The problem with this in a Fiero is that the two hot spots A) probably won't be right next to each other (transverse layout) B) probably won't be equally distant from each bank's valves due to different routing and different numbers of bends.
Any more info on why this method is supposed to work?
A) May not be important, but would require less shenanigans than the 'snakes'. B) That's OK
Not certain, maybe that's where the pulses tend to stack up, collide, or overlap. In the Ford scenario mentioned earlier I was using the "tri-Y" 1 1/4" primary headers on a 351W, basically stock except for a 'port & pocket'. Was building for pullin' stumps just off idle. Opposite end of the spectrum from the Fiero. Had a nice, deep, sexy burble even keeping the pipes smallish, only went up to 2 1/2" after the mufflers and 3" for the single exhaust at the very END of the line.Velocity and inertia are important for torque. I think that the crossover opened things up at the 'choke point'. It is IMPORTANT to build the system completly end to end BEFORE adding the equalizer pipe! With the camming and piping this engine was "all breathed out" at approximatly the same RPM as the stock 2.8 in the Fiero. On an old Dodge Colt Vista I had in the '80s there was a dead end pipe on the single exhaust that I think was some sort of Helmholtz Resonator sorta scavenging contraption just ahead of the muffler . . . in the back'. When that rotted out I couldn't duplicate the diameter, made due with what I had avail. and it moved the torque band and made the sound deeper, it was about 3/16" larger in Dia., same length, about 3 1/2' long.
Norm
[This message has been edited by gt88norm (edited 11-03-2007).]
why not have true quad? wouldnt if you made the manifolds go to the right cylenders produce a nice clean sound? i dont know im kinda new at this so slap me if im wrong. i kno thats where the M3 gets its neet sound. the new v8 one not the v6.
why not have true quad? wouldnt if you made the manifolds go to the right cylenders produce a nice clean sound? i dont know im kinda new at this so slap me if im wrong. i kno thats where the M3 gets its neet sound. the new v8 one not the v6.
True quad?
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01:52 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25098 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
I think the best thing to do here is determine exactly what people referr to as a "Ferrari" sound. There are numerous kinds of Ferraris, everything from a farm tractor to an F1 car.
I assume the sound you're referring to is the smooth, precision, high-rpm whine?
The V6/60 Fiero already has a pretty decent sound at idle that is very much synonimous (sp?) with the earlier carbureted Ferraris at least at dead-idle.
The best way, in my opinion, to achieve that sound is to built a motor that is capable of producing high rpms. Lets not forget too that all Ferrari V6 motors WERE 60 degree engines, and the Ferrari V12s were also 60 degree motors (~65 degrees actually). That is a key part of what makes the Ferrari sound what it is. It's the layout of the motor, the RPM, and the refinement of getting to that rpm (camshaft design).
The DOHC V6/60 is probably the best way to achieve that sound. But, you can still get something pretty similar to that with the Fiero's 2.8.
Based on what I've learned working on random different cars (I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert though), would be to modify the Fiero 2.8 V6 to rev well into the 7,500 rpm range. This is certainly possible, all that it would require is very close tolerances, and having the rotating assembly professionally balanced with that in mind. You'd probably also want a cam that was reground to build power primarily in the mid-range and upper rpms.
Most of the older Ferraris (early 308s included) have a rather rough idle. This is because before cam phasing, they had to optimize the cams for upper rpms.
Another thing you'd need would be a boost in compression. Something like 9.2 or 9.5:1 would be decent.
The intake would need to be completely replaced, basically... because the stock plenum as we all know simply can't handle upper rpm power.
As for exhaust, I'd say make it as smooth as you possibly could, get a free-flow open chambered muffler like a Warlock or a Monza, and then install a resonator before the muffler (and after the cat).
Interesting, I posted a sound clip of my GT on here a few years ago and almost everyone said it had that Ferrari sound to it. I should try to work up another clip before installing my headers.
I think the best thing to do here is determine exactly what people referr to as a "Ferrari" sound. There are numerous kinds of Ferraris, everything from a farm tractor to an F1 car.
