Yeah, 88 L4 5sp with second gen. master. I don't think this one is weird, just... tricky.

Alright, I have been PM with DodgeRunner with this clutch issue and we can't seem to pin down the issue. I think both he and I have leaned toward the slave as the issue, or tiny gremlins that drink brake fluid. I wanted to open this up to other as well because the way my clutch is acting, and symptoms, point to the master. Problem is that the "look for this" part of diagnosis tell me that it is not the master. (second generation master) It seems like it is a slave issue, as the problem only arose after bleeding the clutch. (I bleed the clutch because it was engaging about 1/4 to 1/2 inch off the floor, and causing me to mis-shift 3rd and reverse on occasion.)

Here is where we have gotten.

My issue:
1. I have to "pump up the clutch" to get into gear.
2. There seems to be no fluid loss
A. There is no fluid on or around the slave or in the boot.
B. There is no fluid on or around the master
C. There is no fluid under the car
D. There is no fluid in the car under the dashboard behind the master (the "carpet" leak symptom is not present)
3. Fluid level does not change in the master.
A. Master is dry under the dust cap
4. The "pumping"issue only became a problem after I tried to bleed the clutch.
A. Clutch was fine before attempted bleeding. After bleed, the clutch began to develop problems.
B. The bleed screw was clogged and I had to sand off rust and clean out the bleed hole in the screw.
C. Used the "Archie" method to bleed. (Forgot to bleed slave at first. Had to re-bleed.)
5. If I am in gear and stopped, the clutch does NOT slowly engage. I can still on level ground in gear for at least 5 minutes (have not tested beyond 5 min.)

My last attempt was to gravity bleed (raised the drivers side tire about 6-8 inches off the ground, and it lifted the passengers side about 2-3) master was higher than the slave, and the bleeder screw was the highpoint of the slave.). It bleed pretty quickly, I was almost empty in the res. about every 60-75 seconds. I don't know if this is normal.

After G-bleed, the car was fine for about 2 days and the problem has come back again. The more I use the clutch the better it responds. If I am in the city, the clutch works well. If I am on the highway for a long period of time (20-30 min) I have to yank it into neutral, "pump" up the pressure, then shift into gear again.

Oh, and I get about 3/4-1 inch of travel in the slave when the clutch is depressed (closer to 7/8 inch travel) after the gravity bleed. No clutch parts have been replaced yet. (I am a teacher going into the summer... Didn't want to spend $100+ on the master to find out it was the slave, or vice versa)

Any ideas? (Craigg? James? anyone?)
Myke

------------------
Myke

PAST: 88 L4 5spd, 84 L4 auto, 88 L4 5spd, 87 L4 auto

Present: 84 L4 4spd, 88 L4 5spd

Future: Tomorrow will tell...

Debris from the cleaning of the bleeder hole is trapped against the piston seal, allowing air to be sucked in under certain circumstances. If it's working and you park your car in a steep drive with the nose down, does the problem appear? What about nose-up?

JazzMan

By hand... push/pull the clutch arm on the trans away from the slave cyl.

It sounds like there is to much return travel in the system. If the arm is lifting the throwout too far off the clutch, you'll get just this sort of thing because you have to keep pumping the slack out before the bearing makes contact again.

Check the cap on the MC tank... There should be a vent hole/passage in it someplace. (I'm not familiar with that specific cap.) Some have an obvious hole and others have a passage that opens a gap past the rubber gasket. The Brake MC cover is an example of the latter...

If that vent is blocked, it can cause pressure and/or vacuum in the MC. Vacuum acts like you've got an extra return spring, what sucks the fluid and slave back more than it should.

DO NOT make a hole in the rubber under the cap! That should not have a hole of any kind. The cap itself has a hole/passage to allow the rubber to move with the fluid level.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

from my experience, i would say the slave.

I just went through almost the same thing. Clutch bleed correctly, then worked fine for 1 outing, then air in the line again and loss of clutch. I found some fluid leak at the Slave up front, and replaced it. Still that was not the problem, but at least that was fixed. I was NOT losing any fluid anyware either. Disapearing fluid
So...I went to the back checked the master and it was dry as well. But being I was not getting any fluid anyware it must have been the master sucking air in the line but not leaking....at least not enough to come out of the boot. SO...I replaced the Master, took of the old one and BINGO.....fixed. The master was sucking in air but not leaking enough to show it was bad. Their was some old gumed up fluid in the boot that showed me it was leaking some into the boot but not enough to see when installed. So my choice for you.....get a new master, yours could be sucking in air and not leaking. Mine was.
Hope this helped.

