O.K. I am thinking again...uh oh. It seems like good physics to warm the gasoline prior to mixing with air. That way the viscosity is reduced and it would mix more completely with the air. THUS the air fuel mix will vaporize more completely. I.E. better gas mileage and more horse power AND smoother running engine..... Elementary Watson.


Now I know a lot of you guys are gonna shout hot air lower compression = weak and slow. But we must remember it's 14 parts air and only 1 part liquid fuel. Now just how much can that little bit of liquid fuel warm up the entire air fuel mixture boys? Remember, reducing the viscosity is only for that moment when the air and gasoline meet.

I am making a fuel heater using the cooling system via a simple thermalcouple as we speak. Think of it as Smokey Yunicks thing minus the hot air....

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

As you've pointed out, liquid fuel takes up very little room in the intake manifold.

The problem is that when you heat the fuel up, it changes phase from liquid to vapor, and suddenly takes up several times the space in the intake manifold. When you displace a whole bunch of air from the intake manifold, you make less power. If you're not after power, so much the better.

You have it exactly backwards for making good power. Racers have been using fuel cooling boxes for years because cool fuel delivers more power. That said, Smokey Yunick put all that on its ear with his vapour engine. Based on the relative skill levels most of us have however, sticking with cool fuel is the best option IMHO

Arn

Cold fuel is more dense, you can get more fuel in a given area of volume. If what you propose was true, all racing teams from Nascar, NHRA, IRL, Formula One, World of Outlaws etc to go carts would use a fuel heater,and none of them do.

stock most cars heat the air not the fuel
hot air starts and runs better esp in cold weather
but racers will block the hot water passages in the intake manifold
to keep the air colder as denser air makes more power

hot fuel does get more vapor and less drops of fuel
but motors tend to be hot anyway
and compression heats the air fuel mix too

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

If you looked at what Smokey had done he was heating the fuel to vaporize it and mix with the air as a vapor. His theory was gasoline as a liquid does not burn (true). The gasoline must vaporize and mix with air to provide a combustible mixture This was done before the mixture got into the engine. Fuel injectors won't pass fuel vapors. The injectors are designed to pass a liquid not a gas (vapor). Heating the fuel will only make it less dense and the injector would have to increase it's duty cycle to keep the A/F in the correct range.

Read on the internet about Smokey's engine.
No Flame intended

Joe Sokol

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85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC build underway
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

The thing that made Smokey's engine work is that he put his heated fuel under pressure so that it did not take up more space, as mentioned above. The temperature and pressure have to be very carefully controlled -- a heated fuel and air mixture that is not in a combustion chamber could be trouble!

Alright...
Now I was thinking that warmer GASOLINE will vaporize more effeciently coming out from the injector when it mixes with COOL ambient temperature air. To clarify... Anyone argue with that idea? Any geniuses out there?

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

To try out your idea run your car on a track or dino, some way to measure some part of its performance.
Then find a hardware store that sells plumbing supplies, get about ten feet of 1/4" or 3/8" soft copper tubing like goes to the ice maker on your fridge. (copper not plastic) It usually comes in a coil to start with but find a 4" to 6" round pipe that is open on one end so you can slide your coil off after you are done . Slow and gentle wrap the tubing around the bigger pipe leaving a little space between each loop. Leave about a foot or so strait at each end that you can connect to some fuel rated rubber tubing. You have just built the heat transfer tube part of a whisky still, you will be using it in reverse. Hang the coils of copper tubing NEAR NOT ON a heater (exhaust header). And so that you don't creat a bomb, test how hot the liquid running through your coil will be by using water. If the water comes out warm your good to go if it comes out very hot move the coil away from the heat and try again.
You should be able to test your idea quick and easy and have about $15.00 involved.
Good Luck.

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quote Originally posted by pegasus1848: Hang the coils of copper tubing NEAR NOT ON a heater (exhaust header). And so that you don't creat a bomb...

I don't think this "fuel heater" idea is all that great to be playing around with. (Not just the one mentioned in the quote above.)

Positive results will probably be negligible. Negative results could potentially be deadly.

We’ve all seen how some “mechanics” can totally screw cars up. I shudder to think what some guys could end up doing while playing around re-routing fuel lines around hot components.

Be careful guys... be very very careful.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-21-2009).]

