I'm going to be dropping the cradle when I do my G6 six speed swap in a month or so. Since the engine is going to be out of the car, I figure it's best to do a cam now rather than wait 6 months and drop the thing again.

I've never installed a cam or removed a harmonic balancer before... I ask the guy at the local autozone (which has been total hit-or-miss, sometimes they help and sometimes they feed me a line of straight up bull s***). He said he doesn't have a special puller for that engine, and it's only a few years old (L32) and that I should be able to get it off myself.

So my first question- How do I remove it? If a special tool is required let me know what and where to get it.

Second- I want to do the VS cam because I don't have to change any valve springs or switch from the stock timing chain, and no huge computer changes are required to run it (yes I know I need to get it tuned eventually... but zzp says it's mild enough to keep the computer happy and not set any codes). I'm wondering if two years down the road I get the twitch for more horsepower and upgrade the heads... zoomer said stage 2 heads should pick up another 20whp compared to the VS cam and stock heads.

Has anyone ever ran the VS cam with 1.7 or 1.8 rockers? And with what heads?... how did it run compared to say an XP cam with 1.6 rockers?

Any other tips or suggestions to a 1st time cam installer, please share

I have been planning on running my 1.8 rockers on a VS cam eventually for what its worth...

I think a VS is a complete waste of time, just because there is so much more power in a bigger cam, and still make it on stock heads. There is also extra power when you use the upper RPM range, especially when you have that horrid 6speed manual trans. The only way to see north of 5500rpms without valve float is to start running modded valvetrain components, such as springs, which requires a timing chain upgrade. Honestly the only way I think you will be able to tolerate the tractor pulling gear ratios of that stupid F40 is with a very high shiftpoint, which isnt going to happen unless you upgrade springs/chain (130# and a rollmaster double), and I suggest OE-R comp lifters. You should then be able to rev it out to nearly 7k without issues.

Basically spend the time and effort on actually going through the motor for a XP... its going to make a ton more power and let you run safer.

If you just want an easy upgrade, put some 1.9 rockers on. I got my new roller tip 1.8's for $200. You will be floating valves at 5500 still though.

quote Originally posted by zi_gravedigger: I've never installed a cam or removed a harmonic balancer before... I ask the guy at the local autozone (which has been total hit-or-miss, sometimes they help and sometimes they feed me a line of straight up bull s***). He said he doesn't have a special puller for that engine, and it's only a few years old (L32) and that I should be able to get it off myself. So my first question- How do I remove it? If a special tool is required let me know what and where to get it.

This is the first time,I've heard the L32 needed a "special" puller to remove the harmonic balancer.when I say "special",I mean different from the puller used for the L67.

I have never pulled the balancer off an L32,but I'm very familiar with the L67,and have swapped several cams in this engine.I may be wrong,but I'm thinking,It's the same balancer.I'm sure someone here can clear that up,as I would also like to know.

I'll try to help,untill someone corrects me,if i'm wrong.This info is based on the ideal,that the L32 and L67 have the same type balancer.If so,Yes you need a "special puller" when I say "special " I mean It's different from most all "universal type" pullers. Allthough I have heard of people somehow using the regular balancer pullers to remove a L67 balancer,I highly recommened not attempting such!!!

So again,if the L32 has the same type balancer as the L67,this is the puller needed to remove it,and should be avaliable at Autozone.



Thanks...
Chad

Thanks for the info. Any part numbers for that puller so I can just walk in and get it without having them try to look it up and tell me it doesn't exist? I'm going to print the page right off their website before I go there. I just dont have time to waste searching at the moment...

Zoomer recommended the XP cam for a stick car because it didn't have as much low end torque and had a better upper end than the VS. He also recommended a cam over rockers. Perhaps I could get 1.7 or 1.8 rockers and do heads/cam together at a later date.... but that will be a long time. Not 100% sure I'd want to wait that long lol.

But he said with my current setup I'd only see about 10 more HP with the XP over the VS, and that I'd need an upgraded timing chain and valve springs. Then tuning software to raise the shift points. overall... just too expensive right now. I can swing ~$400 for the VS cam since the engine will be out of the car already. I can't do $1000+ for springs, XP, tuning software...

Dark, I know you're not a fan of the 6 speed's ratios. Personally I'm not looking forward to the stupid low 1st gear. But I am looking forward to 5th-6th overdrive for going down the freeway. This car is my daily driver and I usually drive 175mile each way to visit family every few months. This also plays into my cam choice- this is a daily driver. Before I'd throw heads/big cam etc I'd have something else lined up for DD. Basically I'm set on the 6 speed and lets not flame me for that... but I'm still open for input on the cam and rockers. I haven't ordered any parts for that yet.