------------------
1988 formula 2.8 5-speed Silver
Perfect interior, fully restored
62,000 mi.

Wow, do I feel honored... Dr DodgeRunner, James, Craig, AND the Ogre himself. I am in reverence... talk about heavy hitters!!

I hope this post doesn't go too long... here we go!

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Debris from the cleaning of the bleeder hole is trapped against the piston seal, allowing air to be sucked in under certain circumstances. If it's working and you park your car in a steep drive with the nose down, does the problem appear? What about nose-up? JazzMan

James,
I have not noticed any change that is dependent on degree of tilt. "Time" seems to be the only factor that affects my "disappearing" clutch.

I will be putting the rear-end up this evening (ramps high enough?) to test this theory. One question, should I try this for a short period of time first? (I.E. Once the clutch is working, lift the nose and leave it sitting for about 10 minutes then test. Then do the same for the rear?) Most often I park on "level" ground.

quote Originally posted by theogre: By hand... push/pull the clutch arm on the trans away from the slave cyl.

I know this might seem dumb, but to the left (drivers) side? Such as bleeding the slave?

quote It sounds like there is to much return travel in the system. If the arm is lifting the throwout too far off the clutch, you'll get just this sort of thing because you have to keep pumping the slack out before the bearing makes contact again. Check the cap on the MC tank... There should be a vent hole/passage in it someplace. (I'm not familiar with that specific cap.) Some have an obvious hole and others have a passage that opens a gap past the rubber gasket. The Brake MC cover is an example of the latter... If that vent is blocked, it can cause pressure and/or vacuum in the MC. Vacuum acts like you've got an extra return spring, what sucks the fluid and slave back more than it should. DO NOT make a hole in the rubber under the cap! That should not have a hole of any kind. The cap itself has a hole/passage to allow the rubber to move with the fluid level.

As to the MC cap, I just removed the rubber seal inside the cap, stuck a sewing needle in the hole in the top of the plastic cap, and then replaced the rubber seal. The cap was dry under the rubber seal. Me being a bone-head, I just shot air into the hole and the rubber seal just learned about air travel. Cleaned it up and put it all back where it belongs. (BTW, the MC cap is the same as the one on my 84. I just removed and examined both caps.)

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: from my experience, i would say the slave.

This was my thought too. Then again, you have to admit it sounds like a master issue, doesn't it?

quote Originally posted by Highjumper: -<snip>- But being I was not getting any fluid anyware it must have been the master sucking air in the line but not leaking....at least not enough to come out of the boot. SO...I replaced the Master, took of the old one and BINGO.....fixed. The master was sucking in air but not leaking enough to show it was bad. -<snip>-

Two questions:
First, it was not leaking, but it was pulling air? Someone is going to have to check this for me, but I think it is a closed / pressurized system. If something goes in, something goes out, right? (air in, fluid out?)

Second, does your carpet have residue from brake fluid? When the master went on Twin2 (the second black 88) I had no leakage, but a slight fluid loss (almost didn't notice because I was bleeding it every 3-4 days just to drive). I seem to have lost it onto my carpet under the clutch arm. I never noticed the fluid until about the beginning of 2001.I asked here and someone told me the master went bad. They were right, but the master had gone bad a number of years BEFORE I noticed the fluid!!! LOL

I am leaning toward the master, but Craigg thinks the slave, and The Orge and James have brought up some VERY interesting points... I am going to go with James and The Orge for the moment, because I love testing and diagnosing things.

Thank you all, let me do some testing, and I will get back to you soon (maybe early Friday afternoon if my students are good and I have no detentions! Crossing my fingers!)

Myke

EDIT: Change appearance to make important words stand out

[This message has been edited by Myke (edited 06-12-2008).]

If you like to play you can always try the o-ring on the slave with the seal that is there. (if it is the one that the o-ring will work with) Be interesting to see if that helps it..

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/076049.html
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/089870.htmlh

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 06-12-2008).]

DodgeDunner,

Going to call you Doctor from now on.