I think this would be a good idea for a commuter car, for the better gas mileage. So, get two fieros, one for "fun" and one for getting your rear to work

Neat idea. I'd like to see it tried out, albeit safely. If you do pegasus' test idea keep in mind that water has a higher heat capacity than gasoline. What makes water warm could make gasoline hot. But your idea, as the other guys have been saying, sounds like a good efficiency idea. As with all combustion reactions diffusion of the air/fuel mixture is imperative. The better diffusion the more efficient the combustion will be. But you already seem to understand this. To the best of my understanding, it's the same principle as top alcohol motors. I'm not an expert in this area, but I know the fuel contains it's own oxidizer and thus burns so well. The oxygen is already part of the fuel, so it's diffused before it's even injected.
Smokey Yunick also understood this concept, evident in his design. Does anyone know of any major accidents with his design? It's a great idea for efficiency and power, but in terms of potential detonation... seems big. I downloaded all the patent material for his designs, but I haven't studied it yet. And I'm told it isn't complete.

White 84 SE, when I first read your idea, I thought, you don't have to move any fuel lines at all. I think you could just put a coolant line sleeve/jacket over part of the existing fuel line, as close to the TB as possible, though I'm not sure you will see any difference. Definitely keep us updated if you go on with it.

Michael

Superheated gasoline tends to vaporize instantly when introduced into the intake manifold of the engine, becoming a more finely divided particulate of gasoline molecules, which provide extra surface for combustion, resulting in more complete burning of gasoline. The more complete burning of fuel results in lower emissions and better fuel mileage.

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Scoobysruvenge

I have posted this before , but I knew a man that used a motorcycle carb(constant velocity) attached to 3 heater cores and then down into the intake. The best he got was 35 mpg and I think it would have been better if he had used a hot air intake going into the carb. It ran ALOT smoother with this setup instead of stock but as far as power, I dont really know. I did ride in it and it seemed to have plenty of power for normal driving but im sure it was not something for the race track. It was a Plymoth Fury III with a smallblock 400 cid.

Steve

The latent heat of vaporization (amount of heat absorbed when the fuel changes from liquid to gas) is many times that which is absorbed to warm the fuel.. Point being, when the fuel is atomized and evaporated in the intake, it pulls a LOT of heat out of the charge (which is a good thing).

The only reason you'd want the air mix warmed is if your fuel charge isn't properly atomizing, and if that's the case, clean/replace your injectors. The reason your buddy's heater-core carb setup worked is that it created a high velocity, high turbulence, warm area for the gasoline to evaporate on the way to the intake. Carbs are just a controlled fuel leak in the air.

As far as warming the fuel:
The benefit you'd get is almost nil, because even if you heat the fuel to almost it's boiling point (very dangerous in my humble opinion), it still takes ORDERS of magnitude add'l energy to evaporate it when the charge is sprayed, meaning all your effort is almost wasted. You want the coldest, densest charge you can get, that will still completely atomize/evap the fuel.

I believe that the injectors on the v6 engine fire right after intake valve close, and spray almost onto the back of the intake valve to make sure it has plenty of time to evap before intake valve opens again, but since it's a batch fire engine, one or two cyl's are always getting screwed..

The duke's injector is like a carb (TBI), just computer controlled. I think TBI still atomizes better than carbs if running properly though.

quote Originally posted by Fierology: Neat idea. I'd like to see it tried out, albeit safely. If you do pegasus' test idea keep in mind that water has a higher heat capacity than gasoline. What makes water warm could make gasoline hot. But your idea, as the other guys have been saying, sounds like a good efficiency idea. As with all combustion reactions diffusion of the air/fuel mixture is imperative. The better diffusion the more efficient the combustion will be. But you already seem to understand this. To the best of my understanding, it's the same principle as top alcohol motors. I'm not an expert in this area, but I know the fuel contains it's own oxidizer and thus burns so well. The oxygen is already part of the fuel, so it's diffused before it's even injected. Smokey Yunick also understood this concept, evident in his design. Does anyone know of any major accidents with his design? It's a great idea for efficiency and power, but in terms of potential detonation... seems big. I downloaded all the patent material for his designs, but I haven't studied it yet. And I'm told it isn't complete. White 84 SE, when I first read your idea, I thought, you don't have to move any fuel lines at all. I think you could just put a coolant line sleeve/jacket over part of the existing fuel line, as close to the TB as possible, though I'm not sure you will see any difference. Definitely keep us updated if you go on with it. Michael

I am with you Mike. I have already tried out a COOLANT re routing making that distillery typed coil idea and wrapped the FUEL FILTER can (which is ideal) with the coils. I had issues with coolant flow which I plan to rectify later this week. This design will definitely heat the gasoline just before the TBI. The fuel system has a valve preventing reverse flow but my worry is the fuel return of unused fuel. This may warm up the gas tank and kablooey at the gas pump.....yikes. Best to plug the return I think.

