Hello. I just purchased a complete fiero with the motor swap. It has a 90 Cadillac 4T60 transmission and a 93 4.9 LT. The funny thing is the computer is from a 90 mustang 5.0 HO. I drove it 140 miles no problem. My last 10 miles home it seemed to shift funny from 4-3rd gear a few times. Well when I took it to work this morning the transmission dropped into 1st gear! I didn't know what to think so I pulled over in a parking lot and popped the trunk to see if any problems I could fix. There was nothing I knew. So from there I took it to a transmission shop aamco to see what they said. He told me that the lock out plug wasn't hooked. So I asked him to get ment the part. He said he can't because there are no wires to where One was hooked up. He basically said I was screwed till I find them wires. The plug is black plastic that faces the front of the fiero.
I need info asap. This is/ will be my daily driver and very upsetting that this has happened. Please post if you know anything. Thanks

It takes time for people to figure out and post a possible answer for a hybrid like yours. A Mustang ECM with Caddy engine???

I'm pretty sure NOBODY here has that combination making it even harder. Even someone looking at the car in person with you will have a hard time figuring out what's going on, never mind trying to diagnose this by "remote". If "it worked fine before" it seems something has come unplugged somewhere - just gotta keep looking. What about the guy you bought it from? Give him (assuming he built it) a call for some help??

In the meantime - patience - don't post the same question all over the place.... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/084453.html

------------------
My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

This is starting to be a nightmare. Ok how hard would it be to get the right Cadillac stuff hooked up and take the Ford out. I know nothing about this BS that's why I haven't done my own swaps.

Ruffy, I'm pretty sure the connector you are refering to is for the lock-up torque converter, as I believe that was the only thing electronically controlled in the 4T60. It really should not not effect how the transmission shifts, other than the torque converter will never lock. Locking torque converters didn't even exist until the late 80's.

It sounds very odd that someone would use such a combo of engine/tranny/control system? I don't know if the mustang ecm had TCC ability, or how well it would control the TCC of a 4T60 vs a ford AOD? I suppose you could try finding pinouts of the mustang ecm and if it has TCC ability, you could try wirring it in. Unfortunately, it almost sounds like something is going out in the transmission?

Have you checked fluid level and condition yet? Maybe drop the pan to inspect for debris?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...geName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

That's my car and all info not sure if it has tcc or even what that is

TCC is torque converter clutch. It locks at highway speeds to get better fuel economy and reduce heat in the transmission. A converter has built in slip, this is how an automatic can sit at a stop light in gear. The clutch pack in the trany is still enguaged, but the converter is slipping so the car doesn't move. At highway speeds, there is no reason for the converter to slip and waste power/fuel, so the lock up converter came along and changed that. The lock up converter has a clutch built inside of it that, when enguaged, stops the slipping action.

[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 02-12-2011).]

not having the TCC lock up can over heat the trans fluid. that doesn't help the trans last.

Ok u do understand that info. The good thing is the trans cooler is up front and huge aftermarket one so overheating I don't think would be an issue. I just drove it 15 miles doing 20mph lol. Kinda pissed right now and not understanding why its not going into 2,3,4 or od? Can anyone explain that for me? The fluid was full and nice color.

When in 2,3,4 the car takes off with no slip at all, but only stays in 1st gear. When giving throttle and letting off it coasts, but when I put it in 1st gear it don't coast like normal.
Its just funny how this happened. Driving normal and revvvvv 1st gear it went into. Reverse works and 1st.

quote Originally posted by Ruffy: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...geName=STRK:MEWAX:IT That's my car and all info not sure if it has tcc or even what that is

Let's get real.

It's been asked but I didn't see an answer. Did you call the guy you bought it from?

In the EBay ad it says that he's been a professional auto mechanic for 29 years & did all the mechanical work.

Later in the EBay ad it says " The car has never been on the road. It is a project about 90% done." & that it is a "This is a project in progress !!!!!"

You say you intend to use it for a Daily Driver, yet you don't even know what a TCC is. There is a difference between a Daily Driver & your attempt to drive an incomplete car daily.

