quote Originally posted by Bdub: I've been reading a lot of build threads/construction zone threads where after a while the people just disappear. I always wonder what happened or if they finished the job. What I'm getting at is that I hope your not one of those people! This is amazing and awesome.

Russ is still around. I spoke with him a couple weeks ago and he has been sidetracked doing some upgrades/refinements to his daily driver SBC fiero.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-08-2009).]

If that v12 is the one I'm thinking and uses two o2 sensors, dont get the wires crossed! It will drive the computer nuts. Knew a fellow with that problem even after many trips to BMW they could not figure the problem. Larry, an engine tuner at HP Works tracked it down.

Hi Russ,

I have to say what you are achieving here is fantastic! Keep up the good work and please keep posting up-dates and don't let negative comments put you off. I am very interested in the details of building a transverse v12 configuration for my 1 off I am starting to put together. I was trawling the net for any info, but not expecting to find any info- until now. 10 out of 10!

A V12 in a Fiero would be awesome. I loved the sound of Wallinders BMW V8 Fiero and I imagine this could be made to sound even better.

Would be great if you could somehow get better lit pics of the install later on :-)

Hey, i happen to be building a Ferrari Testarossa bodied Fiero and would love to have a v12 under the decklid. I would like to talk to you about how you made your adapter plate and the over all dimensions of the engine tranny unit. I hardly get a chance to check on this forum due to my schedule and would like to talk to you via phone so that i can get a one time download if possible. I noticed that you haven't posted in quite some time especially after certain individuals chimed in on 1/4 mile times and SC 3800 engines and all that. I hope they haven't ran you off with their limited mindsets. Anyway, I think what you are doing is awesome and many kit car guys would love to have their cars completed with v12 engines (i.e. Lamborghini, Ferrari guys)

I am planning to be in Mattoon (where Russ Fiero lives) over the Thanksgiving holidays and will make it a point check check in and see how Russ is doing.

Stopped by Russ's today and took a bunch of pics.

Frame rails:







Truck - cool part is the entire trunk assy is bolted on and can be removed from the chassis:





Tubular cradle with all the engine/tranny mounts incorportated:



6000 uprights modified for the S10 wheel bearings:


Front tubular crossmember being mocked up:





Tubular front A-arms:




Brake adapters to use the BMW calipers and rotors:


BMW brake calipers and modified 4cy fiero for BMW pattern:


BMW fuel pump setup and modified brackets for the fiero tank:




V12:





Tranny notch and ford starter with bracket:




Intermediate shaft made from a getrag intermediate shaft and BMW drive shaft:


Shorty axle for the driver side:



As you can see this swap is much more involved than just installing the V12...

Keep up the good work Russ!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-26-2009).]

Superb work! Keep going Russ!

watching closely. ;]

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"Be not led astray, bretheren beloved..." -James 1:16.


Thanks, Danyel, for the graphic.

Hey , think we could get some adaptor plate dimensions? my testarossa build is crying for a v12

Just a bump for progress

i spoke to Russ in the chatroom a few days ago and he said its to cold to work on anything right now...

i was wondering why we haven't heard from him.

lol.

it was snowing, here, in the sunshine state. i can't blame him. haha.

well, can't wait to see it done! :]

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"Be not led astray, bretheren beloved..." -James 1:16.


Thanks, Danyel, for the graphic.

Free "I could of had a V12" Bump -

Can't wait to see more of this!

this is incredible what awesome project so worth it when it all done keep up the good work man dont give up on it

HEY RUSS!
keep up the good work! makes a great conversation topic with anybody interested!! Its amazing how many people think that this cant be done, and youd be happy to know WE SUPPORT YOU!!!
im real happy to turn around to somebody and tell them, "theres this guy in illinois that is working on it RIGHT NOW!"

were all rootin for ya, and for wats its worth, well help ya if you need it!

-Richard

ps, cant wait for the final product!

[This message has been edited by DudemanGT (edited 03-20-2010).]