I think I will try that, but I have to update.. Just got word from the kids in the auto shop class....

One of the kids came busting into my class and (very excited child) blurted out, "We finally got it to lose fluid!!!" (I don't know if this is good or bad)
He said they can't see it leaking, but after pumping the clutch for an hour, it lost about 1/4 of an ounce of fluid. They have no idea where the fluid went to.
I told he to check the carpet and the boot on the slave. I have not hear back in the past hour or so.

Does this help?

Myke

I did have fluid just a little on the carpet. The slave was bad. This did not fix my problem. Still getting air in the line after 1 or 2 drives and getting the disappearing clutch.
I am telling you....I checked the Master, it looked good. I replaced it anyway. When I took the old one off it had a little gummed up fluid in the boot. It was Sucking AIR in but not leaking bad enough to show any loss on the Master or at the fluid level.
I would agree if it was sucking air you would think fluid would be everywhere. But that was just not the case in my situation.
Master fixed it.

------------------
1988 formula 2.8 5-speed Silver
Perfect interior, fully restored
62,000 mi.

Sorry, I am a bit confused. I think I have been misreading your post. Slave is in the rear Master in front. Master fails can cause fluid on carpet. So you mean the carpet got a bit of fluid, and you replaced the master. This fixed the problem? (sometimes I confuse the meaning in peoples post. I apologize)

Myke

PS. The A-shop teacher just came up to talk to me. Said they checked everything I suggested, but they can not find fluid. He said he would blame it on the slave or the master! LOL Got to love it! Back to square one... except I can now look for missing fluid.

Other than the slave boot and the carpet, what areas are suspect for migrating fluid?

PPS Now they can't get the clutch to work.....I gave him the Archie link and a gravity bleed link. Told him to do the Archie bleed first.

EDIT: PPPS They just broke the freakin' bleeder screw. I hope to GOD they can get that out with heli or something... GRRRRR

Now I need to know if the bleeder screw is a generic style that can be bought at the parts store. Anyone know off hand? (stuck at the school if not. Anyone want to come give me a ride home? LOL)

[This message has been edited by Myke (edited 06-13-2008).]

bump

Is the "o-ring on the seal" idea also good for losing fluid? I know it was listed for taking in air, but is this going to help with losing fluid?

What does it hurt to try the O-ring. Might fix your problem for a while and not cost much.

The thing to watch is putting the piston back into the bore. The seal likes to catch in the snap ring groove and if your not carefull you mess up the seal lip.
When I put mine in I happen to have some small flat gift ribbon I used to warp around the seal to compress the seal lip.
Then slid it into the cyl. far enough to get the seal lip past the groove and pulled the ribbon out.
Dental floss might also work.
Would be interesting to hear how others might have done it.

So.. Looks like this o-ring trick works for slaves taking in air and losing fluid. I have ordered the new slave, just in case.

Figured I would update everyone, and let you know the results of the o-ring in the slave. When (if) this fails, I will update just to let everyone know the longevity of the slave "upgrade"

Thank you for all the help. This is going to be one of my "sticky" posts in case someone needs this information.

Now time to fix the "lack 'o' power"!!

Myke

UPDATE:

So far I have replaced the Master and the Slave. I bleed the system out, and have full throw on the slave (about an inch). With the clutch to the floor, I can not manually move the slave (even if I use a fulcrum to force it). My clutch does not typically want to disengage. By this I mean the clutch will work perfectly sometimes, but most often will become VERY notchy and difficult to get into gear. The slave boot is clean (new slave), the floor is clean and dry and I do not lose any fluid (new master). There is nothing leaking from any of the clutch lines, nor have I picked up any air in the lines. In other words, the hydraulic parts seem to be in perfect working order.

SO... I have two manuals here, a Chiltons and a Haynes. Haynes says the tranny fluid should be EITHER Dextron 2 ATF, or 5W30. The Chiltons says the Fiero ONLY uses 5W30. I don't think my tranny has ever been opened, and it looks a little red in here...

What fluid SHOULD be in the tranny (5sp)?

I was just about to throw this bad boy in the air and yank the clutch. I think something in the clutch is screwing up and causing it not to release, but I can't help but wonder what fluid SHOULD be in the tranny.