If it was going to be a simple thing to make the car a DD, don't you think that the 29 year veteran would have done it?

I would guess that it would be easier to call the guy you bought it from & get more details than to try to get a bunch of Fiero people to help fix something they haven't even seen.

You might get some help by joining a Ford EFI Forum. You might be able to find out if the Ford ECM & harness is able to control the GM TCC system.

Best of luck to you.

Archie

If the transmission is a 4T60, the missing plug only controls TCC and nothing else. If you are having gear selection related issues, that missing plug isn't your issue. Your mechanic probably only heard you had a 93 caddy engine, and its transmission is electronically controlled... but that is a completely different animal.

If it ran just fine for 100+ miles and then started having issues, you either overheated and killed the transmission, or something either worked its way loose, was worn into by moving parts or melted away from heat.

Pull the transmission dip stick and smell the fluid, if it is burnt it will have a distinct smell to it. Check to make sure the TV cable is connected and properly adjusted, check to make sure the vacuum modulator is plumbed (this vaccum line could have gone across the exhaust, so it might have melted). Check the transmission cooler lines to see what they are hooked up to.

IThe guys use of the Ford 5.0 ecm, isn't your issue here. Once you figure out the transmission issue, you can wire up the TCC to only kick in 4th gear and over about 40 mph w/o needing any ecm.

We used a B&M Torque converter lock-up controler on a 4T60 carburated car a few months ago & it worked fine. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BMM-70248/

But you still have to have a speedo input to set it up.

Archie

The fluid seems to be good. Even the aamco guy said it wasn't bad. But the exhaust does go over the trans. There is I believe a vacuum line that is near that lock out plug thinger, right below it. It has a metal line coming from the trans to what looks to be the throttle body. Ill have to get my air compressor and take the line off the trans to blow in to see if its clogged. The trans cooler is up front with the radiator, after market. Now I do see a slum of wires that's held on by a black plastic holder right under the shift linkage where it connect to the trans. For pic go to general chat and look for (on my way to pick up my v8 fiero. Sooo you think the vacuum would do this??? If so I would be Sooooo glad! I just bought the dam thing. Also I don't know anything about wiring up a tcc lol. I don't even know where to look or what to do. Thank you all so much! Ill give updates when I can.

[This message has been edited by Ruffy (edited 02-13-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: It's been asked but I didn't see an answer. Did you call the guy you bought it from? I would guess that it would be easier to call the guy you bought it from & get more details than to try to get a bunch of Fiero people to help fix something they haven't even seen.

quote Originally posted by Ruffy: Oh btw Archie when I did talk to the guy he put 10 miles on it.

The Seller would still be the best source of information. Did you tell him the tranmission has stopped working? Although he doesn't really have to help you fix it ("Sold As Is") it would be nice if he could explain how this thing is put together, why he used the Mustang ECM and anything else he could tell you to aid you in resolving the problem.

Readjust the TV cable first. I'm surprised the Aamco guys didn't check it.
It's important http://home.comcast.net/~fierocave/th125.htm

What it does. http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/index.html

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 02-13-2011).]

He said the Ford computer was better then the Cadillac. More response then Cadillac. As for the TV cable that might be the problem. There is about 1/4 of inch slack at the nipple to the throttle body/ quarter inch poking out.

Ok I finally got a decent day to work on the trans. I do think it is the TV cable! When I turn it on there is no HBO!!! WHY DAM YOU WHYYYY. Haha ok for real now. I checked for vacuum from the trans. It has some vacuum. So I ruled that out. Next I'm now looking at this TV cable. Now from the pics I've seen at stock throttle / idle the TV cable should be not tight but against the tear drop connector end??? That's without any button pushed. Now my cable is hanging out 1/4 of an inch from the tear drop giving it much slack. Would this be a problem?

You need to post some pic's. That T.V. cable can NOT have slack or it's going to cause slippage and your tranny will be toast before you go a mile or two.
Good Luck
Gary

I have a pic but I'm posting all from my cell. It does have slack in it at stock throttle. Is there a way to adjust it on the trans? I called a guy and he said to have the motor running and pull the cable because he's had many that hung up. I tryed this and took it for another ride and nothing.

