As the title asks, what mods need to be done to a 3800SC to get 400HP out of it? No Turbo suggestions please. I want to keep it Supercharged. I'm starting to gather parts for my new project show car and I want this motor to be as close to 400HP as possible without going Turbo.
I'm not sure if I will be using a Series II or Series III motor yet.
If you have suggestions on Brand of parts and links to where to purchase them, it would be appreciated.
Either way you go with the block, you might want to go with the GenV M90 from the Series 3, and an LS1 throttle body (if you don't want to do the electronic throttle swap too).
Gen V, XP cam, IC, small pulley, good tune along with open intake and exhaust....
Thats it? What about injectors, springs, pistons, heads and so on. I just dont see the mods you posted getting it to 400HP. I see 325HP max with those mods.
[This message has been edited by JimmyS (edited 09-19-2010).]
Thats it? What about injectors, springs, pistons, heads and so on. I just dont see the mods you posted getting it to 400HP. I see 325HP max with those mods.
I did forget injectors.....didnt mentions springs being common knowledge you have to run them with XP. Pistons give you 0 HP so no use for them. Heads would be a nice addition to help the flow but not worth it for what they cost. I will mention headers althouh they are a given...
I understand that pistons do not add HP but shouldn't they be upgraded to handle all the mods? Also shouldn't the heads be machined or something to also handle all the mods?
What injectors should be used? What pound springs? What rockers?
There is a lot more involved to get to 400HP reliably than what you are stating.
You asked the question, but seem to know all the answers. Good luck!
I know a lot needs to change but what I don't know are the specs for those changes. This is not my first swap but it will be my first heavily modded swap.
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04:40 PM
joesfiero Member
Posts: 2181 From: North Port,FL,USA Registered: Jan 2008
Jimmy, in my opinion, if you want reliability go with the 130lb springs and a double roller. Your stock pistons will bring you way beyond 400hp. I would also go with either the 42 lb injectors or if you really want you can jump up to 60lb. It will be trial and error when tuning to see if you run out of fueling with the 42 lb ones. I wouldnt get too radical with buying new heads, there are still people on clubGP who can port your heads the right way for much less cash. Anyone with a dremel can really port the heads some, but you really need to know that what you are doing isnt hurting performance as opposed to increasing it. My only other advice is to jump on clupGP and research as much as you possibly can stand before buying anything.
-Joe
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04:45 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
if you want to stay M90, a xpz, warmed over heads, 130 springs, and a double roller is all you will really need. As mentioned the rest such as injectors/fuel system/intercooler are all sorta assumed things.
In this age of "trick of the week" hop-ups and frequently spending hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars for single-digit horsepower increases in late-model performance engines, the viability of turbocharging becomes more and more relevant. It remains one of the most effective power-producing modifications available and also one of the most cost-effective.
As I stated in the first post. "I do not want to go Turbo".
I am building a High End Show Car and no matter how you do a Turbo, It looks like crap! I need my engine bay clean and all that Turbo pipeing looks horrible.
Originally posted by JimmyS: I am building a High End Show Car and no matter how you do a Turbo, It looks like crap! I need my engine bay clean and all that Turbo pipeing looks horrible.
If you're looking to get 400hp+ with forced induction, whether it's the turbo, or m90, out of a v6, you're going to want/need the intercooler, which is going to give you all that piping that looks like crap, anyway.
Dobey clearly has no idea how m90's are intercooled or roots superchargers in general apparently, besides that you can easily make a turbo set up look nice and they deffinently draw more attention at shows then superchargers ever do. Looks are subjective though Ill give you that I personally love the way turbo setups look to me even a nice painted or polished roots is nothing to look at.
As I stated in the first post. "I do not want to go Turbo".
I am building a High End Show Car and no matter how you do a Turbo, It looks like crap! I need my engine bay clean and all that Turbo pipeing looks horrible.
The purpose of that link was to give you some insight on what the engine is capable of in stock form, as you were asking questions about what needs to be done to reach your power goal. According to that link aside from reaching appropriate boost levels, pretty much nothing.
Gen V Supercharger Ported? Northstar Throttle Body & Adapter Plate Short Stack IC 130LB Springs 42 or 60LB Injectors? Double Roller Timing Chain and Machined Cover Ported Heads Headers Fuel Logs Ported LIM XPZ or XP Hot Cam?
Originally posted by FieroFiend: Dobey clearly has no idea how m90's are intercooled or roots superchargers in general apparently, besides that you can easily make a turbo set up look nice and they deffinently draw more attention at shows then superchargers ever do. Looks are subjective though Ill give you that I personally love the way turbo setups look to me even a nice painted or polished roots is nothing to look at.
