After 20+ years of faithful service, the original OEM starter on my 87' GT finally gave up the will to live this week.
It was actually still running, but would sometimes stick engaged to the flywheel when the engine started, or on occasion it wouldn't even engage the flywheel, but would just *whirrr* away merrily, doing nothing until it finally shut itself off.

So I dropped it out of my 3.4L to see what we could see...

Here's the cause of the problem:

One of the "ears" that the bolts go through has cracked almost through, allowing the whole starter to twist out of alignment.

Time for a new starter.....SO...

After searching some old threads here I discovered some discussion on upgrading the starter for one of the newer, and smaller styles from a later model car.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...090907-2-093901.html
Some online parts store searching and couple of phone calls later and I decided to pick up a starter for a 1998 Grand Prix 3.8L to see how it would work...

Here is the size difference between the OEM Fiero starter and the new Grand Prix gear reduction starter:


The mounting of both the new gear reduction starter and the old OEM starter are virtually identical:
(except for the crack and the obviously bent "ear" on the old starter...)


The pinion gears are the same and the un-engaged distance from the mounting hole locations to the pinion gear face measured within .020 of each other.
Pinion gear travel distance to engage measured out to be virtually identical on both starters as well.


The new Grand Prix starter bolted right up to my 3.4L with absolutely no problems.
It should fit the same on any 2.8 V6 as well.
I tested it *without* shims at first, and it engages, disengages and runs perfectly.

(I had not yet installed the metal shield when I took this photo, but it also fit right on with no problems at all)

This little bugger sure spins a heck of a lot faster than my old starter, or for that matter, *any* OEM Fiero starter I've ever heard.
It actually has the exact same starter sound as our 2003 Grand Prix GT daily driver now.

The only bad news about this little upgrade is that the cost of the 98' Grand Prix starter was over THREE TIMES the cost of a remanufactured OEM style starter, ($171.00)
Other than that, the small size and low weight, plus the faster and more powerful starting torque of this tiny thing makes it worth the extra cost ..at least to me.

...........




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[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-14-2010).]

I performed a similar upgrade a few months ago.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/106702.html#p0

Yours looks a little smaller (and lighter), though.

I'm actually surprised this upgrade isn't more common.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I performed a similar upgrade a few months ago. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/106702.html#p0 Yours looks a little smaller (and lighter), though. I'm actually surprised this upgrade isn't more common.

Yep.
Your post is the one I selected the 98' Grand Prix model from.
I could very comfortably hold the new starter in one hand and I would guess it's probably 1/3 the weight of the old one.
Looked like you pics were "dead" in that thread, so I thought I'd shoot some new ones of my own while I did this swap.
Probably not more guys doing this swap because of the cost of the starter I guess, but WOW what a difference it made.

I did this on my '92 Grand Prix GTP. Got the starter from a '98 Buick for $20 at a local junkyard. That new one's sure pretty though. Cleaned up mine with some brake cleaner but it didn't look nearly that nice. You don't see much of it after it's installed.

I busted the starter in my 3.4 car the same way you did, Randy. But it came out in 4 pieces. Still got the core credit, since Advance delivered it to me on the side of I-81 outside Carlisle, where I got to change it with semis roaring by. When it dies, it's getting the same upgrade.

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- Electron Blue '88 GT ZZ430 RPFI V8 5-speed (430hp) {Construction Zone}
- Silver '88 GT 5-speed w/cammed 3.4 (160hp)
- LS1 6-speed C5 Corvette Roadster (475hp)
- LT4 6-speed C4 Corvette Roadster (350hp)
- '92 Grand Prix GTP 3.4 DOHC 284 5-speed (215hp)
- '08 Baja Reaction 150 CVT (10hp)
Keeper of the 3.4 swap pages {OHV} {DOHC}

nice
and it does have another thing which makes it look like a fine upgrade:
a better housed solenoid.
always been a problem with "old style" GM starters - the damn solenoid getting stuck & cutting power to the vehicle, especially when below freezing outside.

I do worry about the gear housing not filling the big 'ol starter hole on the tranny bellhousing. maybe making a new splash shield to cover that up. I do occasionally drive a dirt road, so I worry about stuff getting in there.....

