so, tell us how a Fiero, with no rear bar is going to benifit from this?
All I know is that they made my car handle better. A second user of this product backed that up. I Know that just like adding power handling is a "package" concept. You made a blanket statement saying that these would harm the handling of a car without a rear sway bar. You made that statement as an educated guess. It is being taken as a fact. You can't make statements of fact unless you run the product.
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11:43 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by KN16: All I know is that they made my car handle better. A second user of this product backed that up. I Know that just like adding power handling is a "package" concept. You made a blanket statement saying that these would harm the handling of a car without a rear sway bar. You made that statement as an educated guess. It is being taken as a fact. You can't make statements of fact unless you run the product.
I dont need to run the product to know that if you tighten the front with no other changes, you just increase the factory push of the car I have no doubts whatsoever that the car "feels flatter". because that is what the zero lash endlinks do - makes the bar which it is attached to work harder/better/faster.
what tests have you done to make you think your car handles better? again - I have no doubts the cars feel flatter. that does not mean it is handling better.
what tests have you done to make you think your car handles better? again - I have no doubts the cars feel flatter. that does not mean it is handling better.
As I said two months ago the only way to definitively come up with an answer would be to test them on a track, and as I said I have not done that. I can only go with before and after there is a marked improvement. This was pretty much seconded by the other guy on this thread. I have several points in my commute that I can really lay into a turn. I can do so with no tire squeal, no tendency for the rear to break loose and long term no abnormal tire wear.
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12:15 PM
Lambo nut Member
Posts: 4442 From: Centralia,Missouri. USA Registered: Sep 2003
Let me get this straight. You have nothing to ad to the original topic, you've never used the product in question. You are just here to pick on a two month old scab and see what you can stir up?
Actually, someone else picked it, You just started bleeding. A few others I'm guessing would like to just put a band aid over it. I'm just reading both sides of the story, and you are the only one looking like a jackass in this whole thread.
...and you are the only one looking like a &^$&^Y%^ in this whole thread.
Kevin
Thanks for using the obscene language. Thanks for letting us know you know how to use a tampon. Do you have anything to add to this thread besides hate and discontent?
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02:14 PM
Lambo nut Member
Posts: 4442 From: Centralia,Missouri. USA Registered: Sep 2003
Thanks for using the obscene language. Thanks for letting us know you know how to use a tampon. Do you have anything to add to this thread besides hate and discontent?
Looks like you are seeing things that just are not there. I never used obscene language, nor did I ever tell you or anyone how to use a tampon. At least you are saying something different then you were before, over and over and over and over......
Kevin
Edit to add. Thought I would help you out a little....
Jackass:A male donkey; A foolish or stupid person; An inappropriately rude or obnoxious person; To behave very obnoxiously; A jack and an ace as a starting hand in Texas hold 'em due to phonetic similarity
Pick the one you think I was using.
Kevin
[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 11-23-2009).]
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03:06 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
c'mon - just trying to get good info out there - pissing all over each other wont help
KN16 has a valid point with me saying his Fiero doesnt handle as well now that he has the Zero lash links up front, with no rear sway bar, or any other suspension mods. after all, I'm not driving his car, nor have I specificly used the Zero lash links. I am just trying to explain the dynamics of sway bars, and the effects they have. my posts are more overall & generic - and his posts are specific to a single setup. I will stick with my belief that his car pushes into turns more now - but never having driven it - I will never know. Maybe if we have a track day for the 30th anniv, we can trade cars for a few laps, and we can see what each other are talking about.
Lambo most adults consider that word obscene when used with your tone. And I didn't say you told me to use a tampon it's just you announced to the world that you know how to use one and you've still added nothing to the thread.
Pyrithian I assume you meant I said it DOES handle better. I makes the sway bar react quicker and while it no doubt adds stiffness I think your overestimating the amount of stiffness.
Carbon I don't have an understeer issue either it goes exactly where I want it.
Track day would be cool. I don't know where it will be though cause I've heard the folks at Indy won't even let you get to parade lap speeds any more.
I agree the car goes where you want it, it's point and shoot really. The car stays flat, with less body roll, better turn-in.
Fact is though, you're not understeering because you're not driving the car hard enough. And all cars have a traction limit. Don't claim that it will go into a 4-wheel drift at its handling limit.
The 4-wheel drift is where the maximum skidpad numbers will be attained.
You traded body roll for more understeer. It's a compromise. The understeer is a fact though.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 11-23-2009).]
I agree the car goes where you want it, it's point and shoot really. The car stays flat, with less body roll, better turn-in.
Fact is though, you're not understeering because you're not driving the car hard enough. And all cars have a traction limit. Don't claim that it will go into a 4-wheel drift at its handling limit.
The 4-wheel drift is where the maximum skidpad numbers will be attained.
You traded body roll for more understeer. It's a compromise. The understeer is a fact though.
Exactly, thank you. I deleted my previous post due to a bad mood and coming off more derogatory than I wanted to.
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05:24 PM
PFF
System Bot
Lambo nut Member
Posts: 4442 From: Centralia,Missouri. USA Registered: Sep 2003
So what does YOUR car do at the limit of traction?
Right now I get a steady drift. It scares me as I want to lower it and I'm afraid if I touch any thing I'll screw it up and not be able to get it back to where it is!
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08:58 PM
Formula Owner Member
Posts: 1053 From: Madison, AL Registered: May 2001
Right now I get a steady drift. It scares me as I want to lower it and I'm afraid if I touch any thing I'll screw it up and not be able to get it back to where it is!
Does it have any mods now? Is it completely stock, except for the end links?
Polly swaybar center bushings, 225/45-17 front 245/40-17 rear
I think that the original assumption was that your car was stock, and therefore would have the original (severe) understeer. Given that your car is not stock, this MAY not apply. What swaybar bushings did your come with? If you replaced rubber with poly on both ends, the end result should be no change to understeer, but an increase in roll stiffness (i.e. flatter cornering).
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08:51 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
I know that my stock 1988 GT pushes like a mofo... all most killed MinnGreenGT's car at a Mall of America meet once... scary... I would rather have some oversteer personally.
....end result should be no change to understeer, but an increase in roll stiffness (i.e. flatter cornering).
Most people would call that better handling. I think we're into semantics at this point. I stick with the original contention that the zero lash end links did not harm the handling and, yes improved it.
Most people would call that better handling. I think we're into semantics at this point. I stick with the original contention that the zero lash end links did not harm the handling and, yes improved it.
Some people would, but they would be wrong... a setup that gives a false sense of better grip is worse than one that feels loose.
I know that my stock 1988 GT pushes like a mofo... all most killed MinnGreenGT's car at a Mall of America meet once... scary... I would rather have some oversteer personally.
Oversteer is a lot of fun... IF you know the course or road. But if you're on an unfamiliar road, and come up on a turn that's tighter than expected, it's nice to be able to lift and/or tap the brakes, and have the car bite and hold the curve. With inherent oversteer, that's a spinout. If that happens on some of the roads in the N GA mtns, it becomes FAR more serious than just a spinout. On my last run through the N GA mts with the GA Fiero club, there were a couple of curves that I was glad to have understeer.
usually works 
