Tha master can leak internally and never spill a drop of fluid. Everything will seem normal but you will not get the full travel. The aftermarket ones seem to be more proned to the problem. Have you been able to actually watch the fluid level while pressing the clutch (with a helper of course )? Sometimes this can give a clue as to what is going on internally.

Does your pedal hit the floor when you press it? If it does try pulling up on the pedal. They can be bent that way also in a pinch and will give slightly more travel. Worked for me til my replacement pedal came. I also had ~3/4" travel, new master, new slave, and my pedal didn't look bent.

Just a couple of ideas. Best of luck!

Due to the model your of your car I'd guess the wires are the backup light switch. Do they go into the transmission? If so that is what they are.

The clutch pedal sits at about the same hight as the brake.
There is no bend on the "U" bracket on the pedal arm.
The pedal can not be pulled any further forward.

The odd thing is that the return on the pedal is stopped by the banjo, NOT the brace. Is this normal? If I disconnect the banjo, the pedal comes back from the fire wall about another 2-3 inches (and moves the clutch closer to the driver than the brake by 2-3 inches).

I thought the clutch and brake were supposed to be about the same distance from the fire wall? Why would the banjo stop the return travel and not the bracket?
Hey, if taking a torch to the pedal to make it bend closer to me is the solution, I am heading out to get some propane. I just thought the brake and clutch were supposed to be the same distance from the fire wall.

Your pedal is bent, no doubt in my mind. Remove it and straighten, then reinstall. If it continues to be a problem replace it. Metal fatigue tends to set in after they've been bent and straightened a few times. A vise works way better then a torch.

Your pedal should rest ~1" higher then the brake pedal. Travel should not be limited by the master banjo at all. It should rest on the stop. This is a really good indication that is is bent. Its extremely hard to see a bent pedal in the car (practically impossible). Once it is out though you can't miss it. If the banjo is holding the pedal then its also not pushing the master piston enough to move the amout of fluid needed.

I've fixed many pedals over the years but only had to actually replace one. The good news is this won't cost you a dime. It also doesn't take very long. Good luck.

Awesome. Going to pull the pedal and try this:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/105877.html

Once I get this pedal out I am going to take some pics. I am also going to measure how far the bracket needs to be moved for the pedal to hit the stop under the dash.

Only one other question before I start:

How much closer to the driver (eyeballed distance) should the clutch be as when compared with the brake pedal? (IE: "the clutch should sit about 1.75 inches closer to the driver than the brake pedal") I only ask because with MY LUCK, I will screw this up and cause the clutch itself to bind and snap...
Then I will be cleaning up transmission parts after it explodes...
Then some how this will cause the air to dissipate from my tires.... Which leads to.....

Myke

EDIT: BTW, thank you for all the pics, Patrick, on the other link. VERY helpful. I will add my pics here if they are relative.

[This message has been edited by Myke (edited 01-30-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Myke: BTW, thank you for all the pics, Patrick, on the other link. VERY helpful.

Myke, you're very welcome!

Bump

Can someone take a ruler or measuring tape to their car and eyeball how much higher the clutch pedal sits than the brake?

TIA
Myke (With pedal in hand, bruise on face, and kids laughing in the background.... and no a face pic will NOT be relevant if I post pictures!)

On the '84 I'm currently working on, the clutch pedal sits about half an inch higher than the brake pedal.

I believe I've read where some clutch pedals (probably ones that have absolutely NO bend in them, or maybe used with an adjustable banjo) are a full inch higher than the brake pedal.

Myke, why not disconnect the banjo from your clutch pedal and see how much higher the clutch pedal will then go? If it goes up a lot, that's "travel" that you're missing at the slave end.

[EDIT] I somehow missed reading a couple of the posts on this page. After reading them I'm convinced your clutch pedal is bent badly.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-01-2010).]

Should be right around 1 inch closer to the driver then the brake pedal. That should be the goal if possible.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Should be right around 1 inch closer to the driver then the brake pedal. That should be the goal if possible.

Cool. I think I am going to end up around 2-3 inches if I pull this to the stop. 2-3 inches sounds like way too much, that is why I asked. Thank you.

Myke

Yeah. 1" is where you want it. Bent too much in either direction has about the same effect. The master and slave have a 1 to 1 ratio so if either do not have full travel... well, you get the idea. There is another side effect to a bent pedal also. It puts the master banjo out of allignment and can cause binding there with a pedal thats bent enough. I've seen a couple 90 degree bent banjos from this also over the years.