I am new to this site, i found it because i did a search on V12 Fiero. You have a really cool set up and you have done excellent work!!!!. Keep the photos coming...
I am building a 25th Anniversary Lamborghini Coutach Replica on a 1988 2.5l Chassis. Since the 1988 Fiero I bought had a 2.5L engine I had planned to replace it with a 3.8L Supercharged GM Engine to give the Countach kit more performance (having a less than 100Hp motor in a Countach replica isn’t right). I found an engine that was just pulled for a Pontiac GTP that had blown the transmission, I was able to get the engine, harness and ECU at a really good price (engine for sale http://ottawa.kijiji.ca/c-c...e-W0QQAdIdZ197324129 ). I started doing research of how the swap is done and collecting ECU pin out info, and sourcing and pricing for items used in the swap.
During my search on the web for Fiero engine swap information I came across a BMW V12 mated to a Audi FWD transaxle swap into a Diablo Replica, this caught my attention because; 1) the engine is all aluminium (almost the same weight as the 3.8L V6), 2) the engine looks similar to a Lamborghini V12 (in the Diablo) and 3) it’s a V12… and I was surprised to find that these engines were fairly inexpensive and very durable. (you can buy a whole early 90’s BMW 750 V12 for under $2000 strip the engine out and sell the remaining parts and make more than you spent on the car back)
The only problem is that the BMW V12 is put into a Diablo Replica which has an 11” stretch in the engine compartment (and even at that it’s a tight fit) and since I did my stretch in the passenger compartment I had a stock Fiero engine compartment. There is NO way I was going to fit a V12 in there…or was there…

After a little more research I found some people putting V8 engine longitudinally into stock Fiero chassis using a Cadillac 425THM, 325THM or 325-4L Auto transmission, see http://www.fieroaddiction.com/SBCLa.html
After reading this information I decided to do some more research on the reversed installation method mention at the bottom. This seems more logical way of doing the swap, most of your weight is in front of the axle, your belts and accessories (alternator, starter, AC compressor…) are all facing the rear so you have easier access to them, and the orientation is similar to the real Countach.
Before I went out to buy an engine I wanted to make sure that I could make it work, my biggest issue was with this transmission/differential setup the left hand axle has to go under the engine. When the GM V8 engines are used the oil pan is notched to allow the axle to pass under. The problem with the BMW engine is the block is lower the GM block, I knew that I would defiantly have to go thru the oil pan but I wasn’t sure if it would clear the bottom of the engine block. I found some drawings on the web showing the V12 engine, using these drawings I was able to make my own scale using a known dimension and have in access to a 325THM transmission I was able to figure that the axle would just clear the block…with this info I decided to buy a V12 engine and proceed further.

In December 2009 I bought a 1989 BMW M70 V12 with 170,000KM and a GM 325THM Auto Transmission and started to Design and make components to adapt the engine/tranny together. I have all the components made for the engine/tranny mate done now, i will be rebuilding the transmission and adding a shift kit and cleaning up the engine and painting the components. Next I will be pulling the original 2.5L, tranny, and cradle out and start modifying/making a new cradle to support this setup.
You will see in the photos my adaptor plate, for the engine/transmission and a rotator/spacer plate of the transmission/differential. the transmission/differential rotator/spacer plate flips the diff 180° (to reverse the rotation) and pushes the engine/transmission furrther toward the front of the car for better weight distibution. I am estimating 80% of the engine/transmission weight will be in front of axle...also my engine will be centered in the engine compartment, i'm having custom axles made by http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/fiero.php

OH By the way for an engine managment system i found a place here in Canada that does a custom system using GM components and a custom harness...Check out www.choiceautowiring.com look under BMW V12

WHOA!

this looks like an interesting build. Do you have a build thread on any kit car sites? If not, you should start one here! ;-)

its pretty much 2 inline 6 engines all into one engine
Vroom!!!!

quote Originally posted by 88lambo:OH By the way for an engine managment system i found a place here in Canada that does a custom system using GM components and a custom harness

That has always been the toughest part of using these engines. I spoke with a BMW owner who had a stock ECM go south on him, and the cost of a new one was obscene - to the point where he was looking at some sort of after market computer. I think he finally gave up. Too bad he didn't know about your source.

OTOH, I hate dealing with my old V-12 - individual distributors for each bank and 3 Webers per side make it a PITA to tune. On the whole I'd probably prefer to have computer control, except that the later computerized Lambos had engine management systems that made the cost of the 850 Ci look cheap!

Always liked the 850, but it was a large and fairly heavy car - basically a German version of the Jaguar XJ-12. Pretty engine, though - hope this project gets completed some time.

This will be crazy when its all said and done.

No I haven't started any threads, but i will start one here. Sorry, Russ Fiero for jumping in on your thread. I think what you have done is amazing and i can't wait to see it done.