Lots of tubing is ugly, whether it's 3" pipes, or even braided lines. What draws attention at shows, is either being unique, or being shiny. And turbos are passe. The engine bay is hardly the first thing anyone is going to see at a show. And how much power it makes is totally irrelevant. It's a car show, not a science fair. 3800 swaps are really too common to be something to really draw one's attention at a show. They're cheap and easy, and her name's been painted on water towers across the country.
Originally posted by dobey: The engine bay is hardly the first thing anyone is going to see at a show. And how much power it makes is totally irrelevant. It's a car show, not a science fair. 3800 swaps are really too common to be something to really draw one's attention at a show. They're cheap and easy, and her name's been painted on water towers across the country.
Your right, thats why this car is going to have a Chop Top, GT Style #1 Side Scoops, Hood Scoop, GT Style #1 Sail Windows modded to fit the Chop, Custom 1 off Rear Bumper, Custom 1 off front Bumper, Modified Interior, 18X8 O.Z Racing Back Wheels with 18X7 in the Front and a Modified Rear lip Spoiler. When people walk over to look at the car, the Engine and Engine bay needs to be just as impressive and it will be.
As for being cheap, I don't think so! I will have at least $7K in the motor and thats with no labor charge for the install and modifying work as I will be doing it all myself. The power is relevant. People will ask how much HP it is and 400HP in a Fiero is impressive. While this car will not be a daily driver, it will not be a trailer queen either. It will be driven to and from cars shows. When that ZO6 tries to show off and I set him staright, "Thats Relevant".
You go right ahead and build your car the way you want and i'll build mine the way "I" want.
You are going to have a hard time keeping up with a zo6 with only 400hp
A stock ZO6 is 505HP and weighs 3,175lbs. 400HP in a Fiero that weighs 2,600lbs (575lbs less than a ZO6) will at least keep up and may win. Either way, that ZO6 "V8" owner will be impressed that a 1987 Fiero "V6" gave him a run for his money in his $75K Corvette.
[This message has been edited by JimmyS (edited 09-19-2010).]
You can get a whipple. More boost more efficient plus injectors ic cam valve springs bottom end is pretty solid as long as you're able to avoid detonation. Maybe e85 or race fuel
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01:51 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14278 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
As I stated in the first post. "I do not want to go Turbo".
I am building a High End Show Car and no matter how you do a Turbo, It looks like crap! I need my engine bay clean and all that Turbo pipeing looks horrible.
Lol... Yeah, wiring's ugly too, but if you get rid of it your injectors don't work. Ideas like "Pipes are ugly" and "wires are ugly" just seem to me like cop-outs from someone who's not willing to put the time into those items to make them look nice. Nothing says "quality time" like neatly arranged obsessively organized hand bent tubing that follows the contours of the engine bay.
And why would you actually have 400 horsepower in your bad @zz show cah? Just put on a different throttle body and polish the blower. Don't bother putting an intercooler on it because that involves hoses that are ugly.
Forget the fuel lines, too. They're just ugly tubing.
And... You're not going to get all that stuff you listed into a Fiero (ESPECIALLY with a 3800) and keep the weight to 2600.
Originally posted by JimmyS: As for being cheap, I don't think so! I will have at least $7K in the motor and thats with no labor charge for the install and modifying work as I will be doing it all myself. The power is relevant. People will ask how much HP it is and 400HP in a Fiero is impressive. While this car will not be a daily driver, it will not be a trailer queen either. It will be driven to and from cars shows. When that ZO6 tries to show off and I set him staright, "Thats Relevant".
Sure, anyone can throw money at a motor. You're not looking to do a standard 3800 swap, though it will look pretty much standard from the outside. But seeing yet another 3800 in a Fiero, is by no means impressive, whether it's cranking at 300hp or 400hp. I'm not telling you not to put a 3800 in your car. But don't expect people at Fiero shows to be impressed by it. At shows without Fieros though, there will probably be more wow from the crowd, as they probably don't know what to expect from it anyway.
And you're not going to touch a C6Z with only 400hp. A C5 maybe. But only if they are stock. Vettes don't tend to stay stock for very long.
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08:32 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
A c5z might be scared from a dead stop... but other than that... I dont think any self respecting c6z is going to think twice.
Your best bet will be a XPZ / intercooled setup running on something other than 93 octane. ZZP alum heads would help, but require quite a bit of money and installation is quite difficult. A normal ported stock head would probably work well enough, one with aftermarket valves would help alot more and get you near alum head territory.
Even then, 350HP is going to be the norm, with 375-385 being the extreme.
Unless you get crazy with heads, you are probably going to struggle to spend that $7000. The cam/intercooler setup is around $2000, frilly bits like northstar/injectors/fuel rails is going to be $1000 or so, with head work, probably up to almost $1000 there.
