There's your solution right there. For anyone following this who thinks the starter belongs on the engine, I'm still working on it.

isolde it doesn't look like he had to mod the f-40 case too signifigantly. i know you're thinking you're going to frag your f40, but you may not. i would think using this starter, or that ford starter which should have even less clearance issues, would be the way to go. i've been thinking about an engine mounted starter and you're going to have to fab up some pretty custom brackets to mount it there.

this solution looks pretty straightforward and most important, EASY, with very little fabrication. besides if you have to change to the nsx trans you may need the starter in a different position to clear important parts of the new trans anyways, thus requiring even more fab work. either this starter or that ford starter mounted on the trans case looks to be the best solution for me

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88blackchopv8

[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 07-08-2009).]

I really do hope it works out for you. I think we're not in competition, I think that life is not a zero sum game, I think other people's success is no threat or harm to me. So that's why, I think, you should believe I'm honestly glad to see this. If I can help, I'll be glad to. I have that '95 Probe 2.5 (Mazda) starter you can try if you want.

The ford starter has the same general shape and should work as well, I just do not know about the bolt pattern. It would most likely be the preferred starter for the guys keeping the stock fiero ring gear... I just have too much of the nissan stuff right now and wanted to keep the nissan ring gear.

If you want to send me the ford starter, I can play around with it and see how close it would be w/o anyone else needing to take the knife to the F40.

definitely not a competition, you'll most likely finish yours well before mine. i don't care who's first, i'm just liking the exchange of ideas going on here. i'm looking for the simplest, most reliable, solutions possible to make this swap a relatively easy option for anyone wanting to perform it.

as for what parts you use, it really doesn't matter, as long as it works. if the nissan stuff works for you that's great. heck i may even end up using the same parts. the only advantages i see with the ford starter vs. the nissan is there seems to be less of a clearance issue [the pinion is hanging out there all by itself, well clear of the end housing/motor] and the gear will mesh with a stock, so to speak, ring gear. but the nissan starter mount points may be better suited to this swap than the ford unit, from your pics it doesn't look like you'll have much of an issue getting it solidly mounted to the case. the ford starter looks like it possibly will take less highly customized flywheel parts to work. hopefully it will mount similarly as easy. at any rate it looks like you definitly have a viable solution.

thanks for your time, chris

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88blackchopv8

I'll post just as soon as I finish taking the starter off the '95 Ford Probe GT with the Mazda-designed 2.5L V6. This Probe is getting an '82-up camaro floorpan, a Moser 12-bolt rear axle, a Chevy Astro AWD transfer case and 3.42:1 front diff, just like the Syclone/Typhoon, a 4L60E from a '95 Camaro 3800, but rebuilt with the tailshaft and housing from a K1500 4x4 fullsize halfton pickup, so it'll attach to the Astro transfer case. The engine will be a TwinDualCam 3.4 with a rear turbo. This should give me 400 horses on pump gas, and emissions legality. I plan on 17x8.5" wheels with 225/40 tires, or 235s if the 225s won't fit an 8.5. That's off topic, but that's why I can give away this starter. I have a spare starter on the spare 2.5, but that's harder to get to than the one still in the car.

I did have plans to convert my LS4 over to a 6 speed but that got tossed for several reasons. I wanted to make the conversion in such a way that I could mount either the manual or auto.
The biggest reason for not doing the manual is SMOG requirements. I wish CA used some common sense in regulating "smog".
I would LOVE a 6 speed on this LS4.

I admit I have not read the entire thread so I hope you don't get upset with a question that may have been asked before. " Will the stock LS4 starter work mounted on the 6 speed tranny using a custom mounting pad?" " Why not mount the starter to the block like Archie?"

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quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: " Will the stock LS4 starter work mounted on the 6 speed tranny using a custom mounting pad?" " Why not mount the starter to the block like Archie?"

I believe this custom pad method is the one RockCrawl/FieroAddiction is/was working on. It most likely would be further up on the tranny and very close to the LS4 Auto starter location. It would probably require removal or clearancing of the upper two bolt bosses vs the lower two. My only concern with this method is the ability to make it a trim/bolt-on solution vs. having to weld the starter pad to the tranny case.

All LS engines have a Y block configuration. If you use a ring gear that will fit within a FWD tranny, there is no room for the starter on the side (under the oil pan is possible, but highly custom). If you use a ring gear that allows a starter on the side (168 tooth), it has zero chance of fitting within the bellhousing and requires an adapter plate to allow the ring gear to clear the tranny bellhousing bolts.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I did have plans to convert my LS4 over to a 6 speed but that got tossed for several reasons. I wanted to make the conversion in such a way that I could mount either the manual or auto. The biggest reason for not doing the manual is SMOG requirements. I wish CA used some common sense in regulating "smog". I would LOVE a 6 speed on this LS4. I admit I have not read the entire thread so I hope you don't get upset with a question that may have been asked before. " Will the stock LS4 starter work mounted on the 6 speed tranny using a custom mounting pad?" " Why not mount the starter to the block like Archie?"