I do plan on finishing this, i have done a few projects over the years and finished all of them. 1987 I built a 17' 115HP speed boat (still have it) in 1994 I spent 2 years restoring a 1971 Opel GT (i just sold it last year) in 2004-2008 i built a Lotus 7 Replica from scratch (all steel frame and hand crafted aluminum body), I drive it during the summer....
Since Countach Kits came out i always wanted to build one, last year one came up for sale near me so i jumped at it...

For you people who question performance there some factors to consider...
1) This is a BMW engine and they are known performers, i had a 1987 Iroc Camaro tuned a bit (300Hp) and my friend had a 1987 BMW 535 (182HP) and the cars were pretty even in performance. next time you have a chance to drive a BMW, put it thru its paces, you will be surprised...
2) Weight of the car the v12 comes from is 4300Lb, the car did 6.5 seconds 0-60mph, 14.8 1/4 mile, pretty respectible from a large heavy sedan...I work for a company the does military vehicle systems and armor where weight is a big concern when adding armor. we usually strip the vehicles of all excess weight to compensate for the armor. the rule of thumb used is for every 100 Lbs removed you gained 10HP if you apply this to the 4300 Lb BMW 750 and the 2500 Lb Fiero you Loose 1800 Lbs = the equivilent of adding 180 HP to the 300HP engine (480HP Total). now saying that i will have no idea how it will perform until it is on the road, but my guess is it will be fast... this is why the 3800SC from a 3800Lb GTP in a fiero is one of the best performance swaps (2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP 0-60 = 6.8 and 15.1 in a 1/4 mile, a Fiero with a stock 3800 engine will do in the 11's in a 1/4 mile)

Check out http://www.exoticcarsite.co...arter-mile-times.htm

I will start a new thread soon and add more photos of the kit

[This message has been edited by 88lambo (edited 04-10-2010).]

Update! Please????
I so want to see this car done. I love the idea of the V12 in a Fiero.

JefrySuko and I visited Russ Fiero over Easter weekend. Russ's LM7 5.3 swap has him side tracked, but hopefully sometime this summer he will get back to work on the V12 swap.

quote Originally posted by 88lambo: 1) This is a BMW engine and they are known performers, i had a 1987 Iroc Camaro tuned a bit (300Hp) and my friend had a 1987 BMW 535 (182HP) and the cars were pretty even in performance. next time you have a chance to drive a BMW, put it thru its paces, you will be surprised...

I have a '92 535i 5 speed. It's rated at 220 HP. The car was substantively the same in '91, which would have put it just a tick or two behind a '91 Corvette... and it had 4 doors. (The Corvette got a big boost in power for '92 with the LT1 at 300 HP vice the L98 at 245 HP).

quote this is why the 3800SC from a 3800Lb GTP in a fiero is one of the best performance swaps (2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP 0-60 = 6.8 and 15.1 in a 1/4 mile, a Fiero with a stock 3800 engine will do in the 11's in a 1/4 mile)

No, it won't. Bone stock an L67 makes a low 13 second Fiero. A pulley swap goes to high 12's, but it takes a good many mods to hit 11's.
The 100 lbs ~ 1 HP heuristic only applies to small changes and is derived from drag racing in which most street cars will get ~0.1 sec quicker in the 1/4 mile through the addition of 10 HP or the loss of 100 lbs.

quote No, it won't. Bone stock an L67 makes a low 13 second Fiero.

I guess the guys with the 3800's claiming 11's with a stock engine stretch things a little...

quote No, it won't. Bone stock an L67 makes a low 13 second Fiero. A pulley swap goes to high 12's, but it takes a good many mods to hit 11's. The 100 lbs ~ 1 HP heuristic only applies to small changes and is derived from drag racing in which most street cars will get ~0.1 sec quicker in the 1/4 mile through the addition of 10 HP or the loss of 100 lbs.

you ment 100 lbs ~ 10 HP right?
Ok say with a 3800SC Fiero you can get 13.5 in the 1/4 and the GTP gets 15.1 = 1.6 quicker...so if 0.1 second = 10 HP "most street cars will get ~0.1 sec quicker in the 1/4 mile through the addition of 10 HP or the loss of 100 lbs" so thats 1.6 seconds quicker /0.1 sec = 16 X 10 HP = 160 HP Gain or 1600 Lb Loss... Yup...10HP/100Lbs

quote Originally posted by 88lambo: I guess the guys with the 3800's claiming 11's with a stock engine stretch things a little...

