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2.8 3.4 intake. by Hockaday
Started on: 03-03-2010 11:27 PM
Replies: 52
Last post by: DefEddie on 03-09-2010 05:18 PM
Hockaday
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Report this Post03-03-2010 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayDirect Link to This Post
What is the reasoning for putting a 2.8 intake on the 3.4 pr engine? I've always seen this done but never really understood why. ty.

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Report this Post03-04-2010 12:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Sidecar 2M6 SESend a Private Message to Sidecar 2M6 SEDirect Link to This Post
My guess is so that it still looks stock. I don't think there is any performance gain and probably there is some performance lost.
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Hockaday
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Report this Post03-04-2010 12:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayDirect Link to This Post
ok thank you...as i only care about pure performance from doing this swap that is good to know. thank you.

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Report this Post03-04-2010 02:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoDirect Link to This Post
because it fits under the hood !
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Report this Post03-04-2010 03:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ckrummySend a Private Message to ckrummyDirect Link to This Post
because you can use the fiero electrical without modification.
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Report this Post03-04-2010 06:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
There are two basic reasons:
1. Makes the swap easier when you can use all the wiring and fuel/hose routing of the original V-6 Fiero.
Aside from a couple of minor mods the swap is as easy as just changing a stock engine. So someone who has novice skills can do the swap in their garage over a weekend.

2. It makes the 3.4L look like the stock 2.8L which could help if the owner wants to keep it looking "stock" but utilize the better reliability and slight power increase of the 3.4L block. There are some design changes in the 3.4L block that make it better suited for a 2.8L replacement.

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Report this Post03-04-2010 07:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayDirect Link to This Post
so if you used the stock intake you'd have to use a diff ecu?...

( ecu = black magic )

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Report this Post03-04-2010 09:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
because there are few choices.

what other intake is there?

the original Fiero - Free
3.4 SFI Camaro intake - requires either relocating the intake snorkel, or removing the distributor
TrueLeo - $600
WCF - $700
Edelbrock & Carb - one of the more cost effective options

edit - to adjust price - sry

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 03-04-2010).]

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Hockaday
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Report this Post03-04-2010 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayDirect Link to This Post
ah i see, you can't just bring the side scoop aire intake up to the origional intake.

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Report this Post03-04-2010 09:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayDirect Link to This Post

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wouldn't there be no use for an ecu if i went to carb? that really is my prefered method.

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Report this Post03-04-2010 10:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DLCLK87GTSend a Private Message to DLCLK87GTDirect Link to This Post
because the neck on the 3.4 intake interferes with the distributor and basically won't fit without modification to the intake or distributor removal..
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Report this Post03-04-2010 10:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DefEddieSend a Private Message to DefEddieDirect Link to This Post
I've got a 3.4 and 2.8 lower intake manifold,i'll take pics real quick and you'll see the height difference.
When I get to the house i'll put the top manifold on the lowers and set them on a 3.4 motor so you can see what's going on.
Might even have a dizzy laying around I think.
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Report this Post03-04-2010 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for joshh44Send a Private Message to joshh44Direct Link to This Post
maybe if you put a spacer between the bottom of the intake area where the lower half of the intake sits on? make it sit higher but would it clear the dissy? probably would need to add a rear deck scoop so you can close the deck lid.

$700 for a new intake is expensive holy! i didnt think they were that much.
i would go carb for the look anyways. iv always liked carbed looked engines. reminds me of V8s with carb old fashion never seems to leave me.
you could probably maybe put a TBI (looks like a carb) but i dont know how if it will work well or not. i havnt seen one done on a 2.8 or 3.4 before.. dont think there is any point for that really. unless you wanna be different possibly maybe an upgrade??? could use the edlerbrock intake tho. there nice looking. and flow more air then the stock intake system maybe?
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Report this Post03-04-2010 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fyrebird68Send a Private Message to fyrebird68Direct Link to This Post
Your question is what prompted me to start this thread:

//www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/079587-2.html

The answer that I got out of the thread was this:
 
quote
Originally posted by DLCLK87GT:

because the neck on the 3.4 intake interferes with the distributor and basically won't fit without modification to the intake or distributor removal..