I assume the sound you're referring to is the smooth, precision, high-rpm whine?
The V6/60 Fiero already has a pretty decent sound at idle that is very much synonimous (sp?) with the earlier carbureted Ferraris at least at dead-idle.
The best way, in my opinion, to achieve that sound is to built a motor that is capable of producing high rpms. Lets not forget too that all Ferrari V6 motors WERE 60 degree engines, and the Ferrari V12s were also 60 degree motors (~65 degrees actually). That is a key part of what makes the Ferrari sound what it is. It's the layout of the motor, the RPM, and the refinement of getting to that rpm (camshaft design).
The DOHC V6/60 is probably the best way to achieve that sound. But, you can still get something pretty similar to that with the Fiero's 2.8.
Based on what I've learned working on random different cars (I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert though), would be to modify the Fiero 2.8 V6 to rev well into the 7,500 rpm range. This is certainly possible, all that it would require is very close tolerances, and having the rotating assembly professionally balanced with that in mind. You'd probably also want a cam that was reground to build power primarily in the mid-range and upper rpms.
Most of the older Ferraris (early 308s included) have a rather rough idle. This is because before cam phasing, they had to optimize the cams for upper rpms.
Another thing you'd need would be a boost in compression. Something like 9.2 or 9.5:1 would be decent.
The intake would need to be completely replaced, basically... because the stock plenum as we all know simply can't handle upper rpm power.
As for exhaust, I'd say make it as smooth as you possibly could, get a free-flow open chambered muffler like a Warlock or a Monza, and then install a resonator before the muffler (and after the cat).
I would keep the stock tips
Keeping the pipe dia. only as big as it's needed might cut down (or exagerate) the 'over-modulated' raspy sound, if one's annoyed (or not) by that. maybe even pop for that Westcoast Fiero cat. w/ the adjustable by-pass thingy.That thing probably roars when the flapper valve opens. Replace the gravity weight w/ an relay and solenoid for quiet zones, or just to keep it closed when need be.
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03:26 PM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
I think the best thing to do here is determine exactly what people referr to as a "Ferrari" sound. There are numerous kinds of Ferraris, everything from a farm tractor to an F1 car.
Cool, didn't know that. I thought only Lamborghini started out making tractors. (Then he took Ferraris and modified them with beefier tractor parts )
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The V6/60 Fiero already has a pretty decent sound at idle that is very much synonimous (sp?) with the earlier carbureted Ferraris at least at dead-idle.
From working at the Monterey classic car auction at the Concours d'Elegance. I can agree with that. None of the classic cars really like to idle much. Very rough. (The Lamborghini Miura being an exeption, but that's a V-12)
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The intake would need to be completely replaced, basically... because the stock plenum as we all know simply can't handle upper rpm power.
It would be cool to have a 2 stage setup like modern Lamborghinis. They have a flap in the intake that has a long runner for low rpms, and then the flap switches for short runner for high rpm's.
I would also recommend looking into Borla exhausts. Their mufflers have a higher pitch when punched. Magnflow is much deeper.
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04:16 PM
pavo_roddy Member
Posts: 4351 From: State with a city named Gotham Registered: Apr 2004
I thought it was only the house of lambo's that made tractors too? Anyways, personally if I were to have a choice in the matter, I think that an F355's sound would be the pinnacle of ferrari engines!
------------------ Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in.... Enzo Ferrari....
Today they are called garage's, yesterday, they were stable's! Eric Jacobsen....
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05:11 PM
AJxtcman Member
Posts: 1098 From: Rock Hill SC Registered: Nov 2006
I thought it was only the house of lambo's that made tractors too? Anyways, personally if I were to have a choice in the matter, I think that an F355's sound would be the pinnacle of ferrari engines!
