I have a stock 86 GT motor in my, well, 86 GT. I just had the timing set replaced on it and the mechanic had to pull the heads off and remove the engine before he figured out the car not starting was a timing issue. But that's another story.

I have had the car for 4 days after a 3 week hiatus while it was in the shop, and driven it about 500 miles. I THOUGHT that the lifters were ticking, as the mechanic mentioned they might, but this could have been some very slight knocking. You could really hear it at about 3K RPM's, but not really before that. Once the car hit 3K, the noise got a lot louder.

Question 1. Does the fact that it got significantly louder at around 3K RPM's suggest it was knocking or the lifters were ticking pretty bad? I know they were ticking beforehand as my mechanic told me they were and to let him know if it got worse.

Question 2 starts here. I turned the car off for about 10 minutes while I met my girlfriend in a parking lot. When she got back in the car with me, right when I started it up it had the unmistakable sound of some moderately bad knocking. No ifs ands or buts about it this time. The car was on for no more than 15 seconds total, and it was never revved past 2k rpms. The oil pressure gauge read absolutely nothing.

Question 2. Is it likely once I put a new oil pump in this thing my engine is going to be bad?

Question 3. Am I wrong in assuming this is the oil pump? The oil gauge has been lighting up occasionally at idle for a couple days now, but ran around 50 when above 2,200 RPM's.

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Liberals are slowly destroying my faith in humanity. What little was left, anyway.

none of this sounds good. if I were to take a guess at this I would say the person working on your car did not know what they were doing.
at the least I would say that the top of the motor will need to come back off to see what was messed up.
also check to see if they even put oil back in the car and at what level.
before I would tear the motor down I would look at the basic stuff first.
don't quote me on any of this because I have not seen the car but from what you have posted this would be my best guess.
I hope for you it is something minor, good luck.
D.

Knocking is never good. Last time I heard that sound one of my rods punched a golfball sized hole through the block and smoked out about a mile of highway behind me. The fire dept showed up and everything.

Uh oh.

I just spent about 1,500 dollars getting stuff done to this engine thinking it was going to last damn near forever afterwards.

I can't believe this is happening. I'm having another and hopefully more reliable mechanic look at it this time. Hopefully it just needs a new oil pump. If this guy tells me the other mechanic did something wrong, do I have any options if he tells me "Not my problem."?

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: Uh oh. I just spent about 1,500 dollars getting stuff done to this engine thinking it was going to last damn near forever afterwards. I can't believe this is happening. I'm having another and hopefully more reliable mechanic look at it this time. Hopefully it just needs a new oil pump. If this guy tells me the other mechanic did something wrong, do I have any options if he tells me "Not my problem."?

none that work unless he is an upstanding guy and the best you could hope for is your money back.
unless you want to try to take him to court and that will cost and take forever.

My engine made a knocking above 2000 rpms once, shortly after the oil light came on (I now have an oil gauge). The engine spun a rod bearing. Basically required complete engine replacement, since the piston rings were shot.

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1984 Fiero SE

Well, supposedly he is an upstanding guy. This happened 400 miles after he pulled the heads off, disassembled the engine, and redid the timing set. A couple other misc things too. All in all, it cost me 1,506 dollars. I believe in coincidences, but you don't put an engine back together, test it and drive it and somehow miss a massive oil leak or oil pressure problem.

Good luck man... I really hope it works out for you.

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: Uh oh. I just spent about 1,500 dollars getting stuff done to this engine thinking it was going to last damn near forever afterwards. I can't believe this is happening. I'm having another and hopefully more reliable mechanic look at it this time. Hopefully it just needs a new oil pump. If this guy tells me the other mechanic did something wrong, do I have any options if he tells me "Not my problem."?

First of all, I would of never put 1,500$ into an engine when you can get a newly rebuilt 2.8L for close to that price.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but putting money here, and after there...into an engine having new parts and older parts, mixing up everything; your best bet is to buy a new rebuilt. Technically, after all this money and work, its not time to install an oil pump...that should of been done before.

Anyways, if that we're me an my engine would start to have problems all over...I'd wouldn't resist to install a rebuilt engine. These cars are past the 20year old mark. They'll have to be rebuilt some day (engine wise). And another thing, don't cut corners when rebuilding an engine...it will cost you more in the long run, and having to tear apart the engine or removing the engine, etc. Do it right once, and it will pay off in the long run...
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fierogt28

88 GT, loaded, 5-speed

[This message has been edited by fierogt28 (edited 08-19-2009).]