Could you be more specific on starter model?
Looked up in Rock auto and there are lots of choices.
3800 with or with out supercharged. Models that say
1.7 kw. And some that say 2 or 4 doors. Why would
that make a difference?
Any way, any more info would be appreciated.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: nice and it does have another thing which makes it look like a fine upgrade: a better housed solenoid. always been a problem with "old style" GM starters - the damn solenoid getting stuck & cutting power to the vehicle, especially when below freezing outside. I do worry about the gear housing not filling the big 'ol starter hole on the tranny bellhousing. maybe making a new splash shield to cover that up. I do occasionally drive a dirt road, so I worry about stuff getting in there.....

I had not reinstalled the old metal shield when I took the last photo.
It slipped right on over the new starter and bolted up fine. It hides almost 1/2 of the entire starter!

Never assume a new starter use the same shim as the old starter.
If in doubt, "measure" it out.
See cave, starter. It easier or try service man... SM method is awkward at best.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 07-27-2010).]

quote Originally posted by DandRauto: Could you be more specific on starter model? Looked up in Rock auto and there are lots of choices. 3800 with or with out supercharged. Models that say 1.7 kw. And some that say 2 or 4 doors. Why would that make a difference? Any way, any more info would be appreciated.

Auto Zone lists the part number as "DLG9998S"
I simply searched for: 1998 Pontiac Grand Prix, 3.8L
After looking up a few of the cars that "Blacktree" listed in his thread, it looks like the same starter is specified for most of them.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/106702.html#p0

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-14-2010).]

The one I bought was the higher powered (1.7kW) version, because I wanted to be absolutely sure it would crank my engine. But for most people, the 1.5kW version (which is cheaper) should suffice.

quote Originally posted by theogre: Never assume a new starter use the same shim as the old starter. If in doubt, "measure" it out. See cave. starter shim. It easier or try service man... SM method is awkward at best.

Thanks for mentioning that!
My old OEM starter had a whole .030 shim installed.
When I test fit the new smaller starter I did check the clearance *without* a shim first and it measured OK, so I tried it that way and it operates fine.
This may NOT be the case for everyone else though, and you should *always* measure the pinion gear to flywheel gear spacing like the Ogre shows in the cave.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-14-2010).]

I added the page in Cave... starter
Link to this page (since this page has other pages...) and GM shim instruction, which I don't use....

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 07-27-2010).]

brand new at rockauto $105 before pennock's discount (not sure how much shipping but no sales tax.
rebuilt $90

quote Originally posted by theogre: I added the page in Cave... starter Link to this page (sine this page has other pages...) and GM shim instruction, which I don't use....

Thank You for adding this page to your cave. I think it's a nice upgrade so far. I'll see how it does in "long term road testing"
Any "credit" is due to Blacktree though. He and Fierosound really sort of "pioneered" this upgrade. I just did some measurements and some photos to help "prove" this out when I installed mine.

I can see why nobody would use the GM shim instructions.
It's almost *impossible* to get a wire gage in between the pinion gear teeth and the flywheel teeth like they show with the transmission installed to the engine.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-14-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Terry_w: brand new at rockauto $105 before pennock's discount (not sure how much shipping but no sales tax. rebuilt $90

Pennock's discount? How much and what code? Or do you have to call them?

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

I found these starters (new) on Ebay for $65 including shipping. Just ordered one.

quote Originally posted by TopNotch: I found these starters (new) on Ebay for $65 including shipping. Just ordered one.

Now we are talking Oh wait, I don't need one Good to know

quote Originally posted by randye: Thank You for adding this page to your cave. I think it's a nice upgrade so far. I'll see how it does in "long term road testing" Any "credit" is due to Blacktree though. He and Fierosound really sort of "pioneered" this upgrade. I just did some measurements and some photos to help "prove" this out when I installed mine.

I appreciate the compliment, but I didn't really pioneer this starter upgrade. I just used my search-fu skills.

(there are references to the starter upgrade dating back several years, although they don't go into much detail)

quote Originally posted by randye: Thank You for adding this page to your cave. I think it's a nice upgrade so far. I'll see how it does in "long term road testing" Any "credit" is due to Blacktree though. He and Fierosound really sort of "pioneered" this upgrade. I just did some measurements and some photos to help "prove" this out when I installed mine. I can see why nobody would use the GM shim instructions. It's almost *impossible* to get a wire gage in between the pinion gear teeth and the flywheel teeth like they show with the transmission installed to the engine.

Credit? I link this page because: Easy for me/cave, has picture and uses PIP host, and has link to other pages.

