My Fiero is an 88gt with a freshly rebuilt 3.1L... So fresh, this is my initial startup...

I originally noticed some noise coming from my roller-rockers and posted a question regarding this... So I removed the rear valve cover to see if they needed to be adjusted. I also wanted to see if any oil was making it up to the heads...

So I started the motor w/ the valve cover removed, I did not see any oil dripping or squirting from the end of the pushrods. No pushrods had oil coming out!

What would cause this???

I have over 60 psi of oil pressure showing on my gauge! What did I do wrong when I rebuilt this motor? What should I do to figure this one out??

Serious help needed,
AL

Here's a description of the oil routing from the 88 service manual:

"Oil is routed from the filter to the main oil gallery which is rifle drilled above the camshaft, to the left of the camshaft centerline. This gallery supplies the left (forward)bank hydraulic lifters with oil. Oil is directed from the left (forward) gallery, by means of intersecting passages, to the camshaft bearings and the right (aft) oil gallery. The hydraulic lifters pump oil up through the pushrods to the rocker arms."

Have you checked if oil is not making it to both heads? If it's only one side, then it may be that an oil plug was improperly inserted or inserted in the wrong hole. There are a few little oil plugs (that look like little freeze plugs) here and there in the lifter valley that may have been improperly installed. Normally if they weren't there, you'd get very low oil pressure, so I'd check for oil flow on both heads before making that call.

If the lifters aren't rattling I would assume they are pumped up and oil should be getting up through the push-rods. Did you over-do it with the assembly lube and plug some up? I would still think oil would flow after a couple of minutes of running.

Does the 2.8 have a large 'O' ring on the distributor that keeps the oil in a channel ? Some engine I built once was that way. I just don't remember which one it was now.

quote Originally posted by josef644: Does the 2.8 have a large 'O' ring on the distributor that keeps the oil in a channel ? Some engine I built once was that way. I just don't remember which one it was now.

If you leave the o-ring off the dist you know in about 30 seconds as the oil covers your trans. I think it sits above the gallery.

So this is what I tried so far...

I removed the dist. and primed the pump with a drill. I used the Dist. housing and put a long extension through it to the pump and spun it. Oil pressure showed on the gauge and the drill slowed a bit. No oil came out from the pushrods (rear head). I know oil pours out the dist. passage as I have seen it gushing while priming (w/o dist. body installed)... I then tried blowing some compressed air down the rods to see if they were cloged and tried priming again, no luck...

I will remove the front valve cover today and see what results I get there..

Question:

If I have oil at the dist., does that mean the cam is also getting oil? I would hate to think I started this motor (and let it run for quite a while, 2krpm's) and never had oil at the cam

Will post back my results of the front bank after lunch...

Thanks for all the sugestions and help,
AL

[This message has been edited by ALJR (edited 10-08-2009).]

The oil won't visibly squirt out from the pushrods. It will pool in the rocker arms, then dribble off the ends and down onto the valve springs. If the rocker arms and valve springs are wet with oil, then you're good to go.

And BTW, if your camshaft was running dry the whole time, you'd know it by now (the cam would be toast).

my only thought is perhaps being the lifters & the push rods have not "broken in"/mated yet and that the oil is just squeezing out at the lifter/push rod joint.
but, at this point, I am at a loss to explain. almost thinking maybe draining the block of oil, and just filling with kerosense to disolve any clumps. but that would also wash out any assembly lube, and would probably just make matters worse.....
maybe removing the intake manifold, and seeing if oil is making it to the cam & lifters? it obviously is making it to the dist hole.

Ok, so I understand the oil will not be squirting out. But shouldn't it at least be trickling out? I see nothing at 60psi...

For the lifters/pushrods not seating yes, that makes sense. But again, shouldn't I see a trickle or some sort of oil flow?

I really do not want to run anything other then oil through the motor, as it isn't even broken in yet. Seems kinda dicy to do so, or???

I am at a loss... I do not want to take any chances with the motor. It has taken me more then 10 years to get to this point and would hate to have to start over...