My 355 muffler on my little turd. Hmm 6500 RPM clip
Group : I MUST APOLOGIZE, I was wrong about the headers that I saw in Doug Chase's shop! They were NOT designed to scaveng 180* opposed cylinders as I stated. I found a picture of them, they are equal length and very long primary, could be modified w/ heroic effort though but would have to have flanges added at crucial disassembly points to be able to instal or remove from the car. If it works, below is a link to a page with photos, and a build up of some similar for the '96 DOHC. Again my apologies
Group : I MUST APOLOGIZE, I was wrong about the headers that I saw in Doug Chase's shop! They were NOT designed to scaveng 180* opposed cylinders as I stated. I found a picture of them, they are equal length and very long primary, could be modified w/ heroic effort though but would have to have flanges added at crucial disassembly points to be able to instal or remove from the car. If it works, below is a link to a page with photos, and a build up of some similar for the '96 DOHC. Again my apologies
I made a set of headers with short unequal length 1.5" diameter primarys that collect into dual 2.5" pipes and then merge into a single 3" inlet of a spintech muffler. That sound clip was only revving up to 6500rpm. I just rebuild the motor and am building a set of longer tube headers with 1.75" primarys, I can't wait to hear it at 7500rpm.
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11:47 PM
Erik Member
Posts: 5625 From: Des Moines, Iowa Registered: Jul 2002
I made a set of headers with short unequal length 1.5" diameter primarys that collect into dual 2.5" pipes and then merge into a single 3" inlet of a spintech muffler. That sound clip was only revving up to 6500rpm. I just rebuild the motor and am building a set of longer tube headers with 1.75" primarys, I can't wait to hear it at 7500rpm.
I think it would be sweet to keep the primaries 1.5 keep the tone up but of course equal length if possible ..never the less, I can't wait to hear it at 7500 ..what are you using for ECM and tuning to get the high rev? I am assuming you have heavier duty springs. What about the lifters? Is there any mods to the rods or are they stock? That's what rpm I want my N* to achieve
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11:57 PM
Nov 6th, 2007
Zac88GT Member
Posts: 1026 From: Victoria BC Registered: Nov 2004
I thought about keeping the 1.5" primarys but the exhaust port on the head is quite a bit bigger than the ID of the 1.5" tube. It matches up perfectly to the ID of a 1.75" and i think it will provide a much smoother flow. The engine got a totally stock rebuild except for high compression steel shim headgaskets, valve springs, and retainers from CHRFab. I also ported and polished the heads a little and back cut the intake valves. I'm using ryans 7730 ecm setup. There are some pics of the old headers before i painted them in this link. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...070315-2-076767.html . I'll start a new thread when i start the new headers, but that probably wont be until mid december or january.
Originally posted by Zac88GT: I made a set of headers with short unequal length 1.5" diameter primarys that collect into dual 2.5" pipes and then merge into a single 3" inlet of a spintech muffler. That sound clip was only revving up to 6500rpm. I just rebuild the motor and am building a set of longer tube headers with 1.75" primarys, I can't wait to hear it at 7500rpm.
Zac : Which motor are you working with, and which sound clip?
Edit: Never mind about type of motor, you posted while I was away for a moment, still curious about the sound clip though.
2nd E : Found those too.
[This message has been edited by gt88norm (edited 11-06-2007).]
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12:12 AM
Erik Member
Posts: 5625 From: Des Moines, Iowa Registered: Jul 2002
I thought about keeping the 1.5" primarys but the exhaust port on the head is quite a bit bigger than the ID of the 1.5" tube. It matches up perfectly to the ID of a 1.75" and i think it will provide a much smoother flow. I'm using ryans 7730 ecm setup. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...070315-2-076767.html .
ahh so thats where that great sound is coming from..yours is the closest to a Ferrari sound I've heard so far from a 90 degree cross plane v8 in a Fiero or even the DOHC V6, IMO ...Ryan's chip does have a higher rev limit capability then ???
[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 11-06-2007).]