Easiest way to fix is to just pull the pedal out and straighten it. New ones are less then 20 shipped from the fierostore also.

The "U" bracket part should be in line with the part of the pedal its riveted to. Once you get it out you will see the problem immediately and know how to fix it. A good vise and elbow grease works best for the fix, maybe a prybar also. From what I've seen 95% of the time the pedal gets bent while working on other clutch release issues. Usually from a pedal press while the slave rod is out or mechanical binding somewhere in the system. I've never had a pedal bend from normal use.

Here is a great write up on how to remove the pedal and comparison of new and bent...
http://www.v8archie.com/arch6.htm
Not only can it bend like that it can also "twist" the "U" bracket which is even harder to see in the car.

Alright, the pedal is fine.
My handy dandy measuring tool

shows the distance is equal from top to bottom of the U bracket.


And these are more "clear" pictures with a few different angles. (without the "tool") This one from the front

This is the view with the bracket in line with the pedal arm. Notice there is a clear view through the hole at the top of the pedal arm. This is as close to "lined up" as I could get the photo. As you can see the bracket lines up.

and this is thee full pedal


So if this pedal is not bent (as evidence by the photos) then why does it sit at the same hight as the brake?
Why does it stop it's return because of the banjo and not the stop bracket?
Could it be that the banjo is too short somehow?
I measured the length of the banjo, but is was a rough measurement. I doubt I was 3/4 inch off. I will go remeasure and edit this post to add the length of the banjo.

If it's a 1-1 ratio from the master to the slave then I need to put this back together and measure the travel of the master.

Edits to follow. Length of the banjo and travel of the master as measured by the banjo length depressed.

Edit 1: Oh, and I am going to find a way to pin the banjo to the clutch OUTSIDE the eye loop and test it once or twice to see if the extra 3/4 inch travel gives me the 3/4 inch travel I am missing at the slave. IF it does give me the 3/4inch, then I know the master and slave are giving me a 1:1 ratio. That will leave two possibilities
1: Banjo too short
2: Clutch arm not traveling far enough. <-----this one I have no clue how I would fix. Hope my measuring shows something off.

[This message has been edited by Myke (edited 02-01-2010).]

If you are getting 1" of travel at the slave you are very close. Should be approx 1.2" with an isuzu or 4speed slave (3/4" getrag). A couple things could make up that small difference.

Are the clutch pedal bushings in place and decent condition?
Does your banjo have or need the snap in plastic bushing to take out the slack? Mine did.
Double check the snap ring that holds the banjo in the master bore. Is it seated in the groove? Just want to be sure its not stuck in the bore.

I still have a concern about the banjo holding the pedal from reaching the stop. I've never seen that happen without the pedal being bent. I have to run. I'll check back in later.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 02-01-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: If you are getting 1" of travel at the slave you are very close. Should be approx 1.2" with an isuzu or 4speed slave (3/4" getrag). A couple things could make up that small difference. Are the clutch pedal bushings in place and decent condition? Does your banjo have or need the snap in plastic bushing to take out the slack? Mine did. Double check the snap ring that holds the banjo in the master bore. Is it seated in the groove? Just want to be sure its not stuck in the bore. I still have a concern about the banjo holding the pedal from reaching the stop. I've never seen that happen with the pedal being bent. I have to run. I'll check back in later.

I can only get 1" if the clutch goes from the stop on the bracket to the floor (with a home made adapter that includes vice grips and duct tape). If I connect the banjo to the clutch pedal, I am getting about 3/4"

I have the insert on the banjo, but it is still a little loose. Total play = 1/16 - 1/8 inch.

Clutch bushings? where the pedal attaches on the rod? I would say they are in okay condition. They have a little play.

I will check the snap ring when I get back. I know it WAS seated when I installed it.

I was going to suggest that from the picture you post early on it looked like there was some play in the plastic bushing on the peddle where the banjo does.

I just re-read this entire thread to be sure I have all the facts straight. You've done alot and your fiero has not been very nice to you lately! (shaking angry fist) ...

New master
New slave
Bled fully
Pedal doesn't look bent. Yet from the stop floor you can't get enough travel with an adapter.

Can you get the travel by pushing the banjo without the pedal? This should be definitive on weather the pedal is good.

I pulled out my bent pedal and took another look at it. It looks just like yours. Looking at it I can't see a thing wrong. Sure doesn't look bent sitting here next to the computer. But I know without a doubt that it doesn't work right. I remember seeing a big difference from it and the new one.

