Made the fixture to transfer the LS4 starter pad to the F40:



F40 needs a trim on the upper two bosses so the fixture can slide into place.

Progress is good! Now I'm feeling impatient to see the result.

Bolted the tranny to the mill and shortened the upper 2 bolt bosses 1" and now the fixture will bolt on.




Room around the two adjacent bolts for a bolt on bracket and welded ears that will bolt to the studs on the bellhousing bolts:



Still have some more machining to the tranny so the starter plate can be slid into place and for starter clearance (the upper web between the two upper bolt bosses needs to be further clearanced for the starter protrusion... maybe more in a day or two...

I've gone back to the LM7 / 282 combo for a 5.3L with a row-your-own. If I can find a 282 tomorrow, it'll be on my '88 cradle within a week, then my CNC-milled adapter plates will be on sale within another week, just under $100. I'll start a new thread on each forum, with pics, if I find a 282 tomorrow.
The F40-MT2 just is not worth it.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: The F40-MT2 just is not worth it.

That's highly debateable...

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: That's highly debateable...

1st gear blows, its not that debatable..

now, if someone could mass produce a taller final drive that will help correct the incredibly short 1st gear, i would agree that it is worth it.

quote Originally posted by stickpony: 1st gear blows, its not that debatable.. now, if someone could mass produce a taller final drive that will help correct the incredibly short 1st gear, i would agree that it is worth it.

Its all about compromises and what aspects each individual values or devalues... it is highly debatable.

Sure, I would like a taller 1st or final drive and there are other aspects of the tranny I do not particularly care for, but there are other aspects I find beneficial. So when I weigh my personal pros/cons it is the right tranny for me and worth the effort/expense to install in both of my fieros.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-01-2010).]

quote Originally posted by stickpony: 1st gear blows, its not that debatable.. now, if someone could mass produce a taller final drive that will help correct the incredibly short 1st gear, i would agree that it is worth it.

I would rather just have a better 1st gear ratio, than a taller final drive. The final is pretty good for the rest of the gears. Messing them up to get a better first is the wrong solution. Might not be as bad on the MU9 though, with the 3-6 gear changes from the MT2.

The funny thing is that most of the people that really complain about it, aren't even using the F40 trans (and I suspect may not have ever actually driven one). And the people with the F40 in their cars seem to just say "yeah, it's not great, but it's not that big of an issue."

Alright back to modifications for the starter mount...

I want to be able to use a 3/8" base for the starter mount so the threads can be self contained, so I needed to do a slight bit of clearance work:


Now you can see that the milled surface is slightly angled to the as cast bellhousing flange (this was the basis of the whole discussion a page or two back). My goal with this setup is to match the precise starter location on the LS4 4T65E-HD tranny, but there is no reason you couldn't make your starter plate more closely follow the bellhousing flange. With the 3/8" spacer not much material would need to be removed along the flange (just a lot of the bolt bosses).

If you wanted, you could just weld the 3/8" plate to the tranny and move on:


Even though I will probably weld the aluminum plate on the tranny eventually, I want to figure out the bolt on solution at the same time. I need to pick up some 1 1/4 x 3/4" steel bar on Thursday to start fabbing the starter mount. Here is a shot of the underside clearance between the tranny and the fixture:


I have a bunch of these tabs, so might as well use them. Here is a rough idea of how these tabs could attach directly to the bellhhousing (be mounted between the bellhousing bolt and the bellhousing) will attach to the bellhousing and how much clearance they have to the tranny case:



The top one looks pretty decent, but the bottom one does not angle over enough for me. If it is mounted on the stud portion of the bellhousing bolt with a washer to properly space it, it fits much better:



Once I get the bolt on unit figured out, I will post some mockup pics on the Isuzu, 4 speed and a HTOB getrag... I am pretty sure the clutch release level will prohibit this bolt on style on anything but the HTOB trannys.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-01-2010).]

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: That's highly debateable...

You don't count, because you figured out your own axles, and have both the skills and equipment to do your own. For the rest of us, we have to spend $800+ on axles, plus the custom shifter situation, plus the starter mounting problem, why do all that when the 282 is already plenty strong enough for a 5.3? Plus what you save on axles alone will buy a hell of a lot of gas to offset the difference in cruise rpm. Plus with serious cams, the MT2's sixth becomes nearly useless.
What you do is impressive, and just for figuring out how to keep your RamJet ZZ4 cool, you deserve a nomination to the Fiero hall of fame, but you don't get a say.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 09-01-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar:

quote Originally posted by Isolde: You don't count...

