Recently I installed the Fierostore rear swaybar for my 85 Fiero and wow what a difference. I can't believe what a difference the addition of the rear swaybar made to the car. So since I have a new sway bar on the rear with poly end links and mounts, it got me thinking about the front swaybar. My front swaybar setup is completely original with 25 year old end links and mounts, so it might be time to update the front end as well. I do not autocross my car or race it at all, it is just a daily driver that likes to carve corners from time to time. Do you think poly end links or Rodney's zero lash end links would be more appropriate? Also, should I install new mounts for the front swaybar while I am at it, if so rubber or poly?

much depends on how you like the car
I would assume your rear is overly stiff, compared to the front, with the new bar, all poly mounted in the rear, with the front still on the old rubber.

but, this is fully subjective. everyone has different preferance. testing how it reacts is the right answer. find a parking lot, which you can do "skidpad" tests. go in a fixed circle, and keep increasing speed until the front slides, or the rear lets out. note how it happens. another key thing is: when you feel it getting close to coming undone - let off the gas, and see if the rear comes out from under you. this is actually one of the trickiest things, and one you DONT want to happen on a street car. this is from to much rear bar vs front bar.

myself - I would guess getting new rubber pillows, putting them on the rear bar, and moving the poly pillows up to the front bar would be the thing to do. or, go straight to the zero lash on the front.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 09-15-2009).]

I'd scrap the poly end links (new or not) and install Rodne'ys. I have them on my car. I reallly wasn't expecting a big diffrence but it is amazing. There's nothing negative I could say about these. They have no unwanted side effects (squeeks, harsh ride etc.) and you won't know there there utill you need em' Everyone not worried about keeping their car stock should be running these. This is such a well engineered product. We're lucky to have Rodney developing products for us.

quote Originally posted by KN16: I'd scrap the poly end links (new or not) and install Rodne'ys. I have them on my car. I reallly wasn't expecting a big diffrence but it is amazing. There's nothing negative I could say about these. They have no unwanted side effects (squeeks, harsh ride etc.) and you won't know there there utill you need em' Everyone not worried about keeping their car stock should be running these. This is such a well engineered product. We're lucky to have Rodney developing products for us.

by itself - this really doesnt help much. If you have a 84-87 Fiero, and only have a front bar, and you go and install these things, you will even more increase the front end push of the car. Most people are trying to rid themselves of this push. you do this by adding a rear bar, or softening the front bar, or stiffer rear springs. I dont doubt one bit that just adding these on the front of 84-87 will make the car feel flatter. but, it wont actually handle better.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: by itself - this really doesnt help much.

Do you have these on your car? I replaced my good rubber bushed end links and noticed the difference on the first quick turn. Granted the only way to definitively prove this would be on the track changing parts and running each under identical conditions. This I have not done. However I did notice decreased body roll on the first aggressive turn I made. Given that there is no slop unlike even poly bushed end links it would have the same effect as switching to a stiffer bar. How much exactly stiffer would again require testing.

quote Originally posted by KN16: Do you have these on your car? I replaced my good rubber bushed end links and noticed the difference on the first quick turn. Granted the only way to definitively prove this would be on the track changing parts and running each under identical conditions. This I have not done. However I did notice decreased body roll on the first aggressive turn I made. Given that there is no slop unlike even poly bushed end links it would have the same effect as switching to a stiffer bar. How much exactly stiffer would again require testing.

I have no doubt they make the car feel flatter. none at all.
but, if you only have a front bar, and you go and stiffen it - you will increase the front end "push" in corners.
and, technicly, it doesnt make the bar stiffer - it makes the bar become "active" quicker. but - end result is the same

Well the bottom line then is they are superior to rubber or polly. He should have all 4 corners the same. Given money spent vs. improvement I stand by what I said. Dump the rubber and the polly and go with the "Zero Lash" links.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I have no doubt they make the car feel flatter. none at all. but, if you only have a front bar, and you go and stiffen it - you will increase the front end "push" in corners. and, technicly, it doesnt make the bar stiffer - it makes the bar become "active" quicker. but - end result is the same

Pyrthian is right on this, it simply reduces the take up slack. All body roll isn't a bad thing, you want the outside wheel to have some spring to account for imperfections in the road at full cornering power. Maybe on a glass smooth track it's ok to have almost zero body roll, but in the real world, you're just reducing total available grip by almost completely eliminating body roll.

quote Originally posted by aaronkoch: you're just reducing total available grip by almost completely eliminating body roll.

