I have seen in numerous places that certain states forbid more than four headlights.

Texas
"Duty to Display
# Motor vehicles are required to use lights at nighttime, or whenever conditions don't allow a person or vehicle to be clearly seen at a distance of 1,000 feet ahead. At least one light must be displayed on each side of the front of the vehicle. A vehicle can't display more than four headlights or other lights that project a beam that's brighter than 300 candlepower at one time on the front of the motor vehicle."

I have not had time to find it in the 300 page plus DOT 108 standard

This issue will come into play if you are running driving lights in addition to quad headlights (Hella or others).

Anybody get a ticket or a hand slap for this?

------------------
"Now you too can see in the dark."
http://projectorretrofit.com/

[This message has been edited by hairballrm (edited 11-01-2010).]

Every jurisdiction is a little different. In my jurisdiction you aren't allowed 4 low beams, but you can run 2 low beams and driving lamps or fog lamps. Go fig eh?

Best to check with your local authorities to make sure how the law is interpreted. Usually the local police have a traffic safety officer and if you explain you want to enhance your night vision but want to be legal, he'll help you out.

Arn

I'm not sure what the law is in your state, but in Florida you're allowed to have up to 4 headlights shining simultaneously.

I also have the Hella 90mm headlight conversion, and a pair of Hella driving lights. My solution to the so-called problem was to simply wire the headlights into the existing headlight circuit (which only runs the low or high beams, but never both at the same time), and have the driving lights activated by the running lights circuit.

Problem solved. No wiring modifications necessary. Actually, the lack of mods was necessary.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 11-01-2010).]

I guess this car wouldn't be street legal.

Topnotch that looks pretty slick. If. I were you just hook up the 4 outer for your beams.

Most state...

2 or 4 headlight

2 fog and 2 drivers and must be mounted at, or lower than, bumper height.

Any other lights must be covered any time vehicle is street use, Like off road headlight or picture above.

Cops love give ticket for light violators. An equipment ticket and usually not any Point, not a moving violation.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by kikinz24: Topnotch that looks pretty slick. If. I were you just hook up the 4 outer for your beams.

Not my car, although I have one that looks sort-of like it. That one is a prototype that was at the 25th anniversary in Pontiac, MI.

quote Originally posted by theogre: Most state... 2 or 4 headlight

I agree. I know that in the 1960s Oklahoma law used to require that "not fewer than two nor more than four headlights" be illuminated at a time, so three headlights was technically legal but probably unintended, but that has since been changed to the "two or four" requirement.

IMHO, if you're too busy to research the law and find out for sure that you will be in compliance, then you're too busy to be modifying your car.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 11-01-2010).]

Ok, I think it is agreed that local rules will always apply, irregardless of federal standards.


I am working on quad Hella wiring.
Lows will stay on at bright.
My plan is to wire for fog lights.
In heavy weather you will not use your high beams.
In the Fiero, white fog lamps can double as daytime running lights. (doors closed)
I'll use a DPDT (double pole double throw) relay for the high beam.
My second set of NC contacts can be in series with the signal or power circuit of the fog lamps.
Kick in my brights, fog lamps go out.

I"ll keep it simple with the cops,
only four on at at a time

------------------
"Now you too can see in the dark."
http://projectorretrofit.com/

[This message has been edited by hairballrm (edited 11-01-2010).]

My intent was not to "hurt" anyone. My comment was a variant on the old cliches:

"If you don't have time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over?"
or
"There's never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over."

Plus, I don't want to see you ticked because you "just assumed" something was OK. You're looking for a shortcut, but there is no substitute for factual knowledge.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 11-02-2010).]

Well done is better than well said.

Benjamin Franklin

------------------
"Now you too can see in the dark."
http://projectorretrofit.com/

quote Originally posted by hairballrm: I went over section 5.1-4 pretty well, saw no verbiage limiting the number of headlamps There maybe other exceptions elsewhere, still looking.

It's in there... It's hard to read for most people. See "letter type" start at S7.3. Fiero OE HL setup is B type.
Also 2B1 label on DOT legal HL bulbs that Fiero uses.

A = 2 Big Round
B = 2 Big Square
C = 4 small round i think
etc...