That is also highly debatable... but not worth the key strokes...

impressive work, I'm looking forward to seeing your completed setup

------------------
88blackchopv8

http://www.foxvalleyfieros.webs.com/

I'm still eager to see what guru ends up with, but just because he owns a mill, ( not CNC ) and takes lots of pics, doesn't make his ideas the best.
I've been told that it's very petty to show what you made, then refuse to sell copies. And I agree. Plus, how's the mill ever gonna pay for itself that way? I have to rent use of a mill, but how many other people even have that option?
The LS4 isn't the lightest way to do the LSx Fiero, though it is the least width at the damper to the far point of the trans. The other way also has more favorable weight distribution, and a lower center of gravity: Put an electric pump up front.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: I'm still eager to see what guru ends up with, but just because he owns a mill, ( not CNC ) and takes lots of pics, doesn't make his ideas the best. I've been told that it's very petty to show what you made, then refuse to sell copies. And I agree. Plus, how's the mill ever gonna pay for itself that way? I have to rent use of a mill, but how many other people even have that option? The LS4 isn't the lightest way to do the LSx Fiero, though it is the least width at the damper to the far point of the trans. The other way also has more favorable weight distribution, and a lower center of gravity: Put an electric pump up front.

Just because his ideas might not always be the best, doesn't make them any less feasible though. The best idea is much more expensive, but neither of us owns a foundry.

I don't know what your beef is, but to me it sounds like you're just ranting and whining, because you don't have the same resources or access to them, as others. I haven't seen any indication that fieroguru would be unwilling to sell some things, but he does have a day job, and I think it's totally reasonable if he doesn't want to end up putting himself in the situation of being unable to deliver products on the side, because of his regular job and life. In fact, it seems to me like he is willing to sell a few of these starter pads, since he's designing them as a bolt-on solution for trans-mount starters.

Not sure what you mean about the LS4 not being the lightest option, but all the 'normal' LSx engines weigh about the same, really. Or what makes you think an electric water pump couldn't also be used on the LS4. The coolant flow is the same as any other LSx.

Fieroguru came right out and stated that he will not be selling copies of his rotated adapter plate for SBC / F40. Go read his build thread. Unless he edits it just to make me look bad. I've tried to be his friend, but it's not reciprocated.
Whining? You maybe, not me. I have access to both a Bridgeport and a CNC mill, for $50 / month, for both. Let's see who else here either has a mill, or such cheap access to one.
And while the electric pump will work with the LS4, who the heck is gonna go to the trouble of getting the LS4 with it's unique water pump manifold, then toss it out to spend hundreds more to do the front electric?
Think about things, research things, rather than relying on others to explain everything to you. Accusing me of whining is a false accusation, but I'm not as childish as you look to me, so I'm not gonna go cry to Cliff. I've tried to be your friend too, but if this continues, that'll change, too.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: I'm still eager to see what guru ends up with, but just because he owns a mill, ( not CNC ) and takes lots of pics, doesn't make his ideas the best. I've been told that it's very petty to show what you made, then refuse to sell copies. And I agree. Plus, how's the mill ever gonna pay for itself that way?

I have never said any of my solutions were the best, just options to consider or ways to start the thought process. I even revise or redo them a 2nd or 3rd or 4th time because of something I learned along the way. I also openly admit I take the hard way more often than not because it is cheaper for me vs. just buying the custom pieces I want to use.

The vast majority of the things I do, I do with full disclosure. There are lots of detailed pictures, information and instructional steps to explain how it was done and what I was thinking when I did it. This is so others can follow along in the process, share their ideas or even take the same path if they choose. If they ask questions or need further detail, I try to answer them the best I can. The only information I have openly refused to share is my adapter plate design when you asked for it...

From what I have seen from your on multiple forums, you have a desire to make and sell stuff which is perfectly fine. However, if I give someone one of my designs and they mass produce it and people start to have issue caused from a manufacturing issue, more than likely my name/reputation will be associated this issue. I am not going to put myself in that position, which means I will not be sharing the prints. If this makes me petty in your book, so be it.