I have tools in hand, and car is strapped and ready to be raised.... Let me know what thoughts pop out at you. (and to those that have talked with me in the past 8 years, no I am NOT going to kill myself!!! Cut, more than likely, but not kill)

EDIT: BTW, the o-ring in the slave worked PERFECTLY. I replaced the slave because the bore looked like it was "rusted" or have "burnt" fluid on the lower part of the slave. The slave worked perfectly with the o-ring, I recommend this fix for anyone who is having minor slave issues. (I kept the old slave for "extra" parts)

------------------
Myke

PAST: 88 L4 5spd, 84 L4 auto, 88 L4 5spd, 87 L4 auto, 84 L4 4spd

Present: 88 L4 5spd

Future: Tomorrow will tell...

[This message has been edited by Myke (edited 08-01-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Myke: EDIT: BTW, the o-ring in the slave worked PERFECTLY. I replaced the slave because the bore looked like it was "rusted" or have "burnt" fluid on the lower part of the slave. The slave worked perfectly with the o-ring, I recommend this fix for anyone who is having minor slave issues. (I kept the old slave for "extra" parts)

I'm glad my O-Ring fix worked for you.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
^^^^ Now in the Construction Zone^^^^
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

quote Originally posted by Myke: What fluid SHOULD be in the tranny (5sp)?

Synchromesh transmission oil. There was an update from GM that specified this. Amsoil makes a synthetic synchromesh that will make shifts real smooth.

And get a speed bleeder for you slave. You can get one that will fit here.

I'm just wondering what type of bell crank you have on the clutch fork shaft. I read some where that there was a "stamped" steel one that would flex and not fully engage the throw out bearing? Just thorwing things out here. Also wondering if your clutch fork shaft bushings are "shot" creating a bind on the shaft? Maybe by "pumping" the clutch, it forces the shaft past the "bind". I would think that it would bind on the return trip thus causing the clutch to slip? Or, it only binds when putting pressure on the throw out bearing to disengage the clutch. When it relaeases for engagement, there is no bind?

I use Pensoil Synchromesh in my Fiero.

Pat

the 88 should have the new style arm on the clutch fork, it is a heavy cast piece. not to say it couldn't also crack, but highly unlikely.
the older style one looks like a folded over 1/8" thick metal piece, and is prone to cracking and slipping on the fork arm.
you can see the new style cast piece partly in this pick upper right corner:

Sardonyx, yes I used your o-ring trick. It is an awesome fix. (could you link it up here for anyone that has not seen it yet? TJM, nice to see you are still here (I love friendly faces).

Fork is cast, no cracks. The clutch is bled, and bled correctly. I do not need a speed bleeder, but thank you. ;-) (I am by no means a newbie)

So Syncromesh should be in my 5sp? What color is the syncromesh supposed to be?
(No offense, but if the old schoolers I know want to chime in here? Jaz, fetish, dodgerunner, buddy craigg, oreif, the ogre....This Fiero is my only car at the moment as I just drove 1800 miles to my new home. 2 days from NH to OK in a Fiero. I have not bought a new car yet.)

Let us assume the hydraulic system is in perfect working order... Other than the hydraulics and fork, what else can cause the grinding and or notchy shifting (reverse grinds every time, 3rd grinds often, first and second VERY notchy up and down shift but no grind, 4th and 5th slightly notchy every 5-8 shifts, but no grind... did that make sense?)? What, within the transaxle can cause this type of issue. I was thinking of the t/o bearing.... other suggestions?

I really want to know what I should be looking for. I was informed by my roommate that I need to hold off for a few more days before I start tearing the car apart.

If you shift by speed matching the car speed to engine speed. IE shift as close to the speed you could shift without using the clutch as you can.
Do you still get the notchy feeling. If you can shift well speed matching but not at faster speed mismatches it could be the syncros are shot.
If you have not I'd sure try the synchromesh and see what affect it has.

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: If you shift by speed matching the car speed to engine speed. IE shift as close to the speed you could shift without using the clutch as you can. Do you still get the notchy feeling. If you can shift well speed matching but not at faster speed mismatches it could be the syncros are shot. If you have not I'd sure try the synchromesh and see what affect it has.

Engine speed seems to have a LITTLE effect on shifting. That is another demon I should track down. I am going to have to do some more test driving. TY DR.