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Report this Post03-04-2010 11:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hockaday:

wouldn't there be no use for an ecu if i went to carb? that really is my prefered method.



You can ditch the ECU, get a few different cams and go as high as .5" lift, and get many performance parts from places like Jegs, Summit Racing and P.A.W.
With the right parts you can get over 230hp.
Here is what my carb'd 3.4L looked like:



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Report this Post03-04-2010 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageSend a Private Message to Francis TDirect Link to This Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joshh44:
$700 for a new intake is expensive holy! i didnt think they were that much. QUOTE]


Yes, they cost more than most intakes, they're hand made, very limited production items. We would like to sell them for less but they just cost us too much to make in both custom CNC parts and labor. BTW And they are $600 not 700.

However; no other single item aside from: a carb/intake setup, forced induction -turbo etc- or NOS will give you the proformance gains in both HP and useable RPMs. The Fiero intake is the engine's most limiting factor followed by the headers/Y pipe. The stock intake is so bad that you not only gain more power with a better one or carb setup, but you will also see better gas millage - the engine won't get rich above 4.5K rpm and waste gas. Most other mods, like cams will not provide much help whereas the engine still cannott get enough air in to it. Another plus, going with a higher flowing intake or carb setup will make a big dif power wise and can be done in a day or two. Good luck with your project.

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DefEddie
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Report this Post03-04-2010 12:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DefEddieSend a Private Message to DefEddieDirect Link to This Post
Why couldn't you simply use a 3400 topend setup?
Buy a trashed 3400 (all over the place,they blow gaskets easy) for $100 and swap heads and intakes.

You could do everything for way less than $600 and you would be upgrading to 1.6 roller pivot rockers to boot.
That would be the best option for the most flow imo.
There are details like EGR and DIS conversion etc..,but if anybody cares you can get by that stuff pretty easy with a little work.
I'm pretty sure the 3400 intake swap is a pretty straightforward procedure,i've only glanced over what is required but it doesn't seem like much.
Imo the stock intakes are 10 times better looking than the bundle of snakes and welds of the truelo.
(Francis,not trying to bag on your intake-I just think it looks ugly and cobbled personally.)

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Report this Post03-04-2010 01:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DefEddie:

Why couldn't you simply use a 3400 topend setup?
Buy a trashed 3400 (all over the place,they blow gaskets easy) for $100 and swap heads and intakes.

You could do everything for way less than $600 and you would be upgrading to 1.6 roller pivot rockers to boot.
That would be the best option for the most flow imo.
There are details like EGR and DIS conversion etc..,but if anybody cares you can get by that stuff pretty easy with a little work.
I'm pretty sure the 3400 intake swap is a pretty straightforward procedure,i've only glanced over what is required but it doesn't seem like much.
Imo the stock intakes are 10 times better looking than the bundle of snakes and welds of the truelo.
(Francis,not trying to bag on your intake-I just think it looks ugly and cobbled personally.)


Why did you even bother with the note at the end... You are in fact bagging on his intake and all you did was reiterate it. Its fun to recommend things when you haven't researched or done it yourself, eh?
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carbon
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Report this Post03-04-2010 01:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post

carbon

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quote
Originally posted by joshh44:

maybe if you put a spacer between the bottom of the intake area where the lower half of the intake sits on? make it sit higher but would it clear the dissy? probably would need to add a rear deck scoop so you can close the deck lid.



The mod for the 3.4SFI Camarobird intake is requires cutting a chord out of the back crossover of the intake to make it work. It is not a height issue.

//www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/069539-3.html#p86

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 03-04-2010).]

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Report this Post03-04-2010 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for raysr11Send a Private Message to raysr11Direct Link to This Post
What kind of mileage did you get with the carb set-up? Was that a 350cfm?
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DefEddie
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Report this Post03-04-2010 02:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DefEddieSend a Private Message to DefEddieDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:


Why did you even bother with the note at the end... You are in fact bagging on his intake and all you did was reiterate it. Its fun to recommend things when you haven't researched or done it yourself, eh?