There have been many threads started for the sole purpose of building stuff to sell and I contribute input, suggestions, parts #, etc to help them along in their effort. At the end of the day they can take or leave my information and whatever design they come up with will be theirs, not mine. I even gave you the information about the speedway motors SBC/FWD adapter plate for under $70 when you were working on your swap and needed an adapter plate. Just yesterday, I walked another person through what to look for on his swap/adapter plate and you told him you were releaseing an adapter plate in a couple of weeks... this is one of the fundamental differences between us. We just approach these issues from different perspectives.

I have stated on multiple occasions I have very little interest in being a Fiero parts vendor in general... I prefer to work on my R&D projects vs. trying to make $$$ off fiero people. I have sold a few parts from time to time, helped others modify parts for swaps, and performed swaps for others, but it isn't really something I want to be committed to doing. If someone is local to me and asks for my help, more often than not I provide it and many times without charge. I have had a few people approach me for the parts I have built, some have been sold and others we could not come to an agreement on price. Just a few posts above this, I said I will probably weld on the starter pad for my 2nd F40 setup after I figure out the bolt on solution... Mainly this is so everyone will know it is a possibility and the level of work it would require. If I end up with 1 or 2 of these bolt on starter mounts that I do not need, they will probably be offered up for sale or trade to help others.

The amount a person invests in tools is a highly personal choice and I put great value in them. I have a vertical mill and 2 lathes because I wanted them and chose to spend the $$$ for them. Collectively they cost under $1500 and worth every penny to me. The $$$ to buy them came from parting out my RamJet SBC swap that was near and dear to me and included selling off the collection of custom parts used in that swap. They way I looked at it, is by parting out my current swap, I could get the tools to make every swap I do in the furter less expensive and opening up the opportunities to even more custom parts. I really do not care if they put any $$$ in my hand from sold work, that isn't the reason I got them (and they are the wrong type of equipment to make $$$ on anyway).

I have no beef with you on a personal level, but we do have a differences in opinions from time to time and approach situations from different perspectives (neigther of which is right or wrong, just different).

quote Originally posted by Isolde: Fieroguru came right out and stated that he will not be selling copies of his rotated adapter plate for SBC / F40. Go read his build thread. Unless he edits it just to make me look bad. I've tried to be his friend, but it's not reciprocated. Whining? You maybe, not me. I have access to both a Bridgeport and a CNC mill, for $50 / month, for both. Let's see who else here either has a mill, or such cheap access to one. And while the electric pump will work with the LS4, who the heck is gonna go to the trouble of getting the LS4 with it's unique water pump manifold, then toss it out to spend hundreds more to do the front electric? Think about things, research things, rather than relying on others to explain everything to you. Accusing me of whining is a false accusation, but I'm not as childish as you look to me, so I'm not gonna go cry to Cliff. I've tried to be your friend too, but if this continues, that'll change, too.

As I said, I don't know what your beef with him is, but from my discussions with him, and his comments in various threads, he seems quite friendly to me. And I don't have any issues with you either, really.

I don't have a mill myself, but I know where one is sitting, that I'm sure I would be able to use for free. It happens to be 600 miles away, though, so using it wouldn't be very efficient for me.

And for the water pump, one might remove the LS4 manifold because it just doesn't fit in the stock Fiero bay. It's a neat trick, but it hangs off the wrong side of the engine, for being in a Fiero, and interferes with the decklid hinge. Rickady had to move the hinge in his car for the swap. And for Dogcreek's swap, they cut the neck down, closed off the hole, and moved the fill neck to the side of the head above the trans. The water manifold is neat, but it's not a good fit for a Fiero. I haven't yet finalized what I'll do for the water pump yet.

I think and research things all day. It is pretty much in fact, the core concept of what I do for a living. I am not relying on others to explain everything to me. Of course, research is only useful if there's any information on what one is looking for, readily available from somewhere. And there isn't always, so yeah, sometimes I might ask a question or two. But I'm certainly not relying on hand holding or anything, as I'm doing pretty much the entire swap, by myself. So I don't know where you get that idea at. And I'm not accusing you of whining. I'm saying that you going on about how you think fieroguru is rich, while you're not, and has his own shop equipment, and has the skills to use them, while most don't, sound like you're whining. I don't know what you mean about crying to Cliff either, since I've never done such a thing. And I have no qualms with you or being your friend, though I'm not going to try and meet some artificial expectation of who I should be, in order to facilitate that. I'm me.