For the cam procedure I found this write up helpful: http://www.3800pro.com/foru...lation-l67-tech.html


The J tool number is J-38197-2. You can use a standard puller and get the different bolts from your local hardware store. Thats what I did and had no issues. Search the web for the correct bolts, I don't have the link anymore. If you do use a standard puller, be careful not to damage the threads in the crankshaft.

quote Originally posted by zi_gravedigger: Dark, I know you're not a fan of the 6 speed's ratios. Personally I'm not looking forward to the stupid low 1st gear. But I am looking forward to 5th-6th overdrive for going down the freeway. This car is my daily driver and I usually drive 175mile each way to visit family every few months. This also plays into my cam choice- this is a daily driver. Before I'd throw heads/big cam etc I'd have something else lined up for DD. Basically I'm set on the 6 speed and lets not flame me for that... but I'm still open for input on the cam and rockers. I haven't ordered any parts for that yet.

Stock heads will last you forever... Zoomer is just trying to make money off you...

The xp is going to make YOU tons more power, because you have a manual trans, something he has no experience with.

Personally if I did a manual swap with a F40, and didnt have any money to spend on mod stuff, I would just put springs and a timing chain in so I could spin it faster.... Getting an effective 1500 rpms extra in each gear is going to help you a ton.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Stock heads will last you forever... Zoomer is just trying to make money off you... The xp is going to make YOU tons more power, because you have a manual trans, something he has no experience with. Personally if I did a manual swap with a F40, and didnt have any money to spend on mod stuff, I would just put springs and a timing chain in so I could spin it faster.... Getting an effective 1500 rpms extra in each gear is going to help you a ton.

I understand what you're saying about the extra RPMs. Could you explain more in the difference between a manual trans and the 4t65hd as far as power output with the XP cam? What needs tuned differently? Would the setup you recommend still be reliable? I don't want to be replacing timing chains every 10k miles or have one give out and trash my whole motor.

Also I read a thread on ClubGP about double roller chains being unreliable. Is there any truth to this or is it just a few guys with super high lift, stiff springs and a really high reving motor managed to bust one?

quote Originally posted by zi_gravedigger: I understand what you're saying about the extra RPMs. Could you explain more in the difference between a manual trans and the 4t65hd as far as power output with the XP cam? What needs tuned differently? Would the setup you recommend still be reliable? I don't want to be replacing timing chains every 10k miles or have one give out and trash my whole motor. Also I read a thread on ClubGP about double roller chains being unreliable. Is there any truth to this or is it just a few guys with super high lift, stiff springs and a really high reving motor managed to bust one?

Timing chain issues come from them being installed incorrectly.. there is no real issue with the upgraded chains. A stock setup and a modded setup are going to be similarly reliable but when your making 120whp more with the modded setup over stock, then you may find reliability issues elsewhere.

Even if you are going to stay perfectly stock, you will want to have a tuner on hand as its impossible to get a manual setup tuned correctly via mail order stuff. You can usually get it to dump enough fuel you dont knock, but you will be really far off on horsepower.

quote Could you explain more in the difference between a manual trans and the 4t65hd as far as power output with the XP cam?

Well, its like this...

In an auto, you dont worry about your RPMS so much as you have the right gearing to stay in your max power range for most of the time you are in the gas. By shifting later you are not really gaining much power because your after shift RPM is still going to be up around 4k Now in the manual stuff, being able to take those gears out gives you a ton less rpm drop issues, and you can get right back into your powerband, and you can get the car out in first gear a ton further, which lets you really work your traction and clutch to get moving. The XP is going to offer tons and tons of gains up here in these high rpms power wise too, so you wont be losing power shifting up in these areas via valve float and just bad flowing heads.

In the rocker car with a 5speed, he is forced to shift at 5600 or sooner, and it sucks... The last setup I did had an XP cam, springs, ect, and it was an absolute beast of a car compared to the highly tuned rocker car. Getting up in the 6k area with a cammed setup, alum flywheel, was a real experience coming from a more stock setup.

well you're really making me consider the XP lol. And thanks for the info. Easy enough to understand. But there's no way I can afford the tuner at this point if I throw $615 at the cam/chain, mod'd retainer and 105# springs plus $150 for the cam install kit and $160 for lifters. That's about $1000 compared to about $450 for the VS cam and install kit.

Will the lifters need changed if I go with the VS cam? Originally I hadn't considered it in the cost... perhaps I will talk myself into the XP since lifters with the VS will cost around $600. Or hold off on the cam all together until I have more money... it'd be nice to get it all done at once rather than drop the cradle again later though.