Do you have these on your car? The original question was not about body roll it was quality of poly vs zero lash links. The Fiero isn't so stiff. No practical sway bar/link combo is going to make it so stiff as to be unstreetable.

I have RD's zero lash links on both my 88's. I like them better than stock rubber and poly. I had stock rubber in my 88 Formula and the rubber was bad - creating a clunk and a noticeable thump front and rear when weight was transfered from side to side in hard corners. I replaced them with poly and it was way better but the squeaking was unbearable - no matter how much lube I put on them, it would just atract dirt and debris. I put RD's links in and now it is smooth and quiet. Do they change the handling of the car? I have no idea as I am not a professional driver but they do improve the "ride" quality by leaps and bounds. When I rebuilt the suspension in my 88 XTC, I did not give the polly links one thought - went right to RD for the zero lash units. I am currently rebuilding the front suspension on my 70 Monte Carlo. I am looking into "adapting" a set of RD's links to the sway bar on it too. They are a great product and I will not have to worry about sway bar links again. Of course this is just my opinion and you know what they say about opinion's!

Pat

First off, you can't go wrong buying a Rodney Dickman product always world class. Installed on your pride and joy, those zero backlash units will look sweet. Having said that, I can't believe that anyone could notice the difference on the street between Rodney's product and poly. Some comments about poly squeak have to be talking about the swaybar mounts not the end links, right? I wouldn't think that there's enough relative motion between the poly and the swaybar or suspension to produce squeak.

------------------
RickN
White 88GT 5spd
White 85GT Auto
White 99 F250SD 7.3PSD 6spd
1956 Ford 860 Tractor w/ Freeman Loader
20Ft Tilt Bed Trailer

quote Originally posted by katatak: I am currently rebuilding the front suspension on my 70 Monte Carlo. I am looking into "adapting" a set of RD's links to the sway bar on it too.

This is key because even though we're luckey enough to have had this product developed for our cars the rest of the world is going to want them too. I'm sure that fact is not lost on Rodney and this will all look pretty silly when the world is rushing to buy what Fiero owners want to pick a part when they havn't even tried them.

quote Originally posted by KN16: Do you have these on your car? The original question was not about body roll it was quality of poly vs zero lash links. The Fiero isn't so stiff. No practical sway bar/link combo is going to make it so stiff as to be unstreetable.

actually - it is about how to properly setup your suspension
from the factory, the Fiero come with a front bar, which is there to make the car "push" into corners. this is a safety thing.
the opening post - someone installed a rear bar. installing a rear bar changes the handling. if made to stiff, it will make the rear "loose" instead of the having the front "push". you are trying to balance the push & loose to your driving preferances.
just making the car feel "flat", like a go-kart is cute - but it actually doesnt improve handling. and often actually removes handling. as mentioned above - if you take a 84-87, with no rear bar, and then go and add the zero-lash endlinks - you are removing handling. you are making your Fiero push into corners even more. I have no doubts the car feels flatter & more go-kart like, but it is NOT handling better.
and - tire size has alot to do with the setup as well.

anyways - if the thread starter goes to stiff with the rear bar vs the front bar, his rear end may end up to "loose".

I have all poly all around with new shocks and struts, and the car is pretty stiff, but I can take a hard turn without slowing down. Which is really fun. Especially when some jerk is tailgating and tries to be all hard ass about following on the turn. It's fun watching them brake loose a little. What does this have to do with Rodney's product? Nothing. Sorry.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: actually - it is about how to properly setup your suspension

You must have miss read the original post. The question was not how to set anything up it was specifically poly VS "zero lash" links. By the way to didn't answer the question are you running "zero lash" links on your car?

I'm part way through installing my RD links - I can't get grip on the joint to tighten the bottom nut though! I'm thinking about either using a dremel to square off the end of the shaft to get a grip on it - any thoughts/better suggestions?

Problem is that I can't get the little spnner provided onto the flats - the spring and/or the lip of the arm is in the way!

quote Originally posted by KN16: You must have miss read the original post. The question was not how to set anything up it was specifically poly VS "zero lash" links. By the way to didn't answer the question are you running "zero lash" links on your car?

well, I would expect the topic starter would want his car to handle nicely. and, no, I dont use the zero lash links. I lowered my car, and have fairly stiff springs already, I dont need to stiffen the ride anymore. and, in fact, I am thinking of removing the poly from my front bar, and going back to rubber, to soften the front up a little.