I was going to use a 4T60 in my current swap but decided to convert to Getrag instead.

---- > On a side note: How the hell did I miss this auction????? (I'm in PA and I've always been curious to do a 4.9 / getrag in my replica (Even though this 3rd SBC is pretty much done). I would have loved to pick this thing up. <-----

I've seen quite a number of the 4T60's and the RWD transmissions of the era really "melt the heck down" after owners "experimented" with delaying the lock-up, eliminating the lock-up, attaching switches to manually control the lockup etc.

When I had my Buick GN's, we did the same thing with the 2004R's and didn't find out that it's not a good idea until we were destroying our trans. (Not that the stock 2004R was really any good with that stock weak / crappy pump in it anyway.... but they could be built very nice as the years went on.

(nobody knew back then..... we just heard...... manually control your lock up so we did.......

We heard, Hey.... let's try a non lock-up performance converter in there and see what happens.... and we tried.....

We increased pressure, did stupid things....... and broke "stuff".

The reason why I mention that (very obvious fact) is to agree with some of the others. The P.O. has (so he says) quite a bit of experience. I would also suggest simply asking him:

1. Is it a stock converter, 2. did he install a shift kit, 3. modify the trans or the modulator 4. what's going on with the TCC and that Mustang ECM - If he did that, he must know something that nobody here decided to try (as far as I know). etc. From the Description, I'm guessing the Mustang MAF was used and he's used the ECM right along with it. (I'd like to find out more info on that.... very curious).

It seems to me that like many of us did when we didn't know any better, that the long trip with a possible TCC problem may be your issue. These things just don't last very long on the highway if there is a problem. It's a TON of heat and a TON of pressure (or lack of pressure) no matter how big the trans cooler is.

Sure... Of course - Double check all of the electrical things but as others have mentioned, there is not that much "electrically" going on with a 4T60 other than TCC.

Thank goodness (not that you want to hear this) that you can try to get the wiring / electrical straightened out and possibly find another 4T60 and have a nice little car there.

Even with all of that. I would also suggest (even if it's costs a few $$$) to take it to another trans shop. Be upfront, don't sound like a know-it-all (but don't get screwed either) and simply tell them:

You have a custom project, you may be having a TCC / converter issue (you bought it that way) and can they guide you in the right direction.

Even if there are no wires for the TCC, they can still check fluid pressure and other things to give you an idea of what is going on with it. Hell, If I brought my GN into a trans shop after manually controlling the TCC, or installing a shift kit and hammering it down the track for 4 months etc, an expert would still be able to diagnose and tell me:

"Hey idiot - your pressure is out of line, you've got debris floating around in your fluid, the 7 vane stock pump can't take that sh*t, and by the way moron, you're converter is locked all the time (or won't lock up at all). .... Let's get some Art Carr stuff in the trans so you can beat it some more..."

What I'm saying is: Even with a custom setup, they could still manually activate your TCC from the connector on the trans and troubleshoot. Hell - we're not the only ones that do custom stuff here. I know a ton of transmission guys that do a lot of crazy custom stuff so who better to ask about a trans issue than a trans guy with the proper equipment to diagnose it. They are one thing that I've never cared to mess with. Other a shift kit, replacing a converter etc, there is just too much crazy stuff to go wrong if you are not familiar - especially on custom stuff.

Ps. what NJ shore are you at?? I'm in New Hope, PA - not too far.

[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 02-18-2011).]

I'm pretty much smack dab in the middle of pa. Jersey shore pa 17740. Lycoming county. As for some of your questions. The trans is bone stock. The fluid was checked by 3 people including me and the fluid is nice color and no smell that would give any indication of a burnt trans. I know what bad fluid smells like big time. I was a huge fan of blowing 904 and 727 trannys all day long being a kid. Hell I bet I went through 8 904 trans haha.