I'm still toying with the idea of adding springs and rockers later to the VS cam... it'd be interesting to see how it would perform with some combination of 1.7/1.8/1.9 rockers. Maybe higher ratio rockers on the exhaust to make it closer to the XP cam's character... like 1.8 intake and 1.84 exhaust? Or 1.7 intake 1.8 exhaust?

quote Originally posted by zi_gravedigger: I'm still toying with the idea of adding springs and rockers later to the VS cam... it'd be interesting to see how it would perform with some combination of 1.7/1.8/1.9 rockers. Maybe higher ratio rockers on the exhaust to make it closer to the XP cam's character... like 1.8 intake and 1.84 exhaust? Or 1.7 intake 1.8 exhaust?

My friend in town is convinced his VS with 1.7 rockers makes more power than anything else period... but I dont know if I believe him. ZZP insists that 1.7 rockers dont make extra power on the dyno... but I find that hard to believe too. At the end of the day, getting the right cam and keeping stock rockers is way cheaper than upgrading rockers... and rockers weight savings is all you are going to get by going to a custom one (maybe 2whp?).

Lifters are sorta hot item anymore... ZZP insists they completely eliminate valve float and make 20-30-40whp on the dyno in the extreme RPM ranges, on their fast high RPM drag cars, which I agree with, but the "hackjob" type guys I usually side with say that a stock lifter will be perfect for nearly any setup, and have proven it at the track.

I would really start looking around the used area for your mod parts too... And I would stay away from the 105 springs. If I was to build a XP cam setup, using stock lifters, i think I could get out the door in the used section for less than $400 easily. There is an xp cam up there right now for $225 just looking real quick.

You really should look at getting a tuner.... its the best mod for even a bone stock motor....

thanks again... I've got some thinking to do then.

Another question, back to the balancer. I picked up a balancer puller at sears... searched online to see what thread bolts I would need for the 3800 and I got 3 different answers (only one of which came with the puller). So what thread and length bolts should I pick up at the hardware store?

1/4-28 x 3inch grade 8 bolts with washers.

Put a 3 inch extension into the hole of the crank.

quote Originally posted by ChadTanner: This is the first time,I've heard the L32 needed a "special" puller to remove the harmonic balancer.when I say "special",I mean different from the puller used for the L67. I have never pulled the balancer off an L32,but I'm very familiar with the L67,and have swapped several cams in this engine.I may be wrong,but I'm thinking,It's the same balancer.I'm sure someone here can clear that up,as I would also like to know. I'll try to help,untill someone corrects me,if i'm wrong.This info is based on the ideal,that the L32 and L67 have the same type balancer.If so,Yes you need a "special puller" when I say "special " I mean It's different from most all "universal type" pullers. Allthough I have heard of people somehow using the regular balancer pullers to remove a L67 balancer,I highly recommened not attempting such!!! So again,if the L32 has the same type balancer as the L67,this is the puller needed to remove it,and should be avaliable at Autozone. Thanks... Chad

A universal Lisle puller will do the same. Now getting abck on topic, I would say carefull evaluate the cams profile before you purchase. On the Club GP forum there is a post about the lift rates of some aftermarket cams being so great that they put loads of stress on valve train. The smart choice is probably the XP cam but before choosing that profile you will need to evaluate your power curve and determine where you want your peak torque and horspower.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: 1/4-28 x 3inch grade 8 bolts with washers. Put a 3 inch extension into the hole of the crank.

Thanks so much. I'll have to make a special trip for grade 8 bolts... the home depot right up the street doesn't have any. They do have grade 5... Is there that much force that grade 8 are required?

Sounds like everyone is saying XP cam then. idk... I would like more power up high and a higher rev limit would be nice... but the VS cam is just so much more affordable at this point in time. Perhaps I should say F*** it, go big or go home lol. Its that kind of thinking that got me to do the 3800 swap in the first place, and other than tranny problems, I can't say I'm disappointed

Well I've committed to the XP cam and 105# springs. Found a good deal on them on ClubGP. $225 for the cam and $90 for the springs. That's the same price as a new VS cam would've been anyways...

So as of now this thread took a bit of a turn in topic. Now, it's onto XP cam questions- 3800 guys
lol

ZZP lists shift points of 6400 with a rev limit of 6800. Obviously I'm using the manual 6 speed. What should I settle on for a rev limit? 6800 sounds high to me- I'd rather error on the side of caution, since I've never done this before. 6600? 6500?

They don't list it as required online, but two emails from ZZP said that the XP with 105s would require a double roller timing chain. There website says different:

quote Double chain sets are required for engines running valve springs higher than 105 pound.

This thread on clubGP has me worried about double roller chains. Cheap ass foreign manufacturing from the sounds of it.
http://www.clubgp.com/newfo...&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
The part that worries me:

quote *Rollmaster was recently purchased by the investment group that owns JP. The latest batch of Rollmaster we recieved is different. The lower gears are now 2 piece like the JP and the packaging is smaller. The chains appear to be the same JWIS units. We will be conducting further tests, working with the manufactures and assisting customers through this difficult situation.