Now back to the original intent of the thread please. I'd certainly like to see more progress pics from fieroguru for the starter mount, regardless of whether he decides to sell some or not.

Back to the starter mockup...

This first template is to get the general shape, locate the holes and notches... the final form will be alittle more refined:


It fits!


More clearancing needed on the tranny case will be needed. I think there will be a hole all the way through the case in the front wider portion, but as it goes further back the bellhousing becomes smaller and might not need to be cut all the way through:


These two studs could very well be used to support the rear of the starter mount:

Here is the 2nd starter plate made from a single piece of 3/8", cut to shape on the mill and made a little longer:


Then made the small tabs that will attach to the bellhousing bolts:


Once the rear support triagle was made, everything was welded together:



Installed on the tranny:


Getting closer...

Nice work on labor day weekend to boot

Tranny notched:



Tranny bolted up:


Starter mount and installed:


Starter installed:



Fire in the hole!

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: BTW, this location will not work on any of the other fiero manual transmissions w/o some additional work since the clutch release lever would be in the way.

Any chance in getting you to look a little farther into this? Just curious if it is even in the realm of possibility.

quote Originally posted by Jefrysuko: Any chance in getting you to look a little farther into this? Just curious if it is even in the realm of possibility.

I think the answer is basically get a HTOB trans. You might be able to modify the older Getrag or Muncie in the Fiero, so that you could mount the starter lower on the trans side, by milling off the bump for the starter snout, and welding in a pad for mounting there, as fieroguru showed on page 4 of this thread on another F40 trans. That position would likely be ok on the non-HTOB transmissions.

quote Originally posted by dobey: I think the answer is basically get a HTOB trans. You might be able to modify the older Getrag or Muncie in the Fiero, so that you could mount the starter lower on the trans side, by milling off the bump for the starter snout, and welding in a pad for mounting there, as fieroguru showed on page 4 of this thread on another F40 trans. That position would likely be ok on the non-HTOB transmissions.

Yes, I agree with everything you said. Only problem with that lower location is that it would interfere with where most people mount the transmission to the frame. It would probably be easier to find a new way to mount engine/trans to the frame than a different way to actuate the clutch but I thought I would ask in case there is more clearance than anticipated. I know he had a 4-speed laying around not very long ago which I am the most interested in.

That 4 speed is now in Mattoon, so I could not check it. I was however able to check the 92-94 HTOB and the isuzu tranny for clearances.

The HTOB was made for this solution. The starter pad fixture slides onto the tranny and has close to 3/8" clearance without any material needing to be removed. There are also bolts between the two case halves that could be used for the rear support. Using this solution on the HTOB getrags should be a slam dunk and you might even be able to use a RWD LS(x) flywheel turned down (all subject to overall thickness).



The isuzu isn't as favorable. While the fixture can slide into place, the clutch release shaft is right up against it. There needs to be room for the release lever and a mounting plate for the starter under the fixture... and there just isn't any room. Also the starter body also protrudes from the mounting plate in the center, which is where the release lever is. You might luck out, but I am highly skeptical of a starter fitting in this location.



I assume the 4 speed muncie and fiero Getrag fall into the same category as the isuzu. I will take my fixture with me to fierorama to see if I there are any 4 speeds or getrags sitting out for a test fit. If not, I know where I can have access to a fiero getrag and over thanksgiving I will have access to a 4 speed.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-09-2010).]

quote Originally posted by dobey: I would rather just have a better 1st gear ratio, than a taller final drive. The final is pretty good for the rest of the gears. Messing them up to get a better first is the wrong solution. Might not be as bad on the MU9 though, with the 3-6 gear changes from the MT2. The funny thing is that most of the people that really complain about it, aren't even using the F40 trans (and I suspect may not have ever actually driven one). And the people with the F40 in their cars seem to just say "yeah, it's not great, but it's not that big of an issue."

i have driven one, and the spacing between 1st and 2nd is just fine, and so is the spacing between all the other gears... it is just that the 1st-2nd shift happens so damned quick with any kind of real TQ behind, it is just not practical for any engine swap other than engines with 7000+ rpm redlines. IMO, because the gear spacing is good, a move-up of first is not needed, just the final drive needs to be made taller. any V8 or SCv6 out there will handle the 6th gear just fine, even with a final drive in the 3:0:1 range...

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: That 4 speed is now in Mattoon, so I could not check it. I was however able to check the 92-94 HTOB and the isuzu tranny for clearances. The HTOB was made for this solution. The isuzu isn't as favorable.