I'm by no means an "expert", but seems to me that if you only have 1st & reverse, it's probably a "Pressure problem",may in the valve body. the converter lockup doesn't affect shifting.

quote Originally posted by Lou6t4gto: I'm by no means an "expert", but seems to me that if you only have 1st & reverse, it's probably a "Pressure problem",may in the valve body. the converter lockup doesn't affect shifting.

I agree and many said the same. I've talked to about 4 people that has put thousands of miles on there 4t60 trans without the lock out wire and no issues. As for mine I really don't (hope and prey) that my trans is burnt. However something is wrong and I need help finding what it is. I'm 90% sure its the TV cable because it has slack in it and lose. All I need to know if there was a way to adjust it where it hooks into the trans.

Ok... well that's a bit of a different story.

It's been awhile but I believe that a loose TV cable results in low line pressure and partial clutch engagement. I guess it's a good sign that your fluid doesn't smell burnt but going to long like can cause some issues that's for sure.

I don't have the 4T60 any longer - I'm sure others can chime in . I don't believe there is any adjustment on the trans side of the cable - just the throttle side.

You may want to check your actual TV cable brackets at the Trans. (Maybe the P.O. is using the Th-125 Cable ?? or possibly something is wrong with the brackets or he didn't modify them correctly etc) The shifter detents are also different between the Th-125 and the 4T60 so the wrong cable etc may only put the trans partially "between" the Neutral and Drive for example. You may as well check that as well.

Check here about 3/4 way down the page (if you haven't seen this already). Maybe something here can help. Look at the Modification for the TV bracket and compare it to yours. P.O. may just be using the stock 4T60 TV bracket. If so, you need a TH-125 Bracket to modify.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
******** EDIT - Scratch some of that. It's been awhile... It's the Shift Cable bracket that I modified not TV. The TH-125 TV cable can be used with the 4T60 so you may be fine.... But hey,, that page still may help.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________


http://spacecoastfieros.com/tech/440-4T60/

quote Originally posted by Ruffy: I'm pretty much smack dab in the middle of pa. Jersey shore pa 17740. Lycoming county.

Hey... Totally missed the PA in your sig. Just saw the Jersey Shore. Now that's a bit further from me... But not too bad..

[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 02-18-2011).]

The 4T60 TV cable is super easy to set. Pull the cable all the way back in the adjustable housing. Then by hand rotate the throttle to WOT. While doing this the cable should pull itself forward in the adjuster tube. It will stop sliding/clicking once you reach WOT and that is the proper setting... this isn't the 125C.

Now everything stated above is only valid if the throttle body linkage was setup for a TV cable from the factory... because the geometry and distance the cable is pulled is very important. If you are using the 94 caddy throttle body, it would not be a factory TV setup. If you are using a Ford throttle body... Ford and GM might use diferent geometry with their TV setups. The 90 PFI 4.5L cadillacs used a 4T60 and would have the proper TV cable setup. Might want to get a throttle body from one of them.

Ill have to see if it has been modified. The funny thing is I drove it 133 miles no problem. Maybe the bracket came lose. That would also cause the issue for the cable having slack.

As for adjusting the cable. I know to push the line in all the way, then push the button, then open the throttle fully till it stops at full throttle. The problem that I have is with it fully pushed in I have 1/4 inch slack. That's without pushing the button and full throttle.

quote Originally posted by Ruffy: http://img14.imageshack.us/...g20110218151824.jpg/ Yay found a way to post pics from my cell. So would this be my problem?

Mine did have a tiny bit of play when the throttle was at rest (Not quite as much as you show there - but some....).

How does the bracket look (I'm guessing it's on your intake) that's holding the TV cable? Perhaps you can move it back a bit to get some of that slack out??

Or... (Temporarily just to see if it solves your problem), maybe you can take a small lead fishing weight (or anything you can temp crimp behind that lug on the TV cable to take up the slack and then go through the adjustment procedures again to see if that affects anything.

I'm sure someone will chime in who has the same setup. I don't think I have any pics of mine that close up. Most of my stuff over here is manual but looking at my old beater 93 1500 Truck, my wife's car etc, none of them have quite that much slack (But they are "loose enough" to move around just a bit). You don't want it so tight that the throttle wouldn't return.