I'm just trying to help any way I can.
And my personal opinion about the looks of the intake don't mean anything to anyone but me,I just stated my opinion to explain the statement before it.
Comparing the two,I prefer the looks of stock rather than the ugly welds and steel.
Sure it could be ground down and coated by the owner,but i'm not getting into a debate about his intake.
He likes it and the owners like it,It just isn't in my taste-and for the flow you could go with stock stuff cheaper I think.
Funny you have a problem with me stating an opinion in the middle of contributing information,yet you just hijack the whole thread with a post to state yours-get over yourself and quit nut-hanging.
I'm sure francis understands where i'm coming from,if not that's okay as i'm a secure individual.
Reccomending things not tried seems to be the theme on this board anyway,it's called creativity and ideas-try it sometime.
If he's interested,he can do the research-but the options are out there.

That said and done,here's the pics I promised.
Hopefully it will show what everyone is talking about to the OP.

This is a 95 camaro 3.4L block and lower intake.



This is the stock camaro 3.4 lower and upper intake from the rear(driver side on fiero) where the dizzy is.


From the front


Rear with dizzy held up to it (I'll pull the cam and cap cover later to install dizzy for clarity.)




This is the 3.4 lower with the Fiero middle intake bolted up.


And both lower and upper


And the upper from the Camaro next to the mid/upper from the fiero.





And of course the most important (had to edit as I forgot)
Here is the Camaro intake in the correct position on the 3.4 block (backwards/rear facing)



Carbon shows a pic where the intake has been notched for the dizzy.
That will work,but you will also need to work out all the other stuff as the intake is facing the opposite direction.
Not impossible or even hard,but most people don't have the tools or talent to do alot of this stuff at home.
Hence why the camaro intake is not a bolt on affair I think.

[This message has been edited by DefEddie (edited 03-04-2010).]

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Hockaday
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Report this Post03-04-2010 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

because there are few choices.

what other intake is there?

the original Fiero - Free
3.4 SFI Camaro intake - requires either relocating the intake snorkel, or removing the distributor
TrueLeo - $600
WCF - $700
Edelbrock & Carb - one of the more cost effective options

edit - to adjust price - sry



I don't know about you but it's rare to find fiero intake for free.

Seem's like i'll probably go for a ram air carbed intake...carbs are much cooler then efi anyway.

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carbon
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Report this Post03-04-2010 03:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DefEddie:

Funny you have a problem with me stating an opinion in the middle of contributing information,yet you just hijack the whole thread with a post to state yours-get over yourself and quit nut-hanging.



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Report this Post03-04-2010 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DefEddieSend a Private Message to DefEddieDirect Link to This Post
Just so i'm not misunderstood,i'm a smart ass and don't ever take anything I say seriously.
I wasn't trying to even be close to demeaning or argumentative with you.
I just tend to state things matter of factly.

I teach a financial class at church,and one of my problems is how I come across though I don't mean too.
The youth pastor's says it's "Tact" i'm missing,and i'm working on it.
I'm sure this is exacerbated by the fact that I suck at the written word and emotion is 90% of percieved communication.
Interwebz owns me.
So if i've offended your sensibilities i'm sorry,I only mean to get a thought across as accurately as possible.

Can we hug?

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

*Oh yeah,who am I? The pirate or the ninja.
Pirate's are freaking awesome,but ninja's are like...well they're freakin ninja's man!
Can I be the Pirate?

[This message has been edited by DefEddie (edited 03-04-2010).]

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Pyrthian
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Report this Post03-04-2010 03:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hockaday:
I don't know about you but it's rare to find fiero intake for free.