Thanks Guru. I figured that was the situation, thanks for the confirmation.

Russ must have that 4-spd then. Maybe I can find time to meet up with the two of you again this Thanksgiving and see the 4-spd fitup in person.

quote Originally posted by stickpony: i have driven one, and the spacing between 1st and 2nd is just fine, and so is the spacing between all the other gears... it is just that the 1st-2nd shift happens so damned quick with any kind of real TQ behind, it is just not practical for any engine swap other than engines with 7000+ rpm redlines. IMO, because the gear spacing is good, a move-up of first is not needed, just the final drive needs to be made taller. any V8 or SCv6 out there will handle the 6th gear just fine, even with a final drive in the 3:0:1 range...

I drive a '92 BMW 535i manual with a Getrag 260. That transmission has a 3.82 first with a 2.20 second and a 3.46 rear. I hate it. It is very easy to get the car moving in first, but you have to rev first to 4500 RPM just to come into 2nd with 2500 RPM. The engine is a 3.5 litre with 210 HP that is decidedly cammy and doesn't pull hard from low RPM. It loves to spin to the top of first, but the RPM drops almost out of the powerband, from the 6200 RPM limiter to 3500 RPM, which is where the engine is *just* coming up on the cam. If you shift first at anything lower than the limiter, you fall out of the powerband and have to wait a beat for the engine to pick back up. The 3.38 first gear in the E30 M3 would be far preferrable.

I like fieroguru's method using the ls4 starter in the original location with a bolt on mounting plate. I picked up a complete LS4 and a F40 earlier this year and finally got a chance to start working on it a few weeks ago. I got the LS4 with the automatic so I'd have something to make a template from. I'm almost done building a template that will allow me to clear the area for the mounting plate. Hope to have the aluminum machined out of the way this weekend. Then I'll start on the starter mounting plate. When the F40 dies, the template should make it easy to make the necessary clearance and then bolt on the starter.

Anyone had any luck figuring out a good solution for the clutch and flywheel? I like the idea of a multi disk and contacted Advanced Clutch Technologies, but they only make em in 11 inch. I read through the earlier posts about milling down an LSx flywheel and welding on a smaller starter ring. Has anyone looked into the overall depth issue? I was told that a stock LSx clutch is 3 inches from the crank to the release bearing.

Here is my LS4/F40 build thread with lots more info and pictures:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000123.html

I made a custom aluminumn flywheel for my LS4/F40... it weighs just under 12 lbs:



The largest clutch for the LS4/F40 combo is the 10" clutch from a 94 Ford Ranger with a 4.0L. You will need to drill your flywheel for the ford pressure plate pattern, but it fits just fine and has the right spline count. Spec offers this clutch in all their stages, and there are even HD versions available from Autozone and a Kevlar version from AC Delco

I confirm my flywheel above fits the engine and the clutch combo will clear the transmission:



Test fit of old clutch:



In the transmission. I was able to spin the engine over about 10 times by hand w/o any rubbing/scraping:


I had plug an o-ring on the input shaft to see how deep the clutch hub rests on the shaft... about 1":


Some of the later model 4.0L ranger clutches go up to 10 3/16", but those versions use an auto adjusting pressure plate and Spec said to avoid them for any type of performance use.

If you really want a multi-disk clutch, look for a dual 7 1/4" disk clutch from the ford 2300. It has the same 23Tx1 spline as the F40 and used versions show up on ebay every now and then.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Brezentski: I like fieroguru's method using the ls4 starter in the original location with a bolt on mounting plate. I picked up a complete LS4 and a F40 earlier this year and finally got a chance to start working on it a few weeks ago. I got the LS4 with the automatic so I'd have something to make a template from. I'm almost done building a template that will allow me to clear the area for the mounting plate. Hope to have the aluminum machined out of the way this weekend. Then I'll start on the starter mounting plate. When the F40 dies, the template should make it easy to make the necessary clearance and then bolt on the starter. Anyone had any luck figuring out a good solution for the clutch and flywheel? I like the idea of a multi disk and contacted Advanced Clutch Technologies, but they only make em in 11 inch. I read through the earlier posts about milling down an LSx flywheel and welding on a smaller starter ring. Has anyone looked into the overall depth issue? I was told that a stock LSx clutch is 3 inches from the crank to the release bearing.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000123.html