In terms of the turbo or not to turbo debate... it is like taking a 305 and trying to make power out of it... You could bolt on thousands of dollars worth of parts to a 305, and make 350hp... Or you could drop in a newer 350 and start at 350+hp. It is the same idea of trying to get power out of a m90, it is just a small crappy little power adder when you want literally double the power output of it, you are getting a bit crazy. In forced induction setups, your peak power is specific to the size of your blower.
There's a local member here that ran in the 10's with a SUPERCHARGED 3800. If he wants to chime in he's welcome to but I don't want to go into what his engine mods were since I don't know them. Anyone who says you can't get huge power out of a 3800SC is wrong...it just might be more expensive than a turbo setup. I'm going supercharged because I fel the same way about turbos. Too much heat, too much exhaust piping, not enough supercharger screaming behind your head
Darkhorizon's analogy about a 305 vs. a 350 is a good one. Even though I'm going SC, I realize I could go faster in the end turbo-charged. Even so, I don't need 500hp. I've ridden in a lot of engine swapped Fieros and owned several, and 300hp is plenty for me. I think 400hp is definitely attainable supercharged, it just might be a little harder, but then once you're done, I bet the power band on your supercharged 400hp 3800 will look and perform nicer than a 3800 turbo does.
[This message has been edited by MadDanceSkillz (edited 09-20-2010).]
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11:53 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
I bet the power band on your supercharged 400hp 3800 will look and perform nicer than a 3800 turbo does.
Wrong-o. The heavily cammed supercharged setups move a lot of the power out to the higher RPMs, as well as TONS of the torque. Nothing can compare to turbo powerband/torque when dealing with these pushrod/small headed motors.
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02:59 PM
joesfiero Member
Posts: 2181 From: North Port,FL,USA Registered: Jan 2008
The question asked was how to get a supercharged 3800 near or at 400hp. Turbo talk is moot here, looks are subjective and if the OP thinks turbos look ugly then trying to convince him they arent or that a SC is ugly is a matter of personal opinion, its his car he knows what he wants.
Jimmy, my advice is same as before, go to clubGP and search there. Just keep in mind you have a little advantage with the Fiero as far as pulley size and tuning goes due to the weight.
-Joe
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04:40 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
How about a larger blower like a mp112 or a Whipple, should be viable with a $7,000 engine budget.
I thought about a Whipple and I have not ruled it out.
I spoke with Steve at ZZPerformance and here is his suggestions on what to do...
Gen V Supercharger Northstar Throttle Body & Adapter Plate Short Stack IC 90LB Springs 42LB Injectors Double Roller Timing Chain and Machined Cover Ported Heads (Aluminum Heads if affordable) Headers Fuel Logs Ported LIM NIC Cam
Steve agrees that 400WHP may not be possible without very extensive mods but with what it listed above, I should be near 375WHP
My initial goal was to see if 400HP was possible and what I needed to do to get there. 375WHP is respectable and if thats as close as I can get then so be it.
I thought about a Whipple and I have not ruled it out.
I spoke with Steve at ZZPerformance and here is his suggestions on what to do...
Gen V Supercharger Northstar Throttle Body & Adapter Plate Short Stack IC 90LB Springs 42LB Injectors Double Roller Timing Chain and Machined Cover Ported Heads (Aluminum Heads if affordable) Headers Fuel Logs Ported LIM NIC Cam
Steve agrees that 400WHP may not be possible without very extensive mods but with what it listed above, I should be near 375WHP
My initial goal was to see if 400HP was possible and what I needed to do to get there. 375WHP is respectable and if thats as close as I can get then so be it.
Hell I will sell you my 88 3800SC Coupe for $5500 which will give you nearly all those MODs.....It is a clean swap with no wires showing just needs some TLC to get it back looking 100%. Just add to it what you want and you are set.......
Start with an 88 Coupe/Add FB Clip.....BAM.....Got ya an 88 GT look alike....Pull swap, do some cleaning/painting and add what you want....BAM...Clean neat swap....I mean it is that simple......
EDIT TO ADD---Damn after posting that picture I have to say that is one HELL OF A CLEAN SWAP!!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by MstangsBware (edited 09-20-2010).]
Hell I will sell you my 88 3800SC Coupe for $5500 which will give you nearly all those MODs.....It is a clean swap with no wires showing just needs some TLC to get it back looking 100%. Just add to it what you want and you are set.......
Start with an 88 Coupe/Add FB Clip.....BAM.....Got ya an 88 GT look alike....Pull swap, do some cleaning/painting and add what you want....BAM...Clean neat swap....I mean it is that simple......
EDIT TO ADD---Damn after posting that picture I have to say that is one HELL OF A CLEAN SWAP!!!!!!!
Thanks for the offer but i'll just build my own. I have found out thru past dealings, never trust someone elses work.