Thanks for the sugestions guys! Any other ideas or tests to perform?

AL

hmmm, are you sure there is no oil coming out? take a clean white rag and wipe down the rockers - does the rag show signs of oil? I think there is something wrong, as you should have a puddle of oil in there after a while.

Hmmm

[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 10-08-2009).]

If the block was tanked during the rebuild -should have been- they may forgot to put the oil gally plugs -small allens- back in which will leave the top end hurtin for oil. Yeah, been there done that myself. Sadlly only wayI know ofto chek i pull the intake, all 3 of em.

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quote Originally posted by Francis T: If the block was tanked during the rebuild -should have been- they may forgot to put the oil gally plugs -small allens- back in which will leave the top end hurtin for oil. Yeah, been there done that myself. Sadlly only wayI know ofto chek i pull the intake, all 3 of em.

Ya, I was afraid of that (removing intake)... This is going to be a last resort! I would like to exhaust all my other options first...

You would get about 5 psi oil pressure if the the oil galley plugs in the lifter valley weren't installed, not 60. I know this first hand.

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: You would get about 5 psi oil pressure if the the oil galley plugs in the lifter valley weren't installed, not 60. I know this first hand.

Wow, that low? What if one one or two was missing? Are there plugs anywhere else that may cause my problem? Maybe under the timing chain cover?

Any sugestions on what to diagnose next?

Thanks,
AL

Yeah... that low. When I got my block hot tanked, the machine shop removed the little lifter valley plugs and I never noticed until I started the car later on. The oil takes the path of least resistance and squirts up out of the holes in the lifter valley rather than squeezing through the very small bearing clearances. The pressure takes a nose dive so I don't think that's your problem. Here's a couple pictures of where the oil plugs are located just in case you decide to go looking for them:

In this photo, the two outer holes are the rifle bores that lead from the forward (left) oil gallery to the #2 and #3 camshaft bearings. The middle hole is the main oil passage from the oil filter that feeds the forward (left) oil gallery. All three need plugs to prevent the oil pressure from escaping out these holes.


In this photo, the arrows point out the two holes that are the rifle bores which make up the aft and forward oil galleries. They too need plugs in them.


And here's an image from the service manual which should give you a better understanding of the oil flow. There are several other images as well but this is the most pertinent one for top end oiling:


As for what you problem MIGHT be, that's a toughie. Some people seem to suggest you shouldn't see alot of oil flow on the top end, but I vividly remember what the underside of a customer's hood looked like after he forgot to replace the oil filler cap and went for a drive on the highway... it was soaked! I'm guessing you should see more flow than you're seeing. Afterall, the cam lobes are lubricated by oil dripping down from the rockers and through the "windows" in the lifter valley. There has to be alot of oil flow for this to work properly. Perhaps you have the wrong lifters. Since the oil is pumped through the galleries to the lifter bodies, then through the lifters to the pushrods, if you have the wrong lifters the oil feed holes in lifters may not line up with the galleries properly. If that were the case, they may not be getting enough oil to keep them pumped up and feed the pushrods. Also, it is possible to have adjusted the rocker lash incorrectly so that you've taken up much of the lifter's hydraulic action. When you adjusted the lash on each pushrod, are you sure you had the engine turned to the correct cylinder?

At high RPMs you do get a pretty good flow. At idle, it's a trickle. I rev'd one engine with the covers off and learned my lesson. I would think at 60 PSI he would see oil at the top of the rocker regardless of the break-in state. When I pre-oiled my 3.1 on the stand I got visible oil at the rockers via the pushrods.

At the same time, you don't want to over pre-oil and wash the assembly lube off before you start it.

Something seems amiss here. The lash being wrong comment is a good call.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 10-08-2009).]

Bloozberry, it’s been around 10 years since I did that point in my build. So I can not guarantee with 100% certainty anything I did I remember I was building the block just as outlined in the FOCOA magazine at the time...

I have to imagine my plugs are in. The motor builds pressure very quick w/ the drill and while it was running. Shot right up to 60+psi...
I will check my box of receipts tomorrow and make sure I purchased the proper lifters. Although it is unlikely, as I purchased what FOCOA recommended in the article (if I remember correctly)...