I wholeheartedly agree. The 1,500 dollar thing is a long story. I didn't get a quote or really have any idea of all the work that was being done. Yes, I know I got screwed. Yes, I chewed him out. No, I did not get any money back.

As far as a new oil pump, I don't have the money for a new engine now. I wish I would have done it to begin with but my mechanic didn't really keep me updated on the process and I got screwed.

I can get the oil pump replaced for 200 bucks. Hopefully that takes care of the problem. I've called a few buddies that know their way around a car, and apparently there is some hope that I didn't destroy my engine. If I did, it's getting a 3800 installed. I already have one.

In short, hindsight is 20/20, and I'll never have that mechanic do work for me again. But because of all that bad luck, I don't have the money to remedy the situation right now unless it's just the oil pump.

You Never Should have paid him in the first place. you Knew you were getting screwed BEFORE you picked it up. Now, at the VERY Least ( IF he did indeed re-cond the heads) which I seriously doubt, you still need a Rebuilt Shortblock. Now how bad are you going to get screwd if you Don't Do It yourself !? Sorry

You know beyond a doubt I need a rebuilt shortblock? Why? My dad had this happen to him and he had the oil pump replaced. The car ran another 80,000 miles or so before the engine blew. I understand it's probably but it might not be the case.

Find out YOURSELF, for sure. Won't cost you "a dime", Pull the oil pan, the engine doesn't have to come out. if you had 0 oil pressure, rods knocking, what do you think you'll find when the Rod And Main caps are removed ?? Once you SEE, I don't think you'll just "pop in an Oil Pump." I sure wouldn't. who knows, maybe there will be a miracle. good luck.

I hate seeing people getting $crewed especially when they break it off in you!!

If he knew the lifters were tapping when you picked it up, he should have readjusted them.
Something sounds "fishy".

My "non-Fiero" neighbor got a similar Screwing when the mechanic told him they pulled the head, yada, yada. I looked at it and you could still see the original factory paint on the edge of the original head gasket.

Come to us first before commiting your Fiero to a questionable mechanic.

Whoever you get to replace the oil pump ask them to shake the rods while their in there. This could be worse than you think.

Spoon

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Two yeast spent their entire life "about 2 days" discussing what the purpose of life could be and not once did they even come close to the fact that they were making champagne. Quoted by: Unknown

an oil pump can be had for $50, IF, After YOU, pulling the pan, & pulling all the caps, Find All good bearings, then & only then, Put in the $50 oil pump Youself.( 3 hour job) Don' WASTE another $200 for something it May Not Need. you ask for advice, but you don;t seem to take it. Why ? do you not know how to turn a wrench ? too much money ? Thats what these cars are all about. Do it Yourself.

I can guarantee it does not just need an oil pump. Knocking comes from excessive bearing clearance. No matter how many new oil pumps you put in, you can't "un-do" the bearing wear that has led to what you're hearing.

You can get lucky... I know knocking is never a good thing, but I had my oil changed on vacation one time, and they cross-threaded my oil plug. 20-30 miles down the road, trouble light and knocking. Ford T-Bird, 3.8 SC. Turned the car off, went to the auto parts store, and spent a day of my vacation fixing a cross-threaded oil plug. Refilled it with heavier oil and drove it 1300 miles home to Ohio with my fingers crossed. That engine had a total of 248000 miles when I traded it in. The plug incident was at 112000. You did the right thing by turning it off as soon as you heard the knocking.

Yes, I understand it's going to be a lucky chance if the engine still runs, but like the last guy said, it can happen. I don't have the money for a new engine right now. I do have the money for an oil pump, and according to the guy I took it to, he can pull the distributor and check to see if the oil pump is locked up before dropping the pan. He's doing that for free.

I DO appreciate the advice. Just trying to get an idea of what to expect, not trying to make anyone feel like I'm demanding an explanation when you can't even see the car.

Buddy you really should try to learn more about your car so you don't have to depend on some shady mechanic to tell you what's wrong with it. I think a LOT of guys here on the forums probably started out fixing these things themselves out of necessity.