The claim you probably heard was "11's with a stock bottom end" or "11's with a stock short block" which is quite different than "11's with a stock engine."

In order to bring us Back on Topic as Guru mentioned I saw Russ's creation over the Easter weekend. What surprised me was how much effort Russ was going thru in order to use as much from the BMW as possible. He appears to be quite far along but is being distracted with his other projects. I am going to try to stay in contact with Russ so hopefully I will get a chance to see it when he is able to start putting it together.

[This message has been edited by Jefrysuko (edited 04-11-2010).]

quote Originally posted by 88lambo: you ment 100 lbs ~ 10 HP right? Ok say with a 3800SC Fiero you can get 13.5 in the 1/4 and the GTP gets 15.1 = 1.6 quicker...so if 0.1 second = 10 HP "most street cars will get ~0.1 sec quicker in the 1/4 mile through the addition of 10 HP or the loss of 100 lbs" so thats 1.6 seconds quicker /0.1 sec = 16 X 10 HP = 160 HP Gain or 1600 Lb Loss... Yup...10HP/100Lbs

Yeah, I meant 100 lbs <-> 10 HP.
Your logic/math above doesn't work. The Fiero would have to be a 2000 lb car for what you outlined to make sense.
The Fiero is probably ~1000 lbs lighter than a GTP. Maybe only 800 as an L67 4T65E Fiero is going to be closer to 3000 than 2800. If it knocks an even second off the GTP's time due to being lighter, it would run 14.1. It runs quicker than that because a Fiero has a tremendous traction advantage over a GTP.

There are a lot of factors involved that make applying heuristics dangerous. If you add 10 HP or take 100 lbs out of YOUR car, you'll see ~.1 sec difference. If you start comparing wildly different weights with drive wheels at opposite ends of the chassis, such a guesstimate is going to be WAY off.

That whole 10 hp = 100 lbs argument is a load of bull.

Only accurate for some unknown specific power/weight combination.

10 hp = 10 hp
and
100 lbs = 100 lbs
That's it.

Mass is not related to power!

Anyway, one of the more commonly accepted "guesstimation formula" for quarter mile times is:

6.9446 X (mass / HP)^0.2841

where mass is in pounds

Since mass to power ratio is one of the most important factors in determining quarter mile time (in fact the only information used by this rough approximation) - then use your car's actual mass to power ratio if you want to guesstimate the "equivalence" of mass reduction to power increase...

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 04-11-2010).]

ok ok all i'm trying to say is if you take a 300 HP/345FT-LB v12 engine from a 4300Lb car that does 0-60 in approx 7 seconds and 15s in the 1/4 mile and stick it into a 2500 Lb car its going to go a bit faster...how much who knows until it is tested.
as for 100lbs = 10 Hp it is an estimation of what the car will perform like if you took the stock 750BMW and removed 1800Lbs....

enough taking up Russ's thread on my stuff, Sorry Russ for jumping in on your space...

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: That whole 10 hp = 100 lbs argument is a load of bull.

There's no mathematical basis for it. It DOES, however, provide reasonably accurate predictions for "street cars". Will adding 10 HP to a Pro Stock car even be noticed? No. Will removing 100 lbs from a Lotus have the same effect as removing 100 lbs from a Lincoln? No. However, for a street car in the 3000-4000 lbs range with 200-400 HP, this EMPIRICAL relationship is a good approximation.

I am under the strong belief that nothing gets better 1/4 mile times than a good driver.

Any more work done on this car????

Bump...any updates?

quote That whole 10 hp = 100 lbs argument is a load of bull. Only accurate for some unknown specific power/weight combination. 10 hp = 10 hp and 100 lbs = 100 lbs That's it. Mass is not related to power!

actually you are wrong...weight is part of the formula for HP of a car

HP=weight x (velocity/234)3

and if you take a 4300Lb 300Hp car that will do 1/4 mile in 14-15 seconds you only need 180Hp to do the same time in a 2500Lb car, so if you use this to get a ratio, -100Lbs = +10Hp is pretty damn close...

Bump!!!

I spent the last 2 weeks of June up by Russ and helped him some on a project he is doing for a mutual friend - 1952ish Chevy COE cab being mounted on a 1 ton chevy dually chassis. When I left the cab was off the original chassis and Russ was removing the individual sheet metal panels for repair/replacement.

Some day Russ will get back to this project, but it will probably be a while.

big bump