Also, I was thinking a bit more about what Pyrthian said. He said to maybe run some kerosene through the motor to help dissolve some of the assembly lube that may be clogging some parts. I originally thought this would be a bad idea. But, if I only run it through the motor via the dist. priming and a drill. Then flush it out with some motor oil, then change the motor oil to fresh motor oil. Would it REALLY harm anything??? Especially since I already ran the motor for 15 minutes...

This may be a long shot, but would running 10/30 motor oil cause this?

I ran the motor for 15 minutes or so with 5/30 (or was it 5/40; what ever the oil cap says) for the initial startup. When I purchased the oil for my first oil change, I noticed it was 10/30 rather then the original 5/30. But used it any way, figuring it was basically only going to be in there till I further tuned the motor...

Thanks for the help and suggestions
AL

I think (correct me if I am wrong) that you can NOT lube more than maybe 2 rockers thru the pushrods with the engine AT REST because the lifters are not aligned with there respective gallery hole. Pushrod and rocker oiling is accomplished by oil pump pressure forcing oil thru this window and only works when they
(lifters) are moving. You only get a small amount out per stroke anyways because valve trains do not need much. Alot of racing engines, esp. with roller rockers only use a MISTING tube in the rocker cover.

Try the suggestion of the clean white (non linting) cloth. New engine, new oil , maybe its just not noticeable.

One other thought, pull all the spark plugs and the coil wire and crank the engine WHILE you spin the drill and see if the rockers start getting a little oil.......of course you will have to go thru the trouble of resetting the dist. to it's proper place.

Not knowing the innards of the block I have to agree with the others about the gallery plugs being installed if you are getting 60 psi.

The only other thing I can think of is that it 'looks' like in the oiling diagram that the oil for the lifters comes from the filter directly to the galleries to the front and rear cam
bearings. If one of those is not installed correctly it will stop the flow maybe enough to lower the pressure in the gallery.

Good luck.

"

Are you certain the valve lash is correct?
Too tight and you won't get any or very little oiling. Same thing if too loose.

quote Originally posted by Indiana_resto_guy: Are you certain the valve lash is correct? Too tight and you won't get any or very little oiling. Same thing if too loose.

BINGO! We have a winner...

I am in the process of setting my rockers as we speak. It apears as though they were set incorectly. I have been priming the motor between rocker adjustments (to make sure the lifters are full) and noticed some of the other pushrods that have already been adjusted, squirting oil

Will post back once they are all adjusted with the final results...

Thanks to ALL who have helped!
AL

[This message has been edited by ALJR (edited 10-09-2009).]

not to highjack ur thread but iave also a oil pressure issue.

engine is a fresh rebuil 3.2 and gauge is showing after 1 min 0 pressure ..... ( aftermarket )

switchproblem ?

oilpump has been overhauled.
switch is an old one .

quote Originally posted by Fieromaniac: not to highjack ur thread but iave also a oil pressure issue. engine is a fresh rebuil 3.2 and gauge is showing after 1 min 0 pressure ..... ( aftermarket ) switchproblem ? oilpump has been overhauled. switch is an old one .

Have you read through this thread yet? Did you remomber to install the oil gally plugs?

I am also running an aftermarket gauge (VDO) and was reading 60+psi while priming and running. Are you sure the gauge is wired properlly?
You definatly do not want to start the motor untill you know you have oil pressure!
Does the gauge read any pressure? You said after 1 minute it is 0, but does it have PSI before 1 minute?
Have you tried priming the oil pump through the dist.? If so, you should notice the drill will slow down a bit after a couple of seconds do to the resistance of oil flowing through the pump/motor...
Did you put oil in the motor after your build?
Is the oil pump shaft installed and inserting into the bottom of the dist.?
Do any of your gauges work? Do you have the stock oil psi gauge to reinstall?
Can/did you test the oil psi sending unit?