Geeze we could probably start a new thread on the subject... "how I got into fixing fieros"

Here's mine. I'm 19 and saved up all summer in 1999 to buy my first car - a red 88 coupe for $900. 3 weeks later I need a clutch and nobody will touch it for less than $1200 bucks. I bought a book and used my dad's tools and did it myself. Boy did I learn how to turn a wrench that year!

The man is fishing for options, so give him something he can use. I put a lot of miles on old, tired, knocking engines in my youth. Heavy oil will mask a lot of engine wear, and STP was magic. Put in the oil pump, run 20-50 oil and 2 or 3 cans of STP. You might be surprised. Yes, it might be too late, but cheap to find out. That heavy oil will do well until it gets cold enough to cause hard cranking.

The ONLY Sensible Option IS, "while the Pan is OFF to install the pump, LOOK at the bearings". WHY would he NOT do this ?!

Dropping an oil pan can be a bit intimidating at first, but in your case you have little to lose and a lot to gain. While the pan is off, take some pix and post them... I remember you posting about the timing issue (Mech said it was skipping teeth, right?)... I will try to think of some things that could have been re-assembled wrong that could have caused an oil issue... I'm not sold on the oil pump being the problem, since I read through your experience with this mechanic doing a major teardown before discovering the problem. Oil pump going bad seems too coincidental. Wondering if your mechanic put everything back correctly when he re-assembled your engine. Don't be afraid to start digging around looking for things, and ask many questions of the people on this forum. (A lot of them have virtually built these Fieros from scratch). Nobody is born a mechanic, but anyone can learn if they're patient.

I understand about learning to work on your own car, believe me. My first car was an 89 Ford Escort. hahaha.

My second car was an 87 Coupe I got for 1,000 dollars that needed a lot of stuff shortly afterwards. I had never really worked on cars before, and I learned to do brakes, change a water pump on a duke, replace an exhaust manifold, change plugs and wires, change my own oil, and a ton of other misc. stuff. And believe me, that mechanic is never touching my car again after this mess is sorted out. The guy I have working on it now is a career drunk, but he's 72 and has been a mechanic since he was 16. I've dealt with him before and the only reason I didn't take it to him before the other guy is that "he's too old for that **** " when it comes to even moderate engine work. Dropping the oil pan is going to cost me 15 bucks aside from oil, and he already told me he would check things out once he gets in there. If the engine is toast, I'm out 15 bucks. If it needs an oil pump, I'm looking at 200 including parts and oil. If he finds something that was reassembled incorrectly, I'll be glad I took it to him. That's why I don' want to do it. I just don't have the eye for things inside an engine yet and if this engine is bad because of a mistake made my the first mechanic, I don't want to miss it.

If this helps, here is what the first guy did.

Dropped cradle, removed heads from engine, cleaned valves, polished heads, replaced water pump and gasket for free because he somehow cracked something, replaced timing set, retimed engine, filled with Mobil1 5W-30 full synthetic (Although I requested he use 10W-30), test drove the car and gave it back to me.

I know he did do all the work. If nothing else, he is honest. My family has been dealing with him a long time. As far as his competence, I'm beginning to wonder, obviously, but if this was his fault I feel he's not going to screw me over.

And again, thanks for all the advice. Sometimes I don't know what I would do without this forum.

On a side not, if my engine is toast, does anybody know of somebody that will install the 3800 Series II I have lying around in this thing for a reasonable price near Indiana?

[This message has been edited by MadDanceSkillz (edited 08-20-2009).]

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: On a side not, if my engine is toast, does anybody know of somebody that will install the 3800 Series II I have lying around in this thing for a reasonable price near Indiana?

Give it a shot yourself man!!! Do you need a quick turnaround on it?

I remember your other story about this mechanic,and you weren't sure if you were getting screwed or not.

Just from the fact you weren't quoted a price or updated on the cost or estimated repairs the first time around I would be contacting my state attorney general.
In most state's mechanics are bound to give an estimate of repair before doing any work.
There is a cost limit that once exceeded must be approved by the customer.

Sounds like he broke these rules,and you might not be liable to pay him for anything he did over your instruction's.
Especially since he did not keep you apprised of possible costs.

Call your local state attorney general and ask them what the laws are for your state.
There is a good chance you will get some or all of your money back from the previous repair.

I've thought about trying the swap myself, but I do need a reasonable turnaround on it and if I did it I think it would be a 2 summer project. hahaha. I'd like to get someone local to do it for me. Doesn't even have to be a shop. I've heard GREAT things about Ryan at Sinister Performance, but that would be some very expensive work. Not saying that's not reasonable or anything. I know a good reputation costs more. Unfortunately, I can't afford that particular reputation right now.