Some fog light have legal issues for DRL... Some state fog light use in fog weather only. Real fog light has different focus, not just color. May need a dimmer like HL bulb for DRL use. Also... fog light in factory option uses a relay to Force Fog only with low beam on. Many state give a ticket for use fog light only... (IE typical wiring for aftermarket fog light.)

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

groan

this is bureaucrat-speak at it's finest.
I"ll be at this for awhile

Not sure if I still want to understand OE standards.

BTW newest version 571.108
http://edocket.access.gpo.g...pdf/49cfr571.108.pdf

------------------
"Now you too can see in the dark."
http://projectorretrofit.com/

[This message has been edited by hairballrm (edited 11-03-2010).]

Most states share the same law on this topic. A simple break down on it is you are "legaly allowd to have as far as headlights high beams low beams and fog lights. BUT. Legaly and its a hard catch but if you run into a cop that knows his laws you can get screwed for it. When the high beams are on the fog lights must be turned off and they must be on an automatic system to shut off when the highbeams are turned on. Other lights that are allowd to be facing the front of the car is running lights/parking lights, Turn signals and turn signals on the side mirrors, They must all either be amber or white to legaly pass inspection in PA at least. Any other colors and your asking for trouble.

This wiring for fog light is legal in all state...
Drawing done by me...

It will allow Fog light only in low beam HL.... Fog light soerce for 12v, try HL motor power before Fuse Link C or D and use new fuse for fog/driver light.

quote Originally posted by pontiackid86: Any other colors and your asking for trouble.

Any color other than white or amber is a ticket magnet most state especially if light flash. Flashing and ticket is least worry... Cops can arrest you. Cop get bent on people posing at Emergency Vehicle... Some state, like DE, won't allow vol firemen and even DE Sheriff can't use flashing lights.

quote Originally posted by hairballrm: groan BTW newest version 571.108

Thanks...

"New" version was expected. NHSTA had a huge file of complaint. HL too Bright was #1 complaint. Aftermarket guys sweat for NHSTA rule...

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 11-02-2010).]

quote Originally posted by theogre: "New" version was expected. NHSTA had a huge file of complaint. HL too Bright was #1 complaint. Aftermarket guys sweat for NHSTA rule...

That "newest" version is still dated "10-1-06."

It clearly indicates that the only choices are two headlights or four headlights illuminated at a time. Daytime running lights "other than ... fog lamps" should be wired to turn off automatically when the headlights are turned on. Headlights must be mounted symmetrically with respect to the centerline of the vehicle, and pairs of lights illuminated at the same time (i.e. high beam or low beam) must be mounted at the same height. Low beam headlights must be mounted outboard of and/or above high beam headlights.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 11-03-2010).]

This standard may not have a revision cycle like other code.
Probably as industry demands, dunno
I acquired the newest link via the NHTSA site.

When we talk about this, listing the code reference is really important.
Where did you find the stuff you just mentioned?.

------------------
"Now you too can see in the dark."
http://projectorretrofit.com/

FMVSS has no time table on update and update rarely. USDOT/NHTSA doesn't change FMVSS because car maker need time to answer new rule...
before is update 571.108... Last update was late 1970s or early 80s i think. Car makers wanted square HL... at time only 2 big round and 4 small round were allowed.

I use gpo but an old link... http://www.access.gpo.gov/n..._00/49cfr571_00.html

"e-CFR Data is current as of November 2, 2010"
Means only database is current... not law/rule is update

Search here http://www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr/retrieve.html i get

code:

---

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 49, Volume 6]
[Revised as of October 1, 2009]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 49CFR571.108]

[Page 299-374]
 

---

note... Hates firefox, gets error. use IE

Also get PDF too. PDF has images and format tables

To meet DOT rule, you need label on bulb/lens. See any HL bulb or OE HL lens. Covered in rule 108 to... Fiero HL bulb says 2B1 Dot and maker name to meet DOT rules.

And you can't mix size, shape, and other things for HL. For example: Using 2A1 and 1C1 bulb is illegal FMVSS. Pick a letter type and stay with it...

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

Yes we are on the same track here.
The old PDF version is good because it allows you to Keyword search rapidly.