[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 02-18-2011).]

I suspect the issue is the geometry of the TV cable bracket (this happened all the time when guys were converting their TPI camaros to carbs). If it has too much cable movement, then when you set it to be fully extended at WOT, then it will have too much slack. You can take the slack out and it would work again until you wnet WOT (which would pull the cable back to where it needs to be for WOT.

I ran a 4T60 with the 4.3 CPI (factory GM TV cable setup) and still have a couple of the intakes in the basement. The distance between the centerline of the throttle shaft and the center of the TV cable attachment should be about 1.17". If it isn't very close to this, then the geometry will be off. II suspect yours is too long... Readjusting it to set the cable at 3/4 WOT might make it work again until the next time you go WOT (which will readjust the cable and make it too loose at idle).

Thank you guys for all your help! I will have a short day at work again today so I will take pics of my complete setup and post. First I'm going to check that bracket to see if its lose or moved. That's the only advantage of old dirty motors is that you can see if things moved by the movement of the greasy oil haha. However my stuff is new so I don't have this luxury.
Would a TV cable really act this way if it was slightly out?

put this code in your post

[img]http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/7561/img20110218151824.jpg[/img}

but change the last bracket to a square one

Sweet thanks!

Top pic of linkage


http://img96.imageshack.us/...g20110219085518.jpg/

http://img259.imageshack.us...g20110219085454.jpg/

Img thinger didn't work for me

http://img708.imageshack.us...g20110219085427.jpg/

[This message has been edited by Ruffy (edited 02-19-2011).]

In image shack click "links to share this image" and then copy the 'direct' link. You know you have the right one if you past it into the browser address and all that comes up is the picture. Then add [img] in front and [/img} in back *square bracket and you will have it



You can hit edit on this link if you want to see exactly what I used.

The 4T60 TV cable is super easy to set. Pull the cable all the way back in the adjustable housing. Then by hand rotate the throttle to WOT. While doing this the cable should pull itself forward in the adjuster tube. It will stop sliding/clicking once you reach WOT and that is the proper setting... this isn't the 125C.

Isn't that the exact same way to adjust the 125 ??

Lou that was brought up 3 times so far. What were trying to figure out is why I have so much slack. I posted pics of the brackets and I'm just waiting for someone to look at them to see if that's my problem

Edit : I checked to see if the bracket moved and it seemed to be really tight. But also looks like there is only one bolt holding it down so it is possible that it moved forward a bit retightning itself.

[This message has been edited by Ruffy (edited 02-19-2011).]

If you have "slack" in the tv cable, it's not set right. FOR SURE, if the bracket did move1/4 inch, theres your problem. in the picture, (from what I can see where the cable goes through the bracket) it just doesn't look like theres enough room to pull the cable housing "away" from the throttle body. try loosening the 1 bolt, turning the bracket to a point where when the throttle is wide open, the cable is tight, Then tighten the bolt.

quote Originally posted by Lou6t4gto: If you have "slack" in the tv cable, it's not set right. FOR SURE, if the bracket did move1/4 inch, theres your problem. in the picture, (from what I can see where the cable goes through the bracket) it just doesn't look like theres enough room to pull the cable housing "away" from the throttle body. try loosening the 1 bolt, turning the bracket to a point where when the throttle is wide open, the cable is tight, Then tighten the bolt.

I will give that a shot tomorrow for sure. I just hope the bracket will slide back far enough. What if I jacked the rear up. Start the motor, and slowly pull the TV cable to see if it upshifts? Or is this a bad idea?

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: The distance between the centerline of the throttle shaft and the center of the TV cable attachment should be about 1.17"

Have you checked this dimension yet?

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Have you checked this dimension yet?

I must of missed that post. No I haven't. Can I get a pic with arrows exactly where to measure?

[This message has been edited by Ruffy (edited 02-19-2011).]

Hi This is the guy who sold Ruffy the car. Ruffy does the tv cable pull out easily and snap back when you let it go?

Hey bud!!! Yes it pulls out and snaps back