[This message has been edited by ALJR (edited 10-12-2009).]

i prelubed the engine when it was on the enginestand and i had problems to keep the oil from squirting out of the distributor hole so i think pump is working.

Gauge worked fine with the L4 .

after 1 min running engine with 8-11 psi on the gauge it went down to 0 .
( maybe the sendertube is plugged or the sender itself is gone )
all galleyyplugs are set


but i noticed that i kept 3 small freeze plugs of the set i bought

didnt found a place where to put them


buildthread of the engine is here maybe you see anything what i dont see:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000021.html

quote Originally posted by ALJR: Tighten rocker nut while spinning rod between fingers. Once rod stops freely spinning between your fingers, turn rocker nut 1.5 more turns.

I wished that I would have seen this yesterday for you, spinning the pushrod will not give you an accurate idea of zero lash. Don't feel bad, I did the same too once before and had to re-set my lash.

As it was explained to me, instead of spinning the pushrod you should be gently rocking the pushrod up & down between the lifter and the rocker arm. That way you can feel the play diminish down to zero.

Wiggle the pushrod back and forth as you tighten the rocker nut, you will feel the pushrod end "clicking" as it moves around. The amount of movement will decrease as the nut is tightened until suddenly it stops. This is the point where the lash is out with the poppet at the top of it's bore. That's zero lash. Not in time to help you but may help out the next forum member.

How's the oiling situation now?

quote Originally posted by jetman: I wished that I would have seen this yesterday for you, spinning the pushrod will not give you an accurate idea of zero lash. Don't feel bad, I did the same too once before and had to re-set my lash. As it was explained to me, instead of spinning the pushrod you should be gently rocking the pushrod up & down between the lifter and the rocker arm. That way you can feel the play diminish down to zero. Wiggle the pushrod back and forth as you tighten the rocker nut, you will feel the pushrod end "clicking" as it moves around. The amount of movement will decrease as the nut is tightened until suddenly it stops. This is the point where the lash is out with the poppet at the top of it's bore. That's zero lash. Not in time to help you but may help out the next forum member. How's the oiling situation now?

More then half the rockers I adjusted as you stated; most I could not get my fingers around the rod to spin. So I rocked the rocker till no movement was felt. I would say, all my rockers are adjusted within +/- 1/12th a turn...

I am going to change out the 10/30 motor oil and put back in the factory recomended 5/30. Oil was squirting out several of the pushrods. Which was NOT happening before. So I buttoned her back up yesterday and working on my brakes today... This weekend, I should be able to take her out for a quick spin / shake-down run...

ok same game with 2nd sensor .

then i took my akkudrill and i found out that my gauge works inverted now ( however that can be )
( Oil comes out of the distributor hole on middle rpms with my akkudrill so pumps is ok )

meeans ignition on gauge shows 45 psi when i start the akkudrill on low rpm , the number drops .
The more the less the psi number .... thats strange .

btw its a 86 wiring harness and my gauge is connected on pin 17 of the gauge cluster .
And this setup worked fine with te 87 duke before the swap.

There are three wires that lead to the oil pressure gauge: a power wire, and two grounds (one of them a fixed ground and the other a variable resistance). If your gauge is reading anything at all, then you know the power wire is fine. That leaves the two grounds: pins 17 (to variable resistance sender) and 11 (to a fixed ground) on the 18 pin instrument panel connector in your case. Because of the way the meter is behaving, I'd say the oil pressure gauge terminal that is connected to pin 11 via the flexible mylar printed circuit on the back of the instrument panel is not getting a solid connection through the spring clip that holds it there. You can test it with an ohmmeter set to ohms by placing one meter lead on gauge post (not the clip) and the other on a known good ground while the 18 pin connector is still connected. The meter should read zero ohms. If it doesn't, then you should pop the spring clip off from the back of the instrument panel, clean the copper contact on the printed circuit with some emory cloth, and then re-insert the spring clip and try it again. If it still doesn't give you zero ohms, then run a test wire from the terminal on the back of the gauge while it's installed and ground the other end of the wire to see if your gauge will work properly while cranking the drill.