This is why I'm doing my LS4 into an LS6. All it takes to make an LS4/manual trans combo legal is to bore the LS4 to the LS6 bore size, (which is practical, luckily,) then delete the DOD, install the LS6 cam, pistons, et.cetera, and use the LS6 computer. Also, maybe change the reluctor wheel and certainly have the LS4 crank rebalanced for the LS6 pistons. It just fits better than a real LS6. The LS4 even uses the same heads, just without the hollow intake valves and sodium-filled exhaust valves. This is the route I'm going.

After considering 6 different aftermarket starters, I considered that any of those could be discontinued at any time, so I should choose a starter that is, and will continue to be, available at any auto parts store. So I'm going ahead with the starter from my '95 Probe GT.

i've been looking around for other starters and that ford style starter looks to be the best option with that big pinion gear hanging out in the open. have you worked on your mount yet? will you mount it to the engine or trans?

hmmmn, that's an interesting starter, that one is different from that other ford starter though. it looks like you should be able to make that work as well without too much trouble. it looks like you're thinking of a trans mount for the starter from your pics. it looks like this starter was originally mounted similarly to a trans mounted starter, does this starter have the correct rotation for where you're looking to mount it?

[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 08-31-2009).]

This starter was mounted to the Probe T's 5-speed manual, much the same as the GM LS4 O.E. mounting location. My schedule has some free time next week and the week after, so I should have my F40 cut by mid-September. I'll take more pics even if I goof something up.

quote Originally posted by Isolde:

I do not think that starter will work. The pinion gear does not protrude past the starter body, so the starter body will not clear the gear side of the case. To confirm, rough measure the distance from the starter pinion to the ring gear (how much it must come it to mesh) and then measure the distance from the starter body to the gear side of the case... I think you are about 3/4" shy of clearing the starter body.

WIth my starter, the starter body itself has about 1/8" clearance to the gear side of the case and you can see the relative positions between the pinion and the starter body in this pic (far left starter):


The other concern I would have is the protruding snout past the ring gear. The engine must have the needed clearance for this snout to fit... just something to check.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-02-2009).]

I do appreciate your giving it some serious thought. I'm not sure of the clocking, whether I want it low or high, relative to everything else, but that may give me some help. I guess the best thing about your post, to my mind, is I neglected to think to type what issues I'm up against, and you brought them to light for everyone else who might not immediately see them. Thank you for that also. I should note that my first concern, whether the starter will chear the pressure plate, has been resolved by further study inside the Probe GT's bellhousing, and comparing it's pressure plate to the Ford Ranger 3.0L unit I propose to run at first. Another unresolved issue is which flywheel, and how deep. I'm thinking of a custom aluminum McLeod, if they'll do it. Because I know they now stock a steel one, for the LSX, intended to compensate for the crank being .400" shorter than an SBC crank. And not everyone will want to put a RWD crank in an already serviceable LS4. The McLeod I just mentioned keeps the ring gear in position for the LSX starter, though they could move it out, and the engine side is ..how best to describe it?.. hollowed out, about .400" to reduce mass.

I am not trying to be critical, just trying to help others come up with a workable solution and make sure they are taking the needed clearances into consideration. I am hoping someone can figure out an easier/better starter solution.

The ford starter shown earlier with the larger gear is probably the best bet to keep a stock fiero sized GM ring gear - it appears to have the needed offset from the gear mesh area to the starter body.

My concern with the snout is the available clearance with the LS Y block. If it is mounted down low (similar to mine) it will be below the crank centerline and with the LS Y-block, the block/oil pan seal surface will be in the same general area...(I do not know exactly how much room there is... not super familiar with the LS line). If you mount the starter up high, you will have to notch out the flange between two bellhousing bolts to reach the ring gear. Since the LS4 has the FWD pattern and similar ribbing, it will need to be notched on the engine side as well. An adapter plate with a RWD LS block would probably only need a hole in the adapter plate... but I am not sure.

I don't feel you're being critical in any negative way. Again, I like your giving this serious thought, and sharing your results. I have a 2.8 flywheel that's been modified to bolt to my LM7's crank, and I'm hoping McLeod will make me a custom aluminum flywheel that takes the 2.8 ring gear. But for now, I'll just keep using this modified flywheel. Where, exactly, on the F40, are you thinking I shouldn't cut it? If you could just get a marker or crayon, or even some colored masking tape, and indicate the area of concern on your own F40, then post a pic, it would sure help. TIA.