I've already talked to an attorney in the family, and he told me good luck getting anything back. It's my word against his that he didn't call me and tell me what he was doing. I'm getting a 70k 3800SC from him for 150 bucks, though, so I suppose that helps even it out a bit. Still really sucks, though.

I'm getting pretty tired of the 2.8 anyway. I'm probably just going to cut my losses and upgrade the engine.

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: I've thought about trying the swap myself, but I do need a reasonable turnaround on it and if I did it I think it would be a 2 summer project. hahaha. I'd like to get someone local to do it for me. Doesn't even have to be a shop. I've heard GREAT things about Ryan at Sinister Performance, but that would be some very expensive work. Not saying that's not reasonable or anything. I know a good reputation costs more. Unfortunately, I can't afford that particular reputation right now.

David,
I have been to Ryan's shop twice now. His shop is clean, his work is outstanding and his labor is very reasonable (and the work will be right the first time). If you want him to do the work for you, contact him. I believe he has a waiting list and he contacts you when you're next. Not sure what his schedule is like right now. I am trying my 3800sc swap myself but if I choke on it, I can haul it up to him. He is 3 hours from me and my first choice if I have to have someone do the work... Plus he is in your backyard...

IF the oil pump is bad, I think it is a very unfortunate coincidence. I read your other thread and I don't see what your mechanic did that should have caused the oil pump to fail (he even did an oil change). Based on your previous thread, if he thought the oil pump was bad, wouldn't he just replace it and charged you for it? Seems like he took a shotgun approach and attacked everything... But since you paid the full bill, it seems like he would have replaced whatever he thought was bad...

Just my $0.25 since $0.02 doesn't even get you a gumball anymore...


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-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/094633.html

[This message has been edited by MulletproofMonk (edited 08-20-2009).]

Hey, Brian. I'm hoping my oil pump being bad was just a coincidence. My oil light would come on occasionally before, and that was when the car was running a mix between 10w-30 and 15W-40. The mechanic filled it with 5W-30. That's most of the reason I'm holding out any hope. I've e-mailed back and forth with Ryan and he does seem like a nice guy. He was extremely helpful and took time to answer my questions even though I told him I could not afford his services.

David

You might clarify with the attorney what the actual laws are.

Since he said it's your word against his,that might mean he doesn't need a signed go ahead to perform the work.

Alot of lawyer's say "good luck getting anything" simply because the person is not bonded/insured which assures
if you sue them somebody will pay.

Most lawsuit's against individuals simply get bankruptcied,so lawyer's won't mess with them unless you pay them up front.
And then they don't guarentee collection of any judgement as it's dependent on the person really.

Call the state attorney general's office and see what the actual law says regarding this if you really think he screwed you.
State's really crack down on shops,it is extremely easy for a shop to screw someone over.
I know some disreputable people that do it cause they know the people can't/won't pay or do anything about it.
They just file a title 42 on the car with a mechanic's lien and now they own it.

He didn't need written consent. That battle was over before I realized it had began, unfortunately. Thanks for the advice, though, Eddie.

something no one has brought up. If the timing chain was SOO bad, (did they still use the nylon covered cam gears in the 2.8??) maybe your oil pump pickup is plugged up with what was left of the cam gear ! surely the first guy DIDN'T clean out the pan !

Mad,

I just skimmed through this thread. You most likely have a bad rod bearing. If the pump is bad, you will have no pressure at any RPM. The knocking is a sign of a spun rod bearing too. Even if you pull the dist. and manually check the pump, you may not get any pressure due to a bad bearing - or 2. Cheap check is to intsall a 15.00 maunal gauge and start the engine. See what the pressure is, at idle. Tap the manual gauge in right at the oil filter.

If you pull the pan to replace the pump, check he rod bearings one at a time. If you find a bad bearing, you may be able to save it. Depends on how scarred up the crank is. I have polished crank rod journals with emory cloth and installed a new bearing and got another 30 to 40k out of an engine. It may be worth a try to insall a new pump, replace a bearing or two and get some more life out of the old girl.

Now THERE'S a good idea. According to him it was actually jumping every compression stroke. He gave me the chain and it did look pretty worn. It was a 115k mile chain. I figured one of the previous owners had the sense to replace it but apparently not.

