quote Originally posted by Blacktree: Yeah, the 3.4TDC is heavy... about 70 lb heavier than its pushrod counterparts. And most of that extra weight is in the top half of the engine (the extra cams and bigger heads). .

The supercharger and iron heads on the 3800 add up to very similar weight of the DOHC which has aluminum heads

The 3800 and 3.4 DOHC are not at all similar in weight!

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I'll attest to that. My brother had a 92 Lumina Euro that had one of those service crate 3.4 DOHC engines installed in it. He put about 68,000 miles on that service crate engine and never replaced the timing belt. Well, it failed on him while he was doing 70mph on the interstate. All of the info we could find online about the 3.4 DOHC engine said the 91-95 motors were supposed to be non-interference engines (ie: if the timing belt fails, the valves should not hit the pistons). So my brother replaced the timing belt and ended up finding out some valves did indeed kiss the pistons and bent when the belt let go. -ryan

Carbon build up could possibly do that in the 91-95 engines, milled heads, decked blocks weak springs as well..other than that they are not supposed to be interference engines. The 96-97 engines are interference. I have replaced failed belts on several customers cars with over 100 k that did not replace the belt and no problem with any bent valves. I replaced my belt to insure I knew how many miles would be on it after putting about 40k on the used engine and went cheap and didnt replace the idlers and sure enough one of them failed later on but not without warning ( screeching sounds in the lead up to failure in the last few days ) and the engine was at 6800 rpm when the belt went. No bent valves. Plus the cams were custom timed
Slapped on another belt and new idlers and I am good to go for 60k .

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 09-24-2010).]

That's weird, my '95 DOHC binded mechanically when turning the engine over manually with two cams out of phase.

quote Originally posted by L67: That's weird, my '95 DOHC binded mechanically when turning the engine over manually with two cams out of phase.

carbon build up? custom cams?

Annnnnddddd, I've never put the tail end of the car out with the L67, when modded made more than 70 torque over the stock DOHC. I had trouble keeping it behind me before.

quote Originally posted by L67: The series II engine weighs 390 pounds without the supercharger, which weighs maybe 20 lbs. I noticed a huge improvement in handling after swapping my DOHC out for a L67. Not only is it lighter, but sits MUCH lower in the bay.

yeah the 3800 weighs about that undressed, the DOHC weighs about 405 undressed very similar in weight so its only a few pounds lighter. That supercharger sticks up pretty high My dohc sits nice and low but I have custom mounts ..you must have had tall mounts on it

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 09-24-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Erik: yeah undressed, the DOHC weighs about 405 undressed Its only a few pounds lighter...that supercharger sticks up pretty high My dohc sits nice and low but I have custom mounts ..you must have had tall mounts on it

I'd like to see some sources honestly, because all of these numbers floating around are at best hearsay. Wiki puts the S2 engine at 390, but does not go as far as to state what is included, so my guess would be dressed. Any way you slice it, the DOHC is heavier. If you moved the mounting perch 2-3 inches below the cradle, you'd broach the height of an L67 installed with stock or urethane mounts from WCF, Fiero store, et cetera. Not only is the DOHC tall, it's wide. The front cam cover sits at the bottom of the rear window, and the intake manifold squares off with the rubber trunk seal.

I spent 6 hours today crawling over two 2 DOHC's to build a harness - 91 engine and 96 engine. It was a pain in the ass, as is typical of the DOHC.

quote Originally posted by L67: I'd like to see some sources honestly, because all of these numbers floating around are at best hearsay. Wiki puts the S2 engine at 390, but does not go as far as to state what is included, so my guess would be dressed. Any way you slice it, the DOHC is heavier. If you moved the mounting perch 2-3 inches below the cradle, you'd broach the height of an L67 installed with stock or urethane mounts from WCF, Fiero store, et cetera. Not only is the DOHC tall, it's wide. The front cam cover sits at the bottom of the rear window, and the intake manifold squares off with the rubber trunk seal. I spent 6 hours today crawling over two 2 DOHC's to build a harness - 91 engine and 96 engine. It was a pain in the ass, as is typical of the DOHC.

I weighed mine. It comes up to 465 dressed. I am going by the list that has been posted on engine weights (I believe rockcrawl made the list )for the 3800SC which lists it at 445lbs dressed but, it may not be perfect as it lists the DOHC as 492 lbs which is incorrect.