Seem's like i'll probably go for a ram air carbed intake...carbs are much cooler then efi anyway.


lol - well - I kinda assumed there was one on the car in the first place....
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Hockaday
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Report this Post03-04-2010 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayDirect Link to This Post
ok forgive my ignorance...but just to kinda settle things...I could go about my business drop the motor bolt in the 3.4 and then put on a carb or tbi...if i put on the carb there is no reason for the ecu. ( the tbi requires one i know )...who ever has carbed or tbi'd these things would love any input of what one you used etc. since i know carbs run about 1100 plus etc...least my trans am's did.

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Report this Post03-04-2010 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DefEddie:

*Oh yeah,who am I? The pirate or the ninja.
Pirate's are freaking awesome,but ninja's are like...well they're freakin ninja's man!
Can I be the Pirate?



I found one that fit the nut-hanging part better, but family forum at all...
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Report this Post03-04-2010 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DefEddie:

Why couldn't you simply use a 3400 topend setup?


3400's use aluminum heads. You cannot use an intake from an iron headed engine on an aluminum headed engine and visa-versa.
Swapping in a 3400, 3500, 3600, 3900 would be the way to go, But now you are talking about a much more complicated swap compared to the very easy 3.4L swap.
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Report this Post03-04-2010 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DefEddieSend a Private Message to DefEddieDirect Link to This Post
I was referring to a topend swap,the whole thing-heads and all.
An intake swap would be...well an intake swap


I'd love for you guy's to go into the 3.4 carb swap also to see what is out there/being done.
That 3.4 doesn't have a future yet,but among the three possibilities is carbing it (have a friend i'm doing a swap for and he wants carb for simplicity..)
I've yet to look into intake options,figured they were out there as the 3.4ht is sold as an upgrade for carb 2.8's and not fuel injected.
So GM performance likely has something out?
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Report this Post03-04-2010 08:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageSend a Private Message to Francis TDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DefEddie:
The stock intakes are 10 times better looking than the bundle of snakes and welds of the truelo.
(Francis,not trying to bag on your intake-I just think it looks ugly and cobbled personally.)


To each his own. Lol, no problem, some people think they look like ants or cottie bugs.
To me the stock intake is hard to look at, whereas I see; insanely sharp runner bends, a TB neck that's way too small, runner inlets without velocity stacks, limited plenium area, and the stock intakes are even a few pounds heavier than our steel ones! BTW: the flow bench and dyno agree with me on the above.
I will admit, that I also like the total function look of race-type tube intakes, especailly on V10s & V12s. After building my first 2.8 with lots of goodies, cam, higher comp pistons, head work, etc, etc and then having it almost drop dead on the dyno above 4.5 RPM for lack of CFM, I just had to build a tube intake. I considered carbs but did not want to lose the fuel injection. And yes todays carbs are better than 1970s ones, in my opion, they are still not as good fuel injection. If they were, the OEMs would still be using them.
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Report this Post03-04-2010 08:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DefEddie:


I'd love for you guy's to go into the 3.4 carb swap also to see what is out there/being done.


Do a search in the Archives for "Oreif" and "3.4L carb" and you will see many threads with many pics.



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Report this Post03-04-2010 08:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayDirect Link to This Post
carbs generally are better then efi unless you're looking for mpg. only thing efi is good for is if you want to tune digitally
but with efi you have to have a in the car....that is bad mojo...hence new cars = gay

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Report this Post03-04-2010 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ozzy83Send a Private Message to ozzy83Direct Link to This Post
Hmm so on a carbed 3.4 pr engine. Wouldnt you have to trick a few ecu sensors not to throw codes? Like mass air or map or whatever it is. And what about idle air control? You won't bze uzseing that stuff but how do you keep you dash from going nuts lol Amature here when it comes to fieros even though I have 2 haha.

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Report this Post03-04-2010 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ozzy83Send a Private Message to ozzy83Direct Link to This Post

ozzy83

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Well just saw the above post to search for 3.4 carb info. Better try that haha.
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Report this Post03-04-2010 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayDirect Link to This Post
oreif do you have any videos of your car? like driving it etc? thanks..and about to search now.