GM shim... I has being nice with octopus. Tho GM does tell you how much shim (.040) moves gear toward flywheel (.010).

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

I just did this today and I am very happy with it. I went to the junkyard and asked for a starter for a 98 gtp and they gave me one from a 97 gtp, only $40 too with a 3 month warranty. I think the supercharged engines came with the 1.7kw starters and the regular 3800's came with the 1.5kw. The 1.7kw is the stronger one and is the one you want to get. I am not sure if there is a difference that you can notice by looking at them or not though. I guess I am not even sure if I got the 1.7 or not but either way I like it.

It sounds so much different when you start the car and it starts better. Also, it is way smaller and lighter in comparison. I read a few times that you do not use the starter shim so I tried it without it first and it works great just like that.

Here is a few more comparison shots:

Accoding to ACDelco... Factory starter is 1.5kw. (V6 or L4 use same starter)

Save any amps when starting? No idea.

and note: Use ACDelco.com look up 1 car and click "Vehicle List" on part. Give a compete list car uses part.
example, 336-1915, 1.7kw starter has 64 cars it uses

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 05-17-2010).]

Just out of curiosity, I went back and checked the Auto Zone part numbers and they list the same number for both the Grand Prix 3.8L and the Grand Prix GTP 3.8L supercharged, (DLG9998S)

Advance Auto lists 2 different part numbers
GTP= p/n 96208
GT = p/n 96211

The pictures on the Advance website show that the non-supercharged starter looks physically smaller than the GTP version, very similar to what I got at Auto Zone.
The pictures of the GTP starter on the Advance website look like the size of the salvaged GTP starter earlier in this thread, so without any better info, I have to assume that either Auto Zone is selling the same 1.5 kW starter for all applications, or all of the "DLG9998S" starters are 1.7 kW....
Whether or not I got a 1.5 or 1.7 kW starter, it really doesn't matter that much to me at this point. The new starter works fantastic and is approx. 1/2 the weight and size of the OEM Fiero starter.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 05-18-2010).]

I did this upgrade to a 4 cylinder a year or two ago, and it works just fine with the 2.5

I asked for a Grand Am 3400 V6 starter, but you get the same thing pretty much no matter what you ask for.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: I did this upgrade to a 4 cylinder a year or two ago, and it works just fine with the 2.5 I asked for a Grand Am 3400 V6 starter, but you get the same thing pretty much no matter what you ask for.

so basicly ANY later generation GM starter will do? that sure makes it an easy find for the next u-pull-it visit.

I made a short video comparing engine start-up with the stock Fiero starter and the gear-reduction starter. You can view it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npMMqJsSdGM

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: so basicly ANY later generation GM starter will do? that sure makes it an easy find for the next u-pull-it visit.

Yeah, 3100s 3400s 3.4TDCs 3800s and I believe also 2.2s.

Some parts stores have been selling the gear reduction starters as replacements for the old-style as cores dry up.

Just did this conversion, works great! Thanks

m-a

Just wanted to mention that the DLG9998S is the most expensive,new starter for that model.
There is also the DL9998s that is also lifetime warranty and the valucraft 9998s which is 1year warranty.
I know that starter is also found on a 4cyl 2000 model chevy S10 2wd (bought/installed one before)
So that is another option at the junkyard.
Also,I know from previous experience that though they are different part numbers the S10 starter and the cavalier 2.2 starter are the exact same and interchange-only difference I see is one has a pressed in type solenoid,the other is bolted in.

I will be checking a starter pn 6415s today (1993 regal 3.1) to see if it's the same also,the TGP starter looks to be identical but I won't know for sure till I pull the starter from a 4cyl car today.
I plan to compare a 6415s with the TGP 3.1 starter and fiero 4cyl starter.
I have lifetime DLG9998s and 6415s starters available and my new 4cyl car needs one (along with cables).

I'll post up any info I find to help furthur the cause,mucho thanks to Ogre for the redirect from his cave.

quote Originally posted by theogre: Pennock's discount? How much and what code? Or do you have to call them?

Here's an example: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/081209.html
It's a 5% discount. The code is usually good for about a month. This post does not give the expiration date.
I said Pennock's discount but it is not actually Pennock's specific. They send them out to lots of people (I just usually find them here)

Oh. thanks. Yes I get my code here to. Google etc too...

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 06-23-2010).]