I have no doubts whatsoever that Rodney's zero lash link are great parts. But, I know that a 84-87 Fiero, with no rear bar will only lose handling by installing them. yes, it will feel "flatter". it sure will. but, it will also "push" thru turns more. If you add a rear bar, yes - there is a good chance Rodneys zero lash links would be a good addition - but - the key is to find the balance. slight push on throttle, slight loose off throttle is what I try for.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: slight push on throttle, slight loose off throttle is what I try for.

when you say push and loose, are you talking about understeer and oversteer respectively? 'push and loose' aren't terms we're familiar with on my side of the pond

quote Originally posted by Gandalf: when you say push and loose, are you talking about understeer and oversteer respectively? 'push and loose' aren't terms we're familiar with on my side of the pond

We'll have to export a NASCAR race to the Manchester area and get you up on the terminology.

[This message has been edited by RickN (edited 09-16-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Gandalf: when you say push and loose, are you talking about understeer and oversteer respectively? 'push and loose' aren't terms we're familiar with on my side of the pond

yes.
I get understeer & oversteer mixed up
push being when you turn the wheel, and the car keeps "pushing" forward - guessing this is understeer
loose being when you turn the wheel, and the rear end comes out from under you. coming "loose" - oversteer?

Fiero's come stock, as most cars do, with "push"
it is a safety issue, because the natural instinct when the car slides, is to let off the throttle. this shifts weight forward, and the front bites again.

quote Originally posted by RickN: We'll have to export a NASCAR race to the Manchester area and get you up on the terminology.

The only circle track racing we do here is banger racing - not quite the same thing! lol!

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes. I get understeer & oversteer mixed up push being when you turn the wheel, and the car keeps "pushing" forward - guessing this is understeer loose being when you turn the wheel, and the rear end comes out from under you. coming "loose" - oversteer? Fiero's come stock, as most cars do, with "push" it is a safety issue, because the natural instinct when the car slides, is to let off the throttle. this shifts weight forward, and the front bites again.

Gotcha, know wha you mean now

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: well, I would expect the topic starter would want his car to handle nicely. and, no, I dont use the zero lash links.

I would expect the question, unmistakably written as "Front endlinks, poly or Rodney's Zero Lash End Links?" to be exactly what was being asked. You are quite knowledgeable about handling and I can't stop you from hijacking the thread but I'm grateful for everyone who wants to support my orphaned car especially when it comes to a piece that is this superbly engineered. I'm tired of those who want to bash these products and tell us what they think might happen if you use them. So far every one using the product has been positive about it. The only neighsayers as usual are those who have not tried the product.

quote Originally posted by KN16: I would expect the question, unmistakably written as "Front endlinks, poly or Rodney's Zero Lash End Links?" to be exactly what was being asked. You are quite knowledgeable about handling and I can't stop you from hijacking the thread but I'm grateful for everyone who wants to support my orphaned car especially when it comes to a piece that is this superbly engineered. I'm tired of those who want to bash these products and tell us what they think might happen if you use them. So far every one using the product has been positive about it. The only neighsayers as usual are those who have not tried the product.

I was only reading, but I see absolutely noplace where anybody bashed anything of Rodney's. Quite the opposite.

Thanks for all of the input everyone. I never would have expected for this topic to generate what seems like a slightly heated discussion. After reading all of the posts here, it seems that the zero lash end links may be a good addition to my cars setup since I have just recently installed a rear bar with poly back there. I love how it feels with the new rear bar, but after reading many posts in other threads about rear swaybars causing oversteer, it really got me thinking about doing something with the front end, especially since I'm still running 25 year old rubber end links, it is time to replace them regardless. We all know that Rodney's parts are top-notch, I just was not sure if they were the best choice for me. I called and ordered a set this morning. I will post my thoughts on them after I get them installed. Thanks again, and please keep the info coming, I love to read other people's opinions on things like this, it may help me or someone else tweak their suspensions just a little more if they are just not quite happy with their setups yet.

quote Originally posted by Gandalf: I'm part way through installing my RD links - I can't get grip on the joint to tighten the bottom nut though! I'm thinking about either using a dremel to square off the end of the shaft to get a grip on it - any thoughts/better suggestions? Problem is that I can't get the little spnner provided onto the flats - the spring and/or the lip of the arm is in the way!

anyone?