It all comes down to the one problem that bothers me most about your situation. The banjo should not hold up the pedal. Other then a bent pedal there just isn't much that can cause that. Maybe a short banjo? Binding near the end of the master bore? If your adapter didn't work neither would an adjustable banjo. It all sounds like symptoms of a bent pedal or air in the lines.

EDIT: I went out measured my master banjo just now. Came to 5 5/8 from the boot to end. Oddly enough the exact same length of my isuzu/4 speed slave rod sitting on the bench. Is yours the same? My banjo also has some travel left and the pedal is resting on the stop. Something doesn't add up.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 02-02-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: [EDIT] I somehow missed reading a couple of the posts on this page. After reading them I'm convinced your clutch pedal is bent badly.

After seeing your images, I'm now convinced that your clutch pedal isn't bent at all.

quote Originally posted by Myke: If I disconnect the banjo, the pedal comes back from the fire wall about another 2-3 inches (and moves the clutch closer to the driver than the brake by 2-3 inches).

Are you saying that with the banjo disconnected, the clutch pedal sits 2-3 inches above the brake pedal? Seems very strange to me.

If I do have a bend in this pedal, I am 99% sure it is the actual arm, not the u bracket.

I will measure the banjo tomorrow. As the static position is at full release of the master (IE. banjo as far out of the master as is can be.) I should have a number that is about the same as yours. I remember the length of the new banjo and the length of old (stock) banjo was identical.

I am really close to just heating up the arm and bending it to see if it works. The only reason I have not is because IF the problem is NOT the pedal arm, and I bend it, I have to buy a new one. I might just buy a new one and play with the one I have here.

Just curious if anyone has tried duplicating my measuring of the throw on the master vs the throw on the slave. I am curious as to what numbers a "perfect" (ahem) system has for throw.

MC max throw (measured by distance of banjo movement) aprox. 2"
Slave throw max aprox 1"

I am at a loss until I know what I should expect from the MC to slave ratio. 1:1 would be nice, but I am getting exactly half every way I slice it.

Myke

I keep looking at the picture of the full pedal and arm and there is one thing I keep seeing. Keep in mind this was taken at almost exactly 90 deg. to the side. I have marked it up for this explanation:

I made a line to show where the arm would go if it was perfectly straight.
Off to the left side, there is a large arrow pointing to specific point on the arm. That is where the "twist" begins for the arm to fit along side the wheel well. You will also notice that is where the arm bends back (towards the firewall if installed)
If you look to the right side, there is a small arrow pointing to a bend in the arm. Notice the distance..... the gap from my "straight" line (the one I drew) and the bend.

Both the twist and the bend are GM stock bends/twists (as we all know), but what about the bend by the large red arrow? Is it supposed to bend back away from the driver? I can't help but wonder if this is a mistake, or damage, or the natural curve of the arm.... Take another look at the picture and chime in.

Myke

[This message has been edited by Myke (edited 02-02-2010).]

Did you reuse your banjo rod with the new master? Could it be a different length. IE not long enough? Just a thought.

Alright, according to Archie, I have an issue....
B) The bore size of the Master Cylinder and the Slave Cylinder is the same size.
C) Through one full stroke of the clutch pedal the piston in the Master Cylinder moves 1.20" Maximum.
D) Because of C) the maximum travel of the piston in the bore of the slave cylinder is 1.20"
Scroll to the bottom of this page to read for yourself. http://www.v8archie.com/arch7.htm

So now I am back at the "What can cause the clutch master to move 2x the distance of the slave?"

The banjo on the new MC is identical to the banjo on the stock banjo by length from rubber boot to banjo tip.

I am going to go bleed out the clutch some more and pray for some hidden bubbles in the system. If anyone has any suggestion, ideas, things to look for, better ways to bleed.... (right now I am using a bleeder bottle and jacking up the rear drivers side high enough to get the rear tire barely off the ground and doing a one man "nice and easy" clutch pedal pump with the bleeder SLIGHTLY open and finishing with a slave compression.)

Some one has to see something I am missing..... Why am I getting a 2:1 ration from MC to slave? Does Archies 1:1 suggestions go for BOTH clutch systems (Getrag is diff than muncie and isuzu, right)?