No one mention the clutch pedal itself. These were made of Aluminum and do have a tendency to bend. The quick check for the pedal is to look at the pedal it should be about an inch further away from the floor than the brake pedal. If it isn't then it may be bent which would not provide enough movement of the slave to disengage the clutch.

If it is not bent then you should consider getting an adjustable Banjo from Rodney Dickman. This allows you to adjust were the clutch disengages. You can move the point further from the floor which will allow easier shifting. Rodney is in the vendor list al the top of the page.

The adj. banjo does work. I went through everything you did on my 85 SE and it was the banjo that finally fixed the problem

Joe Sokol

------------------
85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC build underway
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

quote Originally posted by Fieroking: No one mention the clutch pedal itself. These were made of Aluminum and do have a tendency to bend.

Please notice I have an '88. No one missed this, we skipped the parts that were N/A with the '88. But with an older Fiero, this would be a good idea!

quote If it is not bent then you should consider getting an adjustable Banjo from Rodney Dickman. This allows you to adjust were the clutch disengages. You can move the point further from the floor which will allow easier shifting. Rodney is in the vendor list al the top of the page.

I have the proper throw on the slave. If I adjust the banjo out any further, might cause further damage?

BTW, Rodney has supplied me with wonderful parts for the Fieros in my sig over the past 9-10 years.

Edit: to add sig lol
------------------
Myke

PAST: 88 L4 5spd, 84 L4 auto, 88 L4 5spd, 87 L4 auto, 84 L4 4spd

Present: 88 L4 5spd

Future: Tomorrow will tell...

EDIT2: this is the same issue on the same exact set-up (L4 5sp). I noticed my old friends in here. I am going to comment it to see what it ended up being. I hope there is a response from the author as to what he found. I can fix just about anything, but some jobs I don't want to do if I don't have to.

Link: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/089221.html

[This message has been edited by Myke (edited 08-02-2009).]

Awesome!

quote Originally posted by CC Rider: ended up being the presure plate. some of the springs were gone or broke. did a clutch job and all good.

So if I open it up, it may just be a few broken springs. I can deal with that. While I have the transmission out, I think I might tear it down and check the gears and syncros. Who knows what OTHER damage I caused over the last.... 14 months while driving like this... Bad Myke!

quote Originally posted by Fieroking: No one mention the clutch pedal itself. These were made of Aluminum and do have a tendency to bend.

quote Originally posted by Myke: Please notice I have an '88. No one missed this, we skipped the parts that were N/A with the '88. But with an older Fiero, this would be a good idea!

The aluminum part of the pedal does not even matter. I have never seen the aluminum part bend. The part that bends is the steel part of the pedal, the "U". Even the steel pedals bend as this is NOT the part that bends. and yes I have replaced about 20 bent pedals, some steel some aluminum. On various Fieros.

So don't just assume that your car is "better" just being an '88.

BTW reverse grinds, it has no syncro for it, third syncro is usally the first to go also, so that would explain those two gears.

and the "archie" method of bleeding is really only half way there, can still have air in system after that method.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
^^^^ Now in the Construction Zone^^^^
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: The aluminum part of the pedal does not even matter. I have never seen the aluminum part bend. The part that bends is the steel part of the pedal, the "U". Even the steel pedals bend as this is NOT the part that bends. and yes I have replaced about 20 bent pedals, some steel some aluminum. On various Fieros. So don't just assume that your car is "better" just being an '88. BTW reverse grinds, it has no syncro for it, third syncro is usally the first to go also, so that would explain those two gears. and the "archie" method of bleeding is really only half way there, can still have air in system after that method.

I stand corrected on the pedals. Still, The arm still sits where it should, so I think I can rule that out. From my experience, no year is "better" than any other year, just different quirks. ;-)

The real reason I bumped this post is because I am wondering what method you personally use to bleed the clutch. Once I put this beast together again, I want to bleed out the hydraulics again to ensure proper operation. I have tried raising the rear and bleeding, on flat ground, following Archie's method, speed bleeding...

I seem to have about 1 1/8 (ish) inch movement at the slave, and there is no play in the response from the pedal (same stiffness, movement, no fade, and the slave does not move back when the pedal is held on the floor for long periods).

OH!! and it seems that I don't have an alignment tool for the clutch. Home made remedies anyone? (boy, did I ever make a boo boo!)