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Report this Post03-04-2010 09:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DefEddieSend a Private Message to DefEddieDirect Link to This Post
No sensor's on a carb engine other than oil pressure and temp sensor (if you like guages).
Offhand not sure if the VSS is an input to the ECM/output to the speedo or what so not sure about that.
Fan control will cost you 15$ at autozone.
ECU should be completely disgarded pretty much.

Back in the day a guy I know did use an 89 truck pcm,replaced the TBI with a carb/TPS switch and still ran the ECM for spark control.
Said the jump in power was crazy.

I know there are alot of 3.4 carbs,but the better place to do a search for those really interested would be thirdgen.org or s10forums.com i'm betting.

Oreif,i've read several of your other threads and I will definately check that thread out when it's time to make a decision.

[This message has been edited by DefEddie (edited 03-04-2010).]

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mattwa
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Report this Post03-05-2010 12:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaDirect Link to This Post
My idea is to build a "box" out of plate steel (borderline sheet-metal/plate steel), put it on the middle intake, and then bolt a M90 onto the top of that.
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Hockaday
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Report this Post03-05-2010 12:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HockadaySend a Private Message to HockadayDirect Link to This Post
3.4L out of a newer Grand Am


I saw that in the archive...is this grandam engine a direct swap ( aka like the firebird 3.4) or is it massivly ifferent like the dohc 3.4?

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Oreif
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Report this Post03-05-2010 06:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DefEddie:

No sensor's on a carb engine other than oil pressure and temp sensor (if you like guages).
Offhand not sure if the VSS is an input to the ECM/output to the speedo or what so not sure about that.
Fan control will cost you 15$ at autozone.
ECU should be completely disgarded pretty much.

Back in the day a guy I know did use an 89 truck pcm,replaced the TBI with a carb/TPS switch and still ran the ECM for spark control.
Said the jump in power was crazy.

I know there are alot of 3.4 carbs,but the better place to do a search for those really interested would be thirdgen.org or s10forums.com i'm betting.

Oreif,i've read several of your other threads and I will definately check that thread out when it's time to make a decision.



The ECM can be removed. All the gauges in the dash go thru the connector on by the battery. While some of the sensors like the VSS and Tach pulses do go to the computer, the gauges are wired as well. The fan switch sensor still works like stock. The computer has it's own temp sensor and that gets discarded. Actually my car still has the ECM in it. The only reason is because of the fuel pump safety feature and fuel pump prime. In an accident the fuel pump relay is turned off so if there is a leak it won't pump fuel out. Also when I trun the key on there is the typical 3-second prime to pressurize the fuel lines. If I recall this is teh only line you need to jumper out if you are removing the ECM.
As for the CES light, I just removed the bulb from the dashboard.

For wiring you just need the hot wires for the ignition and coil, The tach wire, the gauges (oil, temp, battery), the fan switch, and add a wire with switched power to the electronic choke. I hooked the choke up to the TB1 power that went to the injectors. This line is fused under the dash so it worked out well.
The auto trans wires, A/C wires, Alternator wires, starter wires, etc. all stay stock.

For fuel supply you just install a 4-cyl Fiero fuel pump and a Holly 12-803 fuel pressure regulator. The carbs use 4-8 psi of pressure. Setting the pressure to 6psi seems to work very well.

You will need a distribiutor from a 1985 or older S-10 pick-up truck with the 2.8L V-6. Remans can be bought for around $90.


 
quote
Originally posted by Hockaday:

3.4L out of a newer Grand Am


I saw that in the archive...is this grandam engine a direct swap ( aka like the firebird 3.4) or is it massivly ifferent like the dohc 3.4?

oreif do you have any videos of your car? like driving it etc? thanks..and about to search now.



It uses DIS ignition so while the engine will bolt up, there is a lot more electrical/wiring that needs to be done similar to the DOHC engine.
Sorry I don't have any video's with the 3.4L V-6 in it.
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carbon
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Report this Post03-05-2010 07:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hockaday:

carbs generally are better then efi unless you're looking for mpg. only thing efi is good for is if you want to tune digitally




LOL

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 03-05-2010).]

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