Feeling lost,
Myke

quote Originally posted by Myke: Some one has to see something I am missing..... Why am I getting a 2:1 ration from MC to slave? Does Archies 1:1 suggestions go for BOTH clutch systems (Getrag is diff than muncie and isuzu, right)? Feeling lost, Myke

The getrag is not quite a 1:1 ratio. The getrag slave has a larger bore then the 4speed/isuzu so that it only travels 3/4" when everything is working perfectly. I use the smaller bore 4 speed slave with getrag rod on my getrag. Bleeding is a bit easier and the clutch engages at about the mid point instead of at the floor. The downside is quicker engagement which makes it more difficult to slip the clutch. Once you get used to it, its great.

As for your issue, I'm running out of ideas also. As long as the slave, master, and pedal are all correct it should work. I'm still betting on the pedal. Its the only thing you haven't replaced and is the only thing I've ever seen that causes the master banjo to hold the pedal. I hope you get this working very soon. You need a drive in your fiero as a reward for all you've gone through. Keep working at it!

EDIT: I think you should try bending you pedal slightly. Twist the "U" bracket slightly towards the front of the car. It will give you more travel at the master and the slave. Worth a try and wont change anything if it doesn't work.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 02-08-2010).]

Oy, replaced the pedal, replaced the MC again, took apart and rebuilt the slave, pressurized the hydraulic line to test for leaks, and it seems everything is "perfect." So I put fluid in the MC, filled the line, bleed it out and.....

Still have 3/4" travel at the slave. WTH? *head scratching*

What the hell am I doing wrong? This is really getting under my skin....

Maybe it is my process? I will be watching this thread to see if any helpful info pops up... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/106579.html

------------------
Myke

PAST: 88 L4 5spd, 84 L4 auto, 88 L4 5spd, 87 L4 auto, 84 L4 4spd, 86 SE auto,

Present: 88 L4 5spd

EDIT: Smile edit

[This message has been edited by Myke (edited 02-17-2010).]

Is the clutch pedal still being held by the master banjo?

Yes, the banjo still holds the pedal. According to Archie, the master needs to travel 1.20" and I am getting that much travel on the MC. The slave moves 0.75". The internal dimensions of the slave and master match the old (stock) mc and slave internal dimensions.

I am gravity bleeding now and praying as hard as I can.

I am convinced my car is metabolizing the brake fluid.

When I gravity bleed, it seems to have no air bubbles (and it bleeds nicely, btw). But then I try to push the clutch and I only get 3/4" throw on the slave.
I tried Archie's method, and I have air bubbles all day long (and 3/4" throw)
Tried to pressure bleed, only 3/4 inch throw.

MC and Slave have the same interior volume.

Fluid is disappearing. I decided to recycle fluid from the slave back to the MC to see if I was getting 100% return. I am not. I am getting about 90-95% of the fluid coming out of the slave. I have no idea where the other 5-10% is (unless is it just air bubble. But then why do I have air bubbles after refilling the MC 12-14 times?)

The slave is not leaking. (dry as a bone under the rubber cover, but the bleed screw seems to leak around the threads once it is open.)
Gen 2 MC is not leaking (pulled the rubber cover off; dry. Seal around the overflow and the clutch line are not leaking)

How often does the braided part fail, and HOW does it fail? What about the metal line? The metal line looks dry. Where else can this thing leak?

Sorry if I am all over the map here, I am tired and frazzled. I have been working on the clutch for about14 hours straight. If I never see another 12mm wrench, it will be too soon.

Myke

quote Originally posted by Myke: I am convinced my car is metabolizing the brake fluid. Myke

So am I!

There is a small braided section on the line just under the front also. Check that one also if you haven't already. Here is a good diagram of the whole clutch hydraulic system. It may be of some help.
http://www.fierostore.com/P.../Browse.aspx?d=10000
Its very hard to tell when the braided sections are leaking. The braids tend to soak up some of the fluid. There really are only 3 parts to the system. Master, Slave, and line. I know what its like to be frazled also. I took me 2 weeks to finally get mine working correctly.

What type of fluid are you using?

Came accross an issue with my clutch and thought it might be similar to whats effecting yours.

My issue came in the form of a new clutch disc, actually two. Both of the new discs were thicker then the old ones. At first I thought this was just from the wear. Now I realize its more then that and was actually the cause of my clutch issues. In both cases the added thickness effected the position of the slave piston in its bore and caused it to hit the snap ring at the end of the bore. Both times the piston could no longer travel the full amount to disengage the clutch. The solution is simple. A longer slave rod is needed to compensate and move the starting position of the slave position further into the bore. Try it and see what you come up with.

Pick up a hardened 3/8" bolt the longer then the rod you have. Cut off the head and put in place. It might just fix your issue for very little $$ spent. Good luck!

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 03-17-2010).]