This question is anything but clear

Marvin, I believe you where referring to:

S5.5 Special wiring requirements.
S5.5.11(a) Any pair of lamps on the front of a passenger car, multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck, or bus, whether or not required by this standard, other than parking lamps or fog lamps, may be wired to be automatically activated, as determined by the manufacturer of the vehicle, in a steady burning state as daytime running lamps (DRLs) and to be automatically deactivated when the headlamp control is in any “on” position, and as otherwise determined by the manufacturer of the vehicle, provided that each such lamp:

I have yet to find the stipulation within this standard that auxilary or fog lights must be turned off if you have four headlights on.
If you have, please reference the section.

Now, that being said,
My original question was "how many headlights can you have on your car?"

This section limits you to four headlights

S7.4 Integral Beam Headlighting System.
An integral beam headlighting system shall be designed to conform to the following requirements:
(a) The system shall provide in total not more than two upper beams and two lower beams of the performance described in one of the following:
(1) In a four-headlamp system, each upper beam headlamp and each lower beam headlamp shall be designed to conform to the photometrics of one of the following:
bla,bla,bla

Just for fun, to confirm that low beams must be outboard

S7.4(b) The lower and upper beams shall be provided only as follows where each headlamp contains two light sources:
(1) The lower beam shall be provided either by the most outboard light source (or the uppermost if arranged vertically), or by all light sources.
(2) The upper beam shall be provided either by the most inboard light source (or the lowermost if arranged vertically), or by all light sources.
(c) The lower and upper beams shall be provided only as follows where each headlamp contains a single light source


Mind you, none of this really matters.
Local rules will be the ones that affect us.
I'll just have to flag down a trooper and ask.

------------------
"Now you too can see in the dark."
http://projectorretrofit.com/

You can get new version in PDF... On search screen, switch "file type" on right to PDF instead of Text

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

but then you have technology that bypasses current laws

http://www.cadillac.com/escalade/2011/gallery/

Hella chose high power OSTAR Headlamp LEDs from OSRAM Opto Semiconductors for the state-of-the-art headlights that each contain seven OSTAR Headlamp LEDs -- five for low beam and two for high beam. The daytime running light is made possible by a dimmer that works on the low beam, thus eliminating the need for an extra light source -- an intelligent solution made possible with LED technology. Each headlight features a position light comprised of white Advanced Power TOPLED(R)s as well as a yellow Power TOPLED(R) side marker light.

Here's the national regs.
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/ru...ext.aspx?reg=571.108
S7. Headlighting requirements.

quote Originally posted by theogre: Search here http://www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr/retrieve.html

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/ru...ext.aspx?reg=571.108

Thanks for posting those links, which appear to return the latest version available (10-1-2009). Strangely, the similar-looking links posted previously from the GPO site point to earlier (2000 and 2006) revisions of 49CFR571.108.

quote Originally posted by hairballrm: I have yet to find the stipulation within this standard that auxilary or fog lights must be turned off if you have four headlights on.

I agree. But when a government document like this goes into detail specifying how you "may" do something, it is a strong suggestion that you probably "should" do it, and it's often a hint that it may be required in the future.

quote "(a) The system shall provide in total not more than two upper beams and two lower beams ..."

Note that this section (alone) would technically allow you to mount three headlights, e.g. two low beams and one high beam, as long as they meet the photometric requirements, but other sections now require that low and high beam headlights be mounted in pairs. (e.g. S7.5(a): "The system shall provide only two lower beams and two upper beams ....")

quote I'll just have to flag down a trooper and ask.

Probably not the best plan, since the next trooper you encounter may have a different opinion. Be sure and note the date of the conversation, as well as the trooper's name and badge number. Even then, it's not of much value unless you get something in writing, dated and signed. A better route would be to submit the question to your state department of motor vehicles and request a written response.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 11-04-2010).]

Hold the phone

Do we have two independant federal agencies who have their fingers in the pie?

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)
http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+...e+Are+and+What+We+Do

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA)
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/aboutus.htm

The latter is more about commercial carriers.