quote Originally posted by KN16: I would expect the question, unmistakably written as "Front endlinks, poly or Rodney's Zero Lash End Links?" to be exactly what was being asked. You are quite knowledgeable about handling and I can't stop you from hijacking the thread but I'm grateful for everyone who wants to support my orphaned car especially when it comes to a piece that is this superbly engineered. I'm tired of those who want to bash these products and tell us what they think might happen if you use them. So far every one using the product has been positive about it. The only neighsayers as usual are those who have not tried the product.

again - noone bashed the product. in fact everyone has sofar agreed it was a great product.
what I am trying to do is help select the RIGHT product for his setup. does he need more front bar or rear bar? is he pushing more, or is the rear loose? as mentioned already - good chance Rodneys Zero lash links are EXACTLY what he needs, being he has in fact added a rear bar, and did mount it with poly. he probably has to much rear bar right now. for a zero dollar fix - just swapping the rubber from the front & the poly in back would return him to balanced, at no cost at all.

again - Rodney has great products
I have many in my Fiero right now

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: again - noone bashed the product. in fact everyone has sofar agreed it was a great product. what I am trying to do is help select the RIGHT product for his setup. does he need more front bar or rear bar? is he pushing more, or is the rear loose? as mentioned already - good chance Rodneys Zero lash links are EXACTLY what he needs, being he has in fact added a rear bar, and did mount it with poly. he probably has to much rear bar right now. for a zero dollar fix - just swapping the rubber from the front & the poly in back would return him to balanced, at no cost at all. again - Rodney has great products I have many in my Fiero right now

I would question (from my own, admittedly limited, perspective) that swapping rubber and poly round on the front and the rear would have the desired effect - Most of the lash in drop links comes not from the compression of the bushings, but the angular movement of the shaft during initial movement. Not wishing to start an argument here, and if I'm wrong, please come in and correct me, but the best way forward without getting a bigger front bar is almost certainly with the zero lash links. - and again this is my view from thinking about it and what I have read, I can't really comment from personal experience just yet.

Just my 2p.

[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited 09-17-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: go and install these things, you will even more increase the front end push of the car.... ..., it wont actually handle better. real world, you're just reducing total available grip by almost completely eliminating body roll. Just making the car feel "flat", like a go-kart is cute - but it actually doesnt improve handling. again - noone bashed the product

That many negative comments about a product you've neither used tested nor even held in your hands qualifies as bashing.

quote Originally posted by KN16: That many negative comments about a product you've neither used tested nor even held in your hands qualifies as bashing.

that is not about the product - it is about creating an unbalanced setup
Brembo Brakes are a great product, no? if you install a 10.25" rotor w/6 piston calipers on only the front wheels - you will LOSE braking.
because it is unbalanced.
you need to take the rear into account when prescribing a solution for the front.

Wow... making statements about proper use of a product now counts as bashing it.

KN16: The problem here is that you just don't seem to understand what Pyrthian is trying to accomplish. Pointing out how changes in one part of the suspension can cause changes in other parts is just plain good advice. I don't care what/how good the product is, if it's used incorrectly what's the point?

quote Originally posted by carbon: you just don't seem to understand what Pyrthian is trying to accomplish.

I understand He's making assumptions about a product he's never used, tested or even held.

When you say "go and install these things, you will even more increase the front end push of the car.... ..., it wont actually handle better." it's not a general statement it's about this specific product. No one who has used these has piped up and said anything negative. The original question was not show off your suspension tuning knowledge it was SPECIFICALLY how does this product compare to poly. Having never even seen them to say they will not make your car handle better in the face of people who are using them and are experiencing better handling is in fact bashing the product that the original question was about.

quote Originally posted by KN16: I understand He's making assumptions about a product he's never used, tested or even held.

True, but he's not making assumptions about the quality of the product. He's acknowledging that Rodney's product are nothing other than the finest you can get for Fieros. But he is pointing out that improper application of this product could have unintended consequences.

I think we should stop using the phrase "handles better" and "handles worse". Better or worse is subjective.. What Pyrthian should have said is more/less understeer/oversteer, and more/less grip. For some people, flatter cornering is better handling. For some, more grip means better handling. For some, massive oversteer is their idea of better handling. Sway bars determine the front and rear roll stiffness. You get this front/rear roll stiffness balanced properly, your grip increases dramatically. BUT... the car can become less stable. Generally, quicker steering, and higher grip translate to less stability, which is great for a race car, and CAN be good for a street car, but it depends on the driver. If I had my Fiero set up with lots of oversteer, I'd have a blast hanging out the rear end, but I'd never let anyone else drive it.