LS4 all aluminum V8 468 lbs
Chev LT1 620 lbs manual (due to flywheel) 562 lbs automatic
Chev LS1 smallblock 497lbs manual 458lbs automatic
3.4L DOHC 492.5 lbs
Cadillac 4.5/4.9L 371lbs (very light for a nearly 5 L V8)
Cadillac Northstar 468 lbs
Corvette L57 505 lbs
Std. SBC crate engine 575 lbs
3800SC series II 445 lbs.
2.8/3.4 L weighs about 348lbs

I have no problem working on the DOHC its tight but the 3800 is too that's a given in FWD apps

The 3800 is ANYTHING but tight. It's one of the most compact motors I've ever worked on. Ever try changing spark plugs on a 3800? It's easier then changing 2.8 plugs! When I first installed mine, I thought to myself that it looked like a toy, compared to the DOHC. The DOHC is huge, and extremely tight in a Fiero engine bay, the 3800 is compact, which leaves much more room to work around it.

quote Originally posted by L67: The 3800 is ANYTHING but tight. It's one of the most compact motors I've ever worked on. Ever try changing spark plugs on a 3800? It's easier then changing 2.8 plugs! When I first installed mine, I thought to myself that it looked like a toy, compared to the DOHC. The DOHC is huge, and extremely tight in a Fiero engine bay, the 3800 is compact, which leaves much more room to work around it.

the 2.8 plugs are harder to change than the DOHC plugs which are easy since they are up top. There really isnt anything to work on the DOHC that cant be easliy accessed within the Fiero engine bay unless you want to mess with the exhaust which can be accessed undeneath with plenty of room. edit: the alt is down below but could possibly be put where the power steering pump was and alot of 3800 guys mount the alt low.

Of course in order to change the timing belt on the 88 Fiero you will want to drop the back of the cradle down a bit since it is tighter than the 84-86 between strut towers

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 09-24-2010).]

quote Originally posted by L67:

Well for the room this is much better than the 3.4L by far! And it give more power and torque but lacks the REV! Being that the 3.4L (according to you all) is harder and more expensive to maintain the 3800SC seems like a better fit for me right now. However, I will need a wiring harness made and I am sure I will bugg the crap outta yall about info for this install. Like I said sometime back, I am new to this and trying to feel my way through. Normally I would have my dad to do this with me but since I dont have that luxory anymore its time for me to do it on my own. (Man I miss my ole man)

I will let you all know what I decide when the time comes. Right now a friend of mine and I are going to get the Dangerous Duke running on Satruday afternoon. Atleast I can get her running and drive it some. The 3800 is looking like a winner for me. (Just gotta find all the extras at an affordable price)

The 3800 is a mouse in comparison, and everything is an arms reach away. You have to have a plan of attack to get things off of the DOHC. I can think of several irritating things at the back of the engine which are impossible to get to from the top.

-The spark plug boots hit the rear window and won't come out. Some members have to drop the cradle a few inches to get the plug boots out - me included. And you're sure not to be able to get a ratchet with an extension down the plug hole. Maybe your engine is mounted lower, but I can't imagine you lowered it enough to get the 10" plastic casing's out. Maybe the newer model plug wires are malleable enough?
-Getting to the bulkhead wires, in case you wanted to add something or push something through.
-The pesky hose connections on the coolant bypass/oil cooler that runs across the front of the engine.
-Also the proximity of the rear header to the firewall makes tying everything out of the way a must.

quote Originally posted by L67: But rev a supercharged 3800 up, it sounds like a cat being tied to a ceiling fan. It's impressive.

That quote is impressive! I found a 3800SC with 140k on it for $850.00 but I am being told its too high. But where can I find one cheaper. Not only that but this one is local. I really dont wanna drive to get one and I know this one runs good and the guy will crank it for me before I purchase it. (After I sell this truck of course) Anyone need a custom delux truck?

quote Originally posted by L67: The 3800 is a mouse in comparison, and everything is an arms reach away. You have to have a plan of attack to get things off of the DOHC. I can think of several irritating things at the back of the engine which are impossible to get to from the top. -The spark plug boots hit the rear window and won't come out. Some members have to drop the cradle a few inches to get the plug boots out - me included. And you're sure not to be able to get a ratchet with an extension down the plug hole. Maybe your engine is mounted lower, but I can't imagine you lowered it enough to get the 10" plastic casing's out. Maybe the newer model plug wires are malleable enough? -Getting to the bulkhead wires, in case you wanted to add something or push something through. -The pesky hose connections on the coolant bypass/oil cooler that runs across the front of the engine. -Also the proximity of the rear header to the firewall makes tying everything out of the way a must.