The two starter location options are in the general location of the existing starter pad or between the lower two bellhousing bolts on the starter side.

I cut the starter bulge off following an inner rib support as shown here (remember to drill and tap the lower hole futher before doing this). In this picture you can also barely see the bolt coming through from the gear side of the tranny right behind the starter gear... this is why the actual starter body must be offset some.



The other option is between these two bellhousing bolts - probably the least about of material to be removed, but fitting the starter flange in between the bolts could be another challange.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-03-2009).]

Progress, and not. I've misplaced both the digital camera, and the flywheel. I did order the Speedway Motors adapter plate, but it has issues, and is best thought of as part of a template for making your own. Of course I was trying it on my LM7, and had to drill 4 new holes in it to clear 4 bolts in the end cover that holds the rear main seal, but also extends up past the top of the cam tunnel. So, I bolted the Speedway plate to the F40. I'd already done some grinding on the block to clear the bolt heads for this, so the nuts are on the trans side. Even so, I was only able to get 3 bolts. I coulda made it 4 except the lower left/front hole of the plate is sized for the hollow dowel. Anyway, then I bolted these to the block, and again, was only able to get 3 bolts. I need pics to show what I mean. So, until I find my flywheel, no progress with the starter.

AV8, have you made any progress?

sorry but no, i have the engine on a stand, and the trans sitting there next to it in my storage building but i've been playing with the chop on my car lately, this has been on the backburner for now.

Uncle! I'm giving in on mounting the starter to the block, because whatever I make for the F40 doesn't work with the NSX trans. And The car is Right-heavy, even with me in it, so more weight to the left seems good.

First post for me here. I'm planning on an LS4/F40 swap for my rig, even though it's not a Fiero. LOTS of good info that applies to my situation though.

The starter is something I haven't worked on too much, but I don't know that mounting the starter to the block was ever even a consideration.

But you guys are doing all of this the hard way! I have 3D models of these components, so I'll see what the possibilities may be.

quote Originally posted by SGS: I have 3D models of these components

Can you share?

I probably shouldn't. I think our agreement to have access to the files precludes me from sharing them.

All we really ask is you to show pics of what you actually do with your LS4 and F40, not the models. Succeed or fail, pics with commentary is what this forum is all about. Thanks in advance.

Oh, sharing pics is not a problem at all, and I plan to do that. I'll work on the starter issue some this weekend.

I'm intrigued by trying to mount the starter in some method than other to the trans simply because if you ever need to replace the trans, you have to make those mods again to account for the starter. Murphy's law being what it is, I'd just feel more comfortable without having to hack the trans case up.

Just in looking at other pics as well as the models I have, one of the big issues with mounting the starter to the engine is that the LS4 block, being basically like the other LS blocks, has a width that's conducive to the larger flywheel used with the regular V8 bellhousing. Passenger side CV axle and oil filter interference notwithstanding, I don't know that you could mount a starter to the engine because the block itself is in the way - the diameter of the flywheel is simply too small.

This is all from memory as, like I said, I haven't even worried about addressing the starter. The other issues for my application have been far more pressing to determine if I can even use this drivetrain setup. But I'll take a gander this weekend and see if I can help the cause.

quote Originally posted by SGS: I probably shouldn't. I think our agreement to have access to the files precludes me from sharing them.

Yeah, I figured. I have been trying to figure out how to get solid models for even a standard SBC for awhile now. If I had access like you obviously do it would be much easier to figure some of these things out.

Actually, the SBC stuff would probably be impossible. We have access to the files through SEMA, and the newer the better, since they go directly to GM to provide the solid models. Some of the older stuff I have asked for (and by older, I'm talking 5-6 years) isn't available.

Ok, a few pics and thoughts on the start issue. First off, mounting to the block in a "conventional" way is going to be a bear.



The above pic shows the LS4 and the front half of the F40. I have highlighted the ring gear on the flywheel. As you can see, the ring gear isn't really ascessible because the block obscures it. So, if you could mount a starter to this side, you have no way to engage it with the ring gear without mods to the block.

On the other side......



There's potential access to the flywheel ring gear, but now you have this minor problem of the starter and the RH CV axle wanting to occupy the same space. So that's not an option either. Now we see why GM chose the starter location they did.

This pic shows the F40 case with the LS4 starter in the location it would be in with the factory slushbox that comes attached to the LS4.



And this is what that front section of the trans looks like.....



Now, it's EASY to mod the case of the F40...in a computer at least....



We need to drill two holes for the mounting bolts of the starter. Then we have to cut away a portion of the case for the starter drive to occupy. Finally, we have to cut off the mounting bosses that would be in the way. That will allow the starter to be mounted. You'd still have to use some spacers or shims to space the starter out to the correct position. Fortunately (according to these models at least), the surface on the F40 where the starter would bolt through is flat. It's also parallel to the starter mounting surface along the axial direction of the trans...which helps a lot. But it IS not parallel in other direction (between the bolt holes). It's 3* off. Since you have to space it/shim it anyway, I don't think that's a big deal.