Since you have a 4-cylinder 5-speed, you can do all of these mods.
Just a thought -- how long is the push rod on your slave?

quote Originally posted by TopNotch: Since you have a 4-cylinder 5-speed, you can do all of these mods. Just a thought -- how long is the push rod on your slave?

LOVE the mods. Will try some of these with the rebuild of the stock (original) slave.

RE length of push rod, everything is identical to length, bore, etc of the original. If you are wondering, yes I did take apart a brand new part. In the past, replacement parts have not always been an exact match. Sometimes, when I purchase "new" parts for my cars, they may have slight variations from the original. If I want an exact match (IE no upgrades or alterations) taking the "new" part apart is the best way to know what I bought and if it is what I want. (did that make sense?) The old parts and "new" parts are identical.

My fear is the bleeding of the clutch. It seems this is the part I mess up every time (without fail).

TY for the info (and the link)
Myke

Alright, so I either measured incorrectly before or something changed with my car. I am not getting 1 & 1/8 inch throw, more like 13/16ths of an inch at best.

I put the Fiero aside for a few months to deal with some other pressing issues. Today I decided it was time to get back to the Fiero. A FIRM believer of the "measure twice, cut once" school, I decided to start at the beginning with my clutch issues. Here is where I am at:

Can not find leaking fluid.
Not losing fluid.
Pumping the clutch does nothing (like normal. A good sign).
I am ONLY getting just under 1 inch of travel. Maybe as little as 3/4 of an inch (bad sign?)
Bleeding the clutch changes nothing.
The clutch does not have a bent arm.
There are no cracks on the lever that connects the slave to the transmission case.
The slave reacts to the slightest pressure to the pedal.

So, I have an after market master and slave and a clutch that does not go into any gear. Should I continue by tearing the engine/trany out of the car and digging out the clutch, or am I missing something? (This is me, NOT wanting to remove the engine lol)

Welcome back Kotter!...

So are you in NH or OK now?

Anyway backing up again you said after market master and slave. Did you happen to check the bore size of the slave if this is the one you put the O ring in?

There is a 13/16 and a 15/16 bore cyl. depending on the transmission. Wonder if you have a 15 and should have a 13...

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: Welcome back Kotter!... So are you in NH or OK now? Anyway backing up again you said after market master and slave. Did you happen to check the bore size of the slave if this is the one you put the O ring in? There is a 13/16 and a 15/16 bore cyl. depending on the transmission. Wonder if you have a 15 and should have a 13...

Thank you, and I am in Oklahoma. I like the weather. I did not measure the bore on the after market slave. When ordering the part, they asked for year, make, model, and engine size. Then after the part came up the guy said "five speed isuzu? I thought I put Pontiac in." I didnt know the computers actually listed this tranny as an isuzu. I have the package in the garage. let me pull some numbers and find some specs. (sorry no paragraphs, writing from my phone)

Lots has been covered in this epic tale spanning a couple of years , but two more things I might add (if they haven't been mentioned previously)...

Have you tried pressure bleeding (or even gravity bleeding) the clutch with the slave piston pushed all the way into the bore during the process? It's been widely reported (and I've done it as well) that this helps to get rid of air trapped in the slave.

I know you have a new slave, but you still might want to consider the MR2 slave rebuild kit modification. Those two seals make a world of difference. Remember, it's not just fluid leaking out that's a problem. It's air leaking in (at the slave) that causes so much grief!

quote Originally posted by Patrick: <snip> Have you tried pressure bleeding (or even gravity bleeding) the clutch with the slave piston pushed all the way into the bore during the process? <snip>

Yes

quote I know you have a new slave, but you still might want to consider the MR2 slave rebuild kit modification. Those two seals make a world of difference. Remember, it's not just fluid leaking out that's a problem. It's air leaking in (at the slave) that causes so much grief!

True, but if air was getting in, my fluid level would change. If fluid was leaking out, my fluid level would change. I think I will skip the MR2 parts in my new slave; I want to keep the LT warranty on the part. (I use it often with all the parts I have bought. )

Wow this has been going on for a long time! I read most of the thread and was thinking the same thing as Dodgerunner. I wonder if the parts store sold you the wrong slave cylinder? Checking the part number on the box or receipt won't help, I've gotten the wrong part but in the right box a few times myself. I see where you mention the slave travel is less than an inch when you should have more than an inch of travel. I would unbolt the slave and measure the bore diameter, see what yours actually is. This thread has photos of the differences of the slave cylinders, you should be able to see if they sold you the correct one without even removing it:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/096740.html

Mike

quote Originally posted by Myke: True, but if air was getting in, my fluid level would change.