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: Hey, Brian. I'm hoping my oil pump being bad was just a coincidence. My oil light would come on occasionally before, and that was when the car was running a mix between 10w-30 and 15W-40. The mechanic filled it with 5W-30. That's most of the reason I'm holding out any hope. I've e-mailed back and forth with Ryan and he does seem like a nice guy. He was extremely helpful and took time to answer my questions even though I told him I could not afford his services. David

Your rod bearings are probably very very worn, your low oil pressure was from the worn bearings, switching to a heavy 15W40 will hide the worn bearing fact. putting in 5W30 allowed you to hear how bad your bearings are and they probably are worn that bad to not show you any oil pressure. Running thicker oil makes the symptoms go away ,it does not stop the crank and rods from smashing the bearing into paper. because they now are impacting on them instead of riding on them. the 2.8 has really bad oiling on the lower part of the engine, they fixed it in 88.

This is from my personal experience. If your car was run with 15W40 in it, it was done to make the oil pressure gauge read higher because the rod and main bearings were bad already.

your oil pump can also be very worn so the lighter oil is simply slipping by not building pressure.

you can limp it along, but it's throwing away money. Install your swap engine.

He showed you the "old chain", ya know what you can tell from an old chain ? NOTHING. Did he show you the GEARS ? Like said above, remove the Caps one at a time, OR use a number STAMP and stamp the # into the caps, so they can't get mixed up. ( if you mix up rod caps, your rods are worth Nothing) If you are giving the job to a "career Drunk", MAKE SURE He stamps them !

Lou,

Also have the gears in the box with the chain.

I'm thinking it's time for that engine swap. This 2.8 has been trouble from the getgo.

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: Hey, Brian. I'm hoping my oil pump being bad was just a coincidence. My oil light would come on occasionally before, and that was when the car was running a mix between 10w-30 and 15W-40. The mechanic filled it with 5W-30. That's most of the reason I'm holding out any hope. I've e-mailed back and forth with Ryan and he does seem like a nice guy. He was extremely helpful and took time to answer my questions even though I told him I could not afford his services. David

From what you've described you don't have to remove the pan to confirm what all of us here for the most part already know, a rod bearing has spun. Drain your oil after warming the engine up and let it settle or run a magnet through it, you should be able to recover metal or see enough metal in the oil to not need to bother. That's probably the most common reason some of us have acquired a great deal on a V6 Fiero. If your oil light flickered at least once before you ever took the car to the mechanic as indicated above and you are mixing oils to keep the pressure up, the engines fate was sealed from the start. The death nail was probably driven when the car was test driven after the repair, it's a unique little sports car, I highly doubt it was just test driven around the block. In that condition all it takes is one hard run on an already prone to bearing spin engine to do it in. Just my experience from having done it.

Your description fits what happened to my car purchased with a slight rod knock, on the way home I pushed it just a little merging on the hwy and immediately the knock intensified, by the time I got it home it sounded like there was one rod bolt holding it on and that was after stopping along the way and adding about 2 or 3 qts of 20W-50. I wish I had encouraging news for you but I'm pretty sure thinking anything less than bearing failure is denial, unless your "luck is so good the horse is trying to get your shoe".

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-21-2009).]

"Did I ruin my engine?"

No.

It reads as though your engine was ruined before you bought it.

as someone mentioned above - when these motors spin a rod bearing - the knock usually appears around 2k RPM - but - obviously - not a set in stone thing

anyways - this noise can also easily be a loose exhaust manifold bolt (or more than one)
this makes a tick which sounds like lifter noise, and if bad - can get the manifold slapping against the heads making a helluva racket at higher RPMs
checking the oil will be step #1 in finding out which - look for the metallic sparklies of the ground away bearing
and - then check the exhaust manifold bolts. the ones on the firewall side are tough - especially with the heat shield in the way

From what I hear on the car forums I frequent, Mobile 1 5w-30 can make just about any older engine knock. I don't hear many good things about that oil at all. It sounds like it's on the very thin side of a 5w oil. Not too many problems with the 10w-30 though, and if you get the "High Mileage" version, it's even thicker. I switched to Shell Rotella Synthetic 5w-40 and haven't looked back. Not only do I have easy starts and nice warm oil pressure, but I have the higher ZDDP content that the engine should be getting, not what the EPA says I should have.