Now....



These bolt holes protrude right into the area where the ring gear for the flywheel is. The only thing I can envision here is using studs with a weak threadlocker instead of bolts, and then make damn sure that the studs are ground/trimmed for clearance on the inside of the case so as to not make contact with the flywheel.

A "dead on" look at the trans case and where the starter needs to be:



So let the discussions begin.

Another option to consider would be to hack off the "bulge" in the F40 case meant for the factory G6 starter and somehow mount the LS4 (or some other starter) there.

And another way out there option that could possibly be the closest to mounting the starter to the block would be to utilize a standard rotation starter and some sort of an idler gear between the flywheel and starter drive. The idler would correct for the fact that the starter spins the "wrong" way, and it would space the starter away from the flywheel, giving us a chance to fab some bracketry to mount it to the LS4. Then the starter would sit alongside the oil filter. The complication in this is that the idler gear would have to retract away from the flywheel at all times when the starter is not engaged, just as the starter drive does.

I don't have any way to illustrate but there's a good chunk of the LS4 block that can be hacked off without any problems. It's where we'd like to put the starter to match the pocket in the F40. But even if we hacked that, the oil passages in the block would still require some mods to let us put an offset-nose, gear-reduction starter.
Using the RWD LSx blocks with Archie's kit takes care of the starter, but I'm spending most of my efforts on trying to do the RWD LSx with a 1/8"-thick steel adapter plate. While using a plate isn't necessary with the LS4, I'm thinking it'd provide something to weld starter bracketry to. I have 2 different adapter plates, and I don't like either of them, so I'm working on my own. It should be finalized in about 2 weeks.

The advantage to using the RWD block and archie's kit is that you can use the V8 flywheel, which solves quite a few problems. In that scenario, the starter is farther away from the block.

As far as clearancing the block....just from looking at the model, it looks like a decent amount of material would have to be removed from the block and the oil pan. The 3D model I have doesn't have internal engine block details, so I can't tell you if removing certain areas will breach oil passages or not.

I'm digging fieroguru's mounting method, I just wanna see how it all bolts up and is finalized. It has an advantage over the virtual option I showed above in that what he cuts off isn't really structural. Using the LS4 starter in the factory location and cutting the F40 case to accommodate it as I have shown could have some strength implications.

Unfortunately, the model of the case has too many small surfaces and edges for me to be able to mesh it and run any sort of analysis on it to see if the strength is compromised.

Those models are really cool!

Putting the LS4 starter in the same location as it was on the 4T65 would be very nice and is probably ideal. If someone had the LS4 automatic, then they could build a fixture to locate the mount pad on the auto trans and then relocate it to the F40 and build it up from there. I am pretty sure this was the route that rockcrawl was taking. This leaves the bottom two bolt bosses for the front transmission mount.

The reasons I didn't go this route... didn't like the idea of modifying the case within the bellhousing bolt pattern (probably isn't and issue, just didn't like it), this put the starter near the topside of the tranny and I really want to see as little of the starter as possible (I am finicky that way), and the nissan started I had planned to use had the bolts further back so there was no material in this area for me to attach the starter. The downside to this method, is it takes out the lower two bolt bosses, so the tranny mount would have to attach to the top two (or incorporate it into the adapter plate - which is what I am doing).

If I ever get an LS4, I would take a hard look at modifying the oil pan and mount the starter under the oil pan similar to how FastFieros did. Keeps it out of sight and probably no modifications to the tranny what so ever - the tranny already has a notch to access the ring gear in this location.

I am going to start playing around with alumaweld to see how it works and holds. That would be a much easier/faster way for me to modify/weld aluminum... which is a needed skill for mounting the starter on the F40. (I am planning to weld on an aluminum plate to the transmission case to cover the notch I made in the tranny and then bolt the starter to the plate).

I can use the models to design a jig that could be used to make the modifications to the F40.

Ideally, you'd weld up a bunch of material for the factory location, then mill it flat and do the required hole drilling and cutting from there. But this is a lot of work, and if you ever needed to replace the trans, you'd have to do it all over again. I guess from a practical standpoint, you'd simply swap the front section of the case...unless it was damaged.

quote Originally posted by SGS: But it IS not parallel in other direction (between the bolt holes). It's 3* off. Since you have to space it/shim it anyway, I don't think that's a big deal.

The starter gear is round, ya know...

quote Originally posted by Will: The starter gear is round, ya know...

Yep. One of the many advancements on this engine.

The lack of parallelism just makes the spacer you'll need to make the starter work harder to fab.