You'd think so, but it doesn't take the introduction of very much air at all to limit slave travel.

Bits and pieces... bits and pieces. Alright, so here is where I am now.

First, the bore on the slave is correct. (I measured it with a micrometer.)
Second, the master shows no signs of leaking (and it is new)
Third, the slave shows no signs of leaking (and it is new)
Fourth, I have no chance in fluid level.

Banjo was upside-down, flipped it over, no change.

This is the correct way for it to sit, right?

While I was under there, I noticed this under the fuse box:

What the heck are these?

Bleed... and bleed.... bleed... about 1qt bled and there are no air bubbles.
Had an assistant put the clutch to the floor and measured the return on the slave.


About 3/4 and inch travel. (from 2 inch mark down to 1&1/4 inch with the pedal on the floor)

Then I got to thinking..... Maybe the return is the issue. What if the piston is not coming back far enough? Could that cause the issues I am having? So I measured the distance from where the slave mounts to where the piston rests (feel free to correct me with the technical terms here.)

and it was 3 & 3/8 inches

Another thing I have noticed is that I can force the slave piston in (with some effort) when the system is closed. Does this mean I am forcing fluid back into the Master? (slave is not leaking. dry boot.)
Does any of this make sense? I know the 3/4 inch throw makes no sense, but what about the static state distance from the mount to the arm?

Well have never seen a static measurement so can't offer anything there.
The 3/4" throw is not enough.
Yes is you push the rod and piston further into the cyl. you are pushing fluid back to the master. The fact that you can do that means your cyl. is not bottoming out when retracted. (rod not to long etc.)
Guess one other check to make is pull the slave boot and have your helper floor the clutch and make sure the piston is not hitting the outer limit also.
What master do you have the 1st gen or 2nd?
Another idea, have you helper slowly push the clutch down and call out the distance around an inch or so at a time and see when the slave starts to move. The idea is to see how much mechanical play there is in the master linkage as well as how much the master piston has to move until the slave starts to move.
In the case of the 1st gen master the piston has to move a bit before it blocks the fill port so the fluid starts to move towward the slave.
Maybe you have a new master but it is not rebuilt correctly and the piston has to move to much before the fluid moves.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 01-27-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: Well have never seen a static measurement so can't offer anything there. The 3/4" throw is not enough. Yes is you push the rod and piston further into the cyl. you are pushing fluid back to the master. The fact that you can do that means your cyl. is not bottoming out when retracted. (rod not to long etc.) Guess one other check to make is pull the slave boot and have your helper floor the clutch and make sure the piston is not hitting the outer limit also. What master do you have the 1st gen or 2nd? Another idea, have you helper slowly push the clutch down and call out the distance around an inch or so at a time and see when the slave starts to move. The idea is to see how much mechanical play there is in the master linkage as well as how much the master piston has to move until the slave starts to move. In the case of the 1st gen master the piston has to move a bit before it blocks the fill port so the fluid starts to move towward the slave. Maybe you have a new master but it is not rebuilt correctly and the piston has to move to much before the fluid moves.

When I pulled the boot at static to look for fluid and to measure the bore, there was quite a bit of distance from the piston. I will have someone push the clutch with the boot off in the morning to check how far it extends within the slave cylinder.

The Master is a gen 2.

I put a mirror in the rear window so I could see movement on the slave (actually it was so I could see if bubbles were coming out of the slave), and just resting my foot on the clutch causes the slave to react. As soon as I press the pedal, the slave moves. I just pushing the pedal an inch moves the slave and the slave moves through the full motion of the pedal while I am pushing it to the floor. (The clutch is about the same hight as the brake. Maybe a little higher than the brake.) In other words, the slave responds to every movement of the pedal no matter how small.

As this is a Fiero, there are two possible solutions; This is going to be an easy fix, or this is going to be a seriously HUGE job to complete. I am ready for either at this point in time.

Edit: What are those two wires in the 2nd or 3rd pic?

[This message has been edited by Myke (edited 01-28-2010).]