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12:18 AM
Zac88GT Member
Posts: 1026 From: Victoria BC Registered: Nov 2004
A) May not be important, but would require less shenanigans than the 'snakes'. B) That's OK
A) It is important because you can't run an X-pipe between two pipes that aren't next to each other. I won't run anything but an X-pipe because it's significantly superior to H-type crossovers. If you must use an H-type crossover, then you need to consider the length of the crossover pipe into your thinking. The H-pipe will affect pulses differently depending on which bank they come from. B) No, that's not OK. If the pulses aren't equally interleaved, then they won't come out the pipes equally timed and you won't get the intended sound across the RPM range.
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01:13 PM
PFF
System Bot
Will Member
Posts: 14280 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I thought about keeping the 1.5" primarys but the exhaust port on the head is quite a bit bigger than the ID of the 1.5" tube. It matches up perfectly to the ID of a 1.75" and i think it will provide a much smoother flow. The engine got a totally stock rebuild except for high compression steel shim headgaskets, valve springs, and retainers from CHRFab. I also ported and polished the heads a little and back cut the intake valves. I'm using ryans 7730 ecm setup. There are some pics of the old headers before i painted them in this link. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...070315-2-076767.html . I'll start a new thread when i start the new headers, but that probably wont be until mid december or january.
When ported (at least the way CHRF does it), the perimeter of the exhaust ports is the same as that of a 1 5/8" ID tube.
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02:23 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
OK I checked on the rebody ('cause it sounds fantastic) & it has a glasspack in place of the cat, & Ansa dual tip resonators. It's a little "rumbly" at highway speeds or when you're lugging it a little, but reving it & going through the gears it really does sound good. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective.
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01:38 PM
gem1138 Member
Posts: 631 From: Baton Rouge, LA Registered: Aug 2007
I have to concur with Will that a flat crank has no benefit on a V6 engine. In fact I'll go further and say that it is impossible to get even firing with a flat crank and a 60 degree or a 90 degree V6 and there is no breathing benefit to doing it either. The bundle-o-snakes approach should get a similar sound and great breathing but is rather impractical in a Fiero engine compartment methinks.
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03:00 PM
sspeedstreet Member
Posts: 2306 From: Santa Maria, CA Registered: Dec 2002
An 'H' pipe merely relieves pressure from a resonant standing wave, and yes the scavenging affect of an 'X' pipe is more desirable, they each have their place, having the 'Y' pipe in the right place is also good. How to find that sweet spot would be pure conjecture on my part. Probably some sort of formula somewhere, but I've never come across it. I'm thinking the added weight of true dual exhaust with or without 'X' or 'H' pipes would not be worth it in a 2800# car w/ less than or equal to 200 hp. But that's just me.
Norm
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06:55 PM
PFF
System Bot
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
Porsche also had a tractor ...the best sound maker for a fiero is the glasspack muffler , they do not equate to the "exotic" sound at idle ,but running thru the gears,, the sound is as close as you will get to a ferrari and its cheap,, but the idle sounds like any regular fiero,,the duke has the closest sound to a ferarri under hard acceleration!!
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09:40 AM
ducattiman Member
Posts: 674 From: TheNetherlands Registered: Mar 2003
Can we realize that a flat crank as absolutely ZERO relevance to a 6 cylinder engine?
I don't know what people think about flat cranks, but there's nothing to debate regarding their relationship with 6 cylinder engines... there is no relationship.
pls retrack that statement,,,,,,
and say chevy v6 as porsche has a 180* degree 6 cylinder with a flat crank
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11:02 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14280 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Heh... I guess so. So does Subaru, for that matter.
It doesn't apply to V6's or inline 6's, anyway. Doesn't matter if it's a Chevy or not. A 120 degree V6 would be even fire with three crank throws, but I've never heard of anyone building one.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-09-2007).]
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12:31 PM
Jan 24th, 2008
SAFASTRO Member
Posts: 604 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Nov 2006
Notice the driver is talking in a normal (not yelling) voice to his passenger
I don't mean to get personal here.... but that Honda S2000 is HARDLY the sound of a Ferrari. Even the older 4 cyl Grand Prix Ferraris sounded different than that. THAT sound, is a high rpm Honda sound. That's a sound that they've had since they started making cars (Honda S600).
If you add another S2000 motor next to it, then it might sound closer.
)