As for RD links vs poly, I suspect that RD's links have less lash than poly, which has the effect of increasing roll stiffness, but poly is already stiff, so the difference should be small. So, if you put them on the front, they should act like a slightly stiffer bar. But they should also have less binding and provide a freer action for the suspension.

quote Originally posted by Formula Owner: he is pointing out that improper application of this product could have unintended consequences.

If you read what he said, he is making assumptions and directly said this product would have an adverse affect on handeling. When one has never seen a product to start spouting "facts" as to what it will or won't do is irresponsible.

quote Originally posted by KN16: If you read what he said, he is making assumptions and directly said this product would have an adverse affect on handeling. When one has never seen a product to start spouting "facts" as to what it will or won't do is irresponsible.

You are wrong. Notice how you are the only one saying he's bashing them, and everyone else is disagreeing with you...

He is saying they will have an adverse affect on handling 'IF' they are put on the front of a Fiero that only has a front bar. That's it. That's all he's saying.

That means he thinks they would work very well. So well, in fact, that you should have a rear setup to balance it out, otherwise the front by itself will be too stiff.

quote Originally posted by jaybeezi: You are wrong. Notice how you are the only one saying he's bashing them, and everyone else is disagreeing with you...

It would have been nice if this thread had died the death it deserves. If you must come in to it two months later it would be nice if you read it to catch up with what happened.

As detailed earlier here is where he SPECIFICLY said this product won't work.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: go and install these things, you will even more increase the front end push of the car.... ..., it wont actually handle better. real world, you're just reducing total available grip by almost completely eliminating body roll. Just making the car feel "flat", like a go-kart is cute - but it actually doesnt improve handling. again - noone bashed the product

You can spout theory about handeling all you want but when you apply it to a new product that you have never even seen and then imply that your theory is fact you are by definition bashing the product.

Further more if you care to go back and read the thread "everyone" did not disagree with me. The only other person who came forth and is using the product said they work to the point he is running two Fiero's and is adapting them to a third vehicle. How many cars do you have with this product installed?

[This message has been edited by KN16 (edited 11-22-2009).]

quote Originally posted by KN16: You can spout theory about handeling all you want but when you apply it to a new product that you have never even seen and then imply that your theory is fact you are by definition bashing the product.

One doesn't have to have practical experience with a product to know the effect it will have on the car.

All you need is a basic understanding of suspension.

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: One doesn't have to have practical experience with a product to know the effect it will have on the car. All you need is a basic understanding of suspension.

Sorry but not having experience with the product means you are guessing. It may be an educated guess but it is still a guess. Everyone who has had practical experience seems to be opposing the educated guesses.

Man, you just don't get it do you!?

He never called the product bad, or "bashed" it as you keep putting. He only stated the affects it would/could have on a car.
Just because you put them on your car and "noticed a difference" does not not make you some kind of GD expert!

You do not have to have personal experience with any product, to know what it does.
I've never used a Tampon in my life, but I know exactly what they do.

You know, I saw a life looking for someone the other day, I'll see if I can find it for you....

Kevin

so, tell us how a Fiero, with no rear bar is going to benifit from this? explain how the car is made from the factory, with built in "push", by putting on a front sway bar, and that tightening that front bar add even more "push", DOESNT happen with Rodneys zero link endlinks, which are designed to increase the effectiveness of a sway bar?

I suppose if you want your Fiero to plow into turns more, have at it.
now - if you have added a rear sway bar, and your rear end is "looser" now - these zero link endlinks up front maybe EXACTLY what you want. you need to get your balance back. or, maybe you just need a little more, and Poly would do the job.

again - Rodneys zero lash endlinks are a great product. but, with no rear sway bar at all, just adding them up front will just make your Fiero plow into turns more. I know thats what will happen, because that is EXACTLY what is supposed to happen. because the end links are doing what they are designed to do, and they are doing a good job of it.
just as I know if you put bicycle tires up front, the car will plow more into turns. I dont need to buy & try bicycle tires to know that will happen.

I've been a Rodney customer for over 7 years. I am not bashing his products. I use & enjoy his stuff daily. especially the shifter cables. sooo smooth.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 11-23-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: You know, I saw a life looking for someone the other day, I'll see if I can find it for you.... Kevin

Let me get this straight. You have nothing to ad to the original topic, you've never used the product in question. You are just here to pick on a two month old scab and see what you can stir up?