About that trooper.
I have not tried to outrun a radio in 27 years.......
RD350 vs 5.0 CHP mustang
"Son, I was goin 80 and you were pullin away"
Young and Dumb

------------------
"Now you too can see in the dark."
http://projectorretrofit.com/

I'd say rig up some retractable body panels to cover up your extra lights. Or little flaps or something like those flip down license plates hot rods use.

My brother must have been lucky in wisconsin running this for a few years, he routinely lighted all six up front at night, though he did switch some off for courtesy of oncoming cars, like people dim headlights on 2 lane roads.:

Varies with where you are. I dont think Ohio has a 'limit' on the number of headlites, but it is against the law (even though most new cars have them) to drive with fog lights on when conditions are not foggy and its against the law to have driving lights on at any time inside city limits. It dont happen much, but I did get a ticket years ago for having my under bumper driving lights on driving thru town. It also illegal here to use your horn except for emergencies. I got stopped for that once too...I just honked at a friend passing me the other way and a cop was behind me.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I'd say rig up some retractable body panels to cover up your extra lights. Or little flaps or something like those flip down license plates hot rods use. My brother must have been lucky in wisconsin running this for a few years, he routinely lighted all six up front at night, though he did switch some off for courtesy of oncoming cars, like people dim headlights on 2 lane roads.:

Looks like he was lighting up the two in the back

quote Originally posted by hairballrm: I have yet to find the stipulation within this standard that auxilary or fog lights must be turned off if you have four headlights on.

4 HL is on? Then fog light must be off... Why? Only high beam uses 4 bulbs. The 1_1 (1A1, 1C1, 1G1) bulb is a high beam only bulb.

Example:

quote S7.3.8 (f) A lens for a Type G headlamp incorporating only part of an upper beam shall be labeled “1G1.” A lens for a Type G headlamp incorporating both part of an upper beam and a lower beam shall be labeled “2G1.”

Any other type uses 4 bulb is same but some S7.3.x just don't say... see also figure 28-1 28-2, see how they use the bulb name...

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by hairballrm: Looks like he was lighting up the two in the back

Well, yeah, that too...

Having fog lites on with high beam defeats their whole purpose. Fog lights shine below the fog and dont reflect back in you face like hi beams do. Of course lots of people just turn on fog or driving lights to look like their cool. Ricers always have them on, even on bright sunny afternoons.

The reason I like fogs with high beam is in the stock form the high beam lights up the road only far away, nothing close at all. My new headlights are the hid bi-xenon projectors from a cadillac xlr and fog's are not required (use them as daytime running lights) as highbeam still lights up the whole road.

On my winter car, a 98 grand prix gtp has pathetic headlight and foglight output, so I put some projector foglights in and set them up to be on with/without highbeam.

------------------
1988 Fiero GT

At least some of the newer cars, you cant just wire foglights up to work whenever you want. The dealer has to physically reprogram the vehicle computer to operate them and they will ONLY work with low beams. I dont know how, but somehow the computer will detect them and they wont work unless its set up that way even if you use stock OEM fog/driving lights. A friend put some in his Magnum and they worked directly from a switch to a hot wire, but went off when the tail lights were on. Dealer charged him $100 to program them.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: At least some of the newer cars, you cant just wire foglights up to work whenever you want. The dealer has to physically reprogram the vehicle computer to operate them and they will ONLY work with low beams. I dont know how, but somehow the computer will detect them and they wont work unless its set up that way even if you use stock OEM fog/driving lights. A friend put some in his Magnum and they worked directly from a switch to a hot wire, but went off when the tail lights were on. Dealer charged him $100 to program them.

This car has a BCM... Most OE, and OE option, switches are input to BCM is all. Lights is an output from BCM. Reprogram BCM is simple.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: I agree. I know that in the 1960s Oklahoma law used to require that "not fewer than two nor more than four headlights" be illuminated at a time, so three headlights was technically legal but probably unintended, but that has since been changed to the "two or four" requirement. IMHO, if you're too busy to research the law and find out for sure that you will be in compliance, then you're too busy to be modifying your car.

I wonder if they make exceptions for Tucker, Tatra 77a and Tatra 87 and the like?
Grandfather clause?

[This message has been edited by cone shark (edited 11-05-2010).]