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 07-21-2009).]

hot fuel is asking to be lean

lean mix = hot = burned up parts
rich mix=cool = parts last longer

go too lean and hot
pistons melt or hole
valves burn
way too hot and the whole thing will seize up
also knocking is heat related

now too rich can hurt too
but slower and less major damage
mostly by washing oil off
or thining oil

general rule you are better off a little rich then lean

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

I am not 100% that heating fuel will result in leaner mixture. The o2 sensor will regulate lean/rich. I think the result will be simply smaller gasoline particles prior to mixing with air and thus more complete atomization. Every combustion event has a mixture of liquid and vaporous fuel. The heated intake manifold sorta addresses this but winds up heating the air fuel mixture which will reduce the available o2 in the air. My idea uses regular air and heated gasoline. The heating reduces the gasolines viscosity and brings it closer to combustion temperature. The energy it takes to combust the fuel will be reduced as the heat from a previous combustion is recycled instead of bleeded off as unused heat. Overdoing it will lead to detonation but theres no reason to over do it. Tuning with a valve controlling temperature may improve performance and efficiency without detonation. Not sure of course... But hopefully no harm trying if done cautiously.

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

hot fuel will be less dense = lean
I would not count on a stock chip being able to correct fuel/air
remember you got 80's teck chips in there
maybe with a wide band O2 and custom controler/programing

I just hope the car is a toy
and not a daily driver you need to work

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: hot fuel will be less dense = lean I would not count on a stock chip being able to correct fuel/air remember you got 80's teck chips in there maybe with a wide band O2 and custom controler/programing I just hope the car is a toy and not a daily driver you need to work

Thanks man!
Now the gasoline WILL be less dense but that is prior to mixing with cool air. The whole idea is to get a more complete mix. By the way that high pressure injecter idea seems good. Anyone know if they got aftermarket stuff?

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

In the 1930's there was a man by the name of Pogue that invented an evaporation carburetor that superheated the gasoline using the exhaust routed through pipes in a float chamber. The experiment and the end product were unsuccessful
In todays cars the O2 sensor picks up the oxygen content and the PCM adjusts the fueling to the stoichiometric ratio automatically. No other adjustment is needed or required.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-21-2009).]

for some reason, all this shouts out to me is "BOOOOOOM!!!"

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: In the 1930's there was a man by the name of Pogue that invented an evaporation carburetor that superheated the gasoline using the exhaust routed through pipes in a float chamber. The experiment and the end product were unsuccessful In todays cars the O2 sensor picks up the oxygen content and adjusts the fueling to the stoichiometric ratio automatically. No other adjustment is needed or required.

Thanks for that! I' ve checked out his patents and history on his ventures. He had a few working prototypes. Also a couple public sort of demos didnt he? Wasnt he the guy who went 200 miles on like a gallon of gas in a model T or something? I guess he never got backing. Who cared about it back then anyway?

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

quote Originally posted by White 84 SE: Thanks for that! I' ve checked out his patents and history on his ventures. He had a few working prototypes. Also a couple public sort of demos didnt he? Wasnt he the guy who went 200 miles on like a gallon of gas in a model T or something? I guess he never got backing. Who cared about it back then anyway?

Mr Pogues story was one that we can add to the conspiracy theorists who claim that the big oil companies suppressed and kept gas saving inventions off the market.
The Pogue evaporative carburetor was invented way before most of us were born so we can only read writings and documenation. Stories like this are used to sell books like
"Inventions that were suppressed" or "What happned to the 100 MPG carburetor?". Over the years many inventors have claimed to have a 100 MPG carburetor. Another was a guy by the name of Fish who marketed something called the Fish Carburetor. These snake oil gadgets were exactly that. Modern day fuel injection is the most efficient means to distribute gasoline and so far no one has proven otherwise
Here is what Nelson Pogues carburetor looked like

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-21-2009).]

Just FYI...Using the volumetric CTE for gasoline and heating by a delta 80*C from 20*C yields a .08% difference in volume. Again, that's 0.08 PERCENT. IOW if you heat 20 gallons of gasoline from room temperature to the boiling point of water, you'll have 20.01 gallons. This is a completely inconsequential amount, and valid ONLY if the fuel stays in its liquid state. Obviously this isn't saying there won't be major differences in what the fuel does to its surroundings when it changes state at different temps.