If you have interference with the rear window self and the boots all you have to do is snap the boot cages. Doesnt harm the plug wires and they easliy come out. Instead of one longer extentions use two smaller, plugs come out easy

If you are going to add something to the bulkhead wiring you can access it from the driver side in front of the engine and of course from the inside behind the center console
Pesky hose connections? Get gates clamps My coolant hoses are stock configured routed and are hardly a problem. What are you tying out of the way?

quote Originally posted by Erik: If you have interference with the rear window self and the boots all you have to do is snap the boot cages. Doesnt harm the plug wires and they easliy come out. Instead of one longer extentions use two smaller, plugs come out easy

I broke two cages trying to just that. Even when they were apart, I had to bend the tops of the stalk, which busted them up pretty bad. How does using two small extension work out? You can't get a 4" extension in the hole.

quote If you are going to add something to the bulkhead wiring you can access it from the driver side in front of the engine and of course from the inside behind the center console

With difficulty, it's hard to get your hands between the cam tower and the firewall, but you're right it can be done. It's just something that's irritating that shouldn't be.

quote Pesky hose connections? Get gates clamps My coolant hoses are stock configured routed and are hardly a problem. What are you tying out of the way?

I had one of the smaller coupler hoses rupture, and it was a choir to get to and change from below. What am I tying out of the way; shifter cables, fuel lines, brake booster vacuum, throttle cable, anything custom installed on the firewall.

Thats the point you break the cages in the middle which allows them to bend and avoid damaging the tops. You put the socket in the hole then the first short extention then the next and twist. pretty simple actually

I have no problem puttinng my hand in there and routing wires or shift cables.

any hose can rupture and most are a chore to change ..antifreeze sucks

I dont have to tie my throttle cable out of the way nor do I have to tie my shifter cables out of the way. brake booster line just naturally lays along the trans side and gets vaccuum from the intake on the driver side

most engine swaps where you have lines and such running along the firewall should be secured no matter what engine is in it

quote Originally posted by Erik: Thats the point you break the cages in the middle which allows them to bend and avoid damaging the tops. You put the socket in the hole then the first short extention then the next and twist. pretty simple actually

Any then how do you get them out?

quote Originally posted by L67: The 3800 has plenty of soul, and its faster than your modded DOHC. Ferrari's break down all the time too. Enjoy the Northstar. By that time I'll hopefully be putting twice the N*'s power output through the rear wheels with my stock junkyard 3800 block. It's just too easy to do.

Have fun with your 3800. Your gripes about the DOHC are frankly, pretty lame. At worst, they are an inconvenience. Don't dare buy any newer cars. They require you to remove several components to get to stuff, not just tie they off to the side.

You might put down twice the HP of Erik's N*, but who cares? The Fiero is not a very good track car. I own other platforms that have members that are into 8's and 9's at the track. Fieros after 25 years are still in the 10's. I think part of the reason is just the general backward thinking of its members. Sorry, but even with 600 hp, you are not going to crack 9's. Good luck with keeping your junkyard engine and drive train in one piece when you do it.

Most people don't buy Fieros to turn them into drag race machines. There are much better platforms for that. They either buy them because they are cheap, or because they are a different breed of car.

quote Originally posted by L67: The 3800 has plenty of soul, and 100% stock, its faster than your modded DOHC. Ferrari's break down all the time too. Enjoy the Northstar. By that time I'll hopefully be putting twice the N*'s power output through the rear wheels with my stock junkyard 3800 block. It's just too easy to do.

I disagree the 3800 is a simple beast
Most autos break down at some point although I disagree with you that Ferraris break down all the time. Got any empircal data to back that up?
I also disagree that your stock 3800SC would be faster than my modded DOHC.
Will never know unless you want to race me...LOL
My N* is set up to put out 400hp NA ...a turbo might be in the future but N02 will definately give any boost I may need althought I seriously doubt I will even have to use it

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Have fun with your 3800. Your gripes about the DOHC are frankly, pretty lame. At worst, they are an inconvenience. Don't dare buy any newer cars. They require you to remove several components to get to stuff, not just tie they off to the side.

And we all know how terrible convenience is.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 09-24-2010).]

quote Originally posted by L67: Any then how do you get them out?

reverse

If you have to drop the spark plug socket into the hole, how do you fish it out?

quote Originally posted by L67: If you have to drop the spark plug socket into the hole, how do you fish it out?

with 2 short extentions and socket connected you pull out, remove the first extention while holding the next pull out some more remove next extention while holding socket then pull out socket with spark plug ..Its no big deal and i can get all thre plugs out within 4 or 5 min max

Ever have a problem with water leaking onto the valve cover and going down the plug wells?

quote Originally posted by L67: Ever have a problem with water leaking onto the valve cover and going down the plug wells?

Yes same goes for the 2.8 which is notorious for rusted plugs ..use the recall weather strip problem solved or make a cover easy enough

quote By that time I'll hopefully be putting twice the N*'s power output through the rear wheels with my stock junkyard 3800 block. It's just too easy to do.

Its pretty easy for me... but other people, idk