I can say this: When Roush was designing their take on the current generation Mustang, the powers that be let them use 2 sets of fog lights- one up high in the grill and another down low recessed in the fascia. There was one stipulation though. No fogs could be used when the brights were on and no more than one set of fogs could be used in conjunction with the normal driving lights allowing for no more than four lamps to be lit at a time, unless it were rewired of course, but again, that's illegal.
Here's a picture to show what I mean: http://www.google.com/imgre...w=800&sz=99&hl=en&st art=0&zoom=1&tbnid=_AYyml_26yx7RM:&tbnh=148&tbnw=216&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droush%2Bmustang%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D639%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=980&vpy=281&dur=3966&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=174&ty=94&ei=VpPUTJC-CIKZOsv4yfsF& oei=VpPUTJC-CIKZOsv4yfsF&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0

quote Originally posted by retroman: I can say this: When Roush was designing their take on the current generation Mustang, the powers that be let them use 2 sets of fog lights- one up high in the grill and another down low recessed in the fascia. There was one stipulation though. No fogs could be used when the brights were on and no more than one set of fogs could be used in conjunction with the normal driving lights allowing for no more than four lamps to be lit at a time, unless it were rewired of course, but again, that's illegal. Here's a picture to show what I mean: [URL=http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.allfordmustangs.com/photopost/data/3493/RED_ROUSH_WA_STABLE-24_Medium_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://allfordmustangs.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/42357&usg=__nPl9t2TKlaM6GaX_8OZUlyB3Wrs=&h=600&w=800&sz=99&hl= en&st]http://www.google.com/imgre...w=800&sz=99&hl=en&st[/URL] art=0&zoom=1&tbnid=_AYyml_26yx7RM:&tbnh=148&tbnw=216&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droush%2Bmustang%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D639%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=980&vpy=281&dur=3966&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=174&ty=94&ei=VpPUTJC-CIKZOsv4yfsF& oei=VpPUTJC-CIKZOsv4yfsF&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0

You ever play with a STOCK S197? The fogs don't work in MOST cars with the highs on, from these down to the lowly Aztek.

No I've never played with an S197. The last Stang I played with other than my own was a '68 Shelby GT500KR 'vert, and that was awhile ago. I also know that the fogs turn off with the highbeams turned on on most cars. I was just being redundant.

Pretty sure the Mustangs have fog lights in the bottom of the bumper and DRIVING lights in the grill. Both serve completely different purpose. Fog lights are never up in the grill because they wont work there to cut thru fog. Fog lights are generally around a foot or less from the ground to shine UNDER the fog. Driving lights are for making the area in the distance brighter for faster driving on dark roads...theyre brighter and shine farther out than hi beams. Fogs have a short wide pattern, driving has a narrow long pattern.

I had hoped to talk to a state trooper about this, but have yet to run into one.
I did speak quite a few city level cops including two traffic enforcement cops.

My neighbor is a retired from long haul OTR trucking (rolled a loaded log truck over on a downgrade and does feel like being a trucker anymore)
He said Oregon is a "good state" for running extra lights.
I looked over our statute and found nothing limiting this.

The cops I spoke did not know.
One of the with a very knowledgeable air gave me the wrong number.
One of the motor cops (nice BMW) had pulled me over for no front license plate.
I normally stick it in the upper corner of my windshield but had forgot to replace it after our last cone chasing session.
Once he saw that I was a 46 year old, registered, insured, CDL carrying non-bad guy, he could not wait to bail.
I actually know him from jury duty
My car is flat black with a skull on the hood.
He was fishing and fix-it tickets do not generate revenue for the city.
It is only more paperwork, and cops hate paperwork.

My racing (5.0 mustang) buddy who is a small town cop told me he only remembers 3 or 4 code numbers he writes tickets for.
He is only going to pull out the book and look something up if you have done something BAD or are a jerk.
Unfortunately not all policemen are cool.

The simplest thing for us to do is for us to know the law and comply.
Cops are very much like other reglatory inspectors,
they do not want to mess with responsible citizens who know the code better than them.
It is a true art to respectfully say,
"I'm sorry sir, but you are mistaken. Here, I'll show you why."
------------------
"Now you too can see in the dark."
http://projectorretrofit.com/

[This message has been edited by hairballrm (edited 12-10-2010).]