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My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build.
You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped its mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs. (Leader of the Insurgency)

snopes said 1% per 15 deg F rise over 60 deg F
btw thats volume liquid not counting vapor and about 10% at 20 to 80degC
and you get gas vapor at low temps
some bits boil as low as 100 deg F other up to 400 deg F
remember ''gasoline'' is not one thing but many molecules
too much heat and you vaporLOCK fuel lines
that sure will leanout a mix


http://www.snopes.com/inbox...ousehold/gastips.asp

To White 84 SE ... No I have not worked on this idea as much as you have. On Fiero #3 put some thought into the idea of warming the fuel and to that end I routed the gas line (heavy steel) nearer to the side of the exhaust header (not above) on an adjustable support arm. I had attached a remote temp sensor to the fuel line very near the tbi and insulated the sensor as much as I could with rock-wool. I don't remember what the temps actually where that I was working with but I do remember that I was aiming for a 2deg. increase over normal hot summer day. Never noted any real improvement to speak of, and about that time "cold air" became the in thing, so the idea kind of went to the back burner and was forgotten till I read your post. On #6 (my only v6) I actually was going in the other direction, it had the heater lines run to the intake body. I inserted a bypass valve in those lines so I could shut the heat off in the summer, trying to cool the air passing the butterfly. And then put the heat on in the winter so the butterfly does not ice up. I did notice a nice improvment in my summer time power and slight increase in the mpg's. As many have said in this thread, the key is complete mixing of a very vaoprized fuel, what ever the fuels temp. On the duke you have one tbi setting between 2&3, they get plenty of fuel maybe some in liguid form, 1&4 maybe dont get as much. I just had a silly idea. And I am going to have to think about this for a bit. I will get back to you soon
Steve

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I almost forgot.
I liked your idea of wraping a coolant tube around the fuel filter.
Throw in a bypass valve and some way to monitor the temp.
Sounds saver then what I did on my #3.

quote Originally posted by ray b: snopes said 1% per 15 deg F rise over 60 deg F btw thats volume liquid not counting vapor and about 10% at 20 to 80degC and you get gas vapor at low temps some bits boil as low as 100 deg F other up to 400 deg F remember ''gasoline'' is not one thing but many molecules too much heat and you vaporLOCK fuel lines that sure will leanout a mix http://www.snopes.com/inbox...ousehold/gastips.asp

Lost some zeroes in my CTE... 7.1% in my example above.

quote Originally posted by White 84 SE: I am with you Mike. I have already tried out a COOLANT re routing making that distillery typed coil idea and wrapped the FUEL FILTER can (which is ideal) with the coils. I had issues with coolant flow which I plan to rectify later this week. This design will definitely heat the gasoline just before the TBI. The fuel system has a valve preventing reverse flow but my worry is the fuel return of unused fuel. This may warm up the gas tank and kablooey at the gas pump.....yikes. Best to plug the return I think.

By 'plug' do you mean to eliminate the return? I think the return is very important, for I believe the fuel pump runs constantly, independent of demand. I haven't studied fuel systems much, though. That's on my list of things to do,

It's good to keep in mind that as you increase the pressure on a liquid the boiling point increases. If you keep the temperature and pressure within a certain balance ratio of each other, the fuel shouldn't vaporize until pressure is released, such as it's in the combustion chamber. Of course this is all from theory. It needs some good testing. I think this is part of what helps efi to work efficiently. The pressure is energy, just as heat is. Fuel is under some pressure, even though not super high. This is energy that the fuel does not have to absorb to vaporize and thus burn efficiently. When looking at heated air/fuel mixtures, I think the best one person to look to would be Smokey Yunick. He mastered the concept of efficient power through a heated carburetion system. His patents are on the website and easy to download.

This type of project calls for outside the box thinking. It calls for the belief that you can do it and ability to accept failed theories as positive criticism.

Michael

the question to answer in this thread is:

is there unburnt fuel?
if there is - there is more effiency to be had

now - what does the catalytic convertor do?
it burns unburnt fuel

this means even the current FI systems are NOT doing a good enough job, and have room for improvement

yes there is un burned fuel.
I remember reading that most car engines are approx 25% to 30%
That means 70 to 75% of the energy in the fuel is lost as waste heat and directly out the pipe as un used fuel.

well said pegasus and pyrithian

You need to be mindful of vapor lock. If the fuel gets too warm, it can boil in the lines. If that happens, the engine will die.

To prevent vapor lock, you will need to increase the pressure in the fuel system. The hotter it gets, the more pressure you need to keep it liquid. Plus, gasoline is made of several different chemicals, all mixed together. Different octane ratings, and even some different brands, will have different mixtures... which means different boiling points. In other words, it may take a bit of fiddling to make it "vapor lock proof".

quote Originally posted by Fierology: And I think Fieroboom would be interested...

Great name for anyone interested in this particular project.