So, with the XP and 105# springs, who votes I risk a rollmaster double chain and who says stick with oem single chain and dampener? What benefits does the double offer? It removes but balance shaft gear, but how does that translate into a benefit for me? Better reliability? More HP? Both?

well according to ZZP removing the balance shaft gear has little affect on the engine as far as vibrations go. Slightly, if noticable vibration, at idle. If there are any power gains to be made by balance shaft removal I doubt they would be noticable either. Now the power gains of the XP cam would be very apparent. lol. Also I just changed my stock cam out for the XPZ and it wasn't too hard. Just take your time and be careful. I went with the double roller because I had to with the XPZ. In your case I would to because while chances may be slim you will break a single chain the fact remains that getting everything together then breaking a timing chain and having to pull everything back out just sucks. Lastly if you get a double roller you should buy the machined oil pump cover from ZZP so you don't have clearance issues with your timing cover. I've heard of some people running two paper gaskets but that has been with mixed results. I know I sound like a ZZP spokes rep, but hey the guys such as Zoomer at ZZP have answered TONS and TONS of emails from me about things I wasnt even purchasing so I hate to say that they were just trying to make a buck, because I don't think that was the case.........O yeah, you only have to remove the balance shaft gears NOT the entire shaft. You can, mind you, but there is a port that has to be plugged if you do remove the entire shaft. Hope this all helps.

thanks Khaos... good info.

You had already replied while I was editing my post above... what have you to say about the lifters?

Same situation as far as lifters go. All about what your willing to risk. I didnt replace mine and yes I should have given the fact that I have such an aggressive cam all the way into high RPM ranges, but I didnt have the money. However my engine, when I tore it down, looked brand new I could still see the original cross-hatch on the cylinders. I did inspect my lifter though and they had no scoring or loose rollers on them so I took a chance. Difference is lifters can be replaced/changed with the engine in the car, timing chain........possible I'm sure but definitely something I'm not going to attempt. I will say, and I'm by no means ASE certified, that if your engine is relatively low mileage then I dont see them giving you a whole lot of trouble with the XP cam. But on the side of whats better in the long run good rule is always change your lifters.

Just so you know, I was running an XP cam, 105s, Rollmaster 2roller, Balance shaft in place w/removed gear, OE-R lifters, & stock rockers on my manual SC setup. There were zero issues with this setup. The car had great power throughout the rpm band and was a blast to drive.

I'm still running the XP Cam for now with the OE-Rs but I bought some CC 130# springs to combat float with the higher boost now that I'm turbo.

This was my basic parts list...
Valve Seals
Supercharger Gasket
Intake Gaskets
Front Cover Gasket
Valve Cover Gasket
Cam Bolt
Crank Bolt
Rocker Bolts

XP Cam
105# Springs
Mod'd Retainers
Valve Locks
Double Roller Chain
CC OE-R Lifters
Oil Pump Cover

Oil Filters
Cheap Oil
Good Oil
Antifreeze
Assembly Lube
Spark Plugs

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 01-28-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Just so you know, I was running an XP cam, 105s, Rollmaster 2roller, Balance shaft in place w/removed gear, OE-R lifters, & stock rockers on my manual SC setup. There were zero issues with this setup. The car had great power throughout the rpm band and was a blast to drive. I'm still running the XP Cam for now with the OE-Rs but I bought some CC 130# springs to combat float with the higher boost now that I'm turbo.

Just curious, how many miles did you end up putting on this setup?

And any dyno numbers? Haha just curious what I can expect... I'm sure headers and a smaller pulley would help out but for now it'll be xp cam, 3.4 pulley on the L32 blower, zzp power log and 3" catless exhaust... and a tune

quote Originally posted by zi_gravedigger: Just curious, how many miles did you end up putting on this setup? And any dyno numbers? Haha just curious what I can expect... I'm sure headers and a smaller pulley would help out but for now it'll be xp cam, 3.4 pulley on the L32 blower, zzp power log and 3" catless exhaust... and a tune

You will be running a 3.0 or lower pulley on it after leaving my shop... so be ready to put a tiny thing on there when your tuning....

The OE-r's are designed specifically to have no "pump up" issues...by doing that they do not adjust to get zero lash... OE-Rs are non adjustable so unless it spec'ed out perfect when you measured the base lobe size of the cam, pushrod length and rocker height, then you are either not getting advertised lift and have play in the system, or a valve is getting left open a bit...

The only reason to run a OE-R is for high RPM operation... They dont do anything other than let you spin the motor faster which on a manual trans setup is what you want.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: You will be running a 3.0 or lower pulley on it after leaving my shop... so be ready to put a tiny thing on there when your tuning....

Can you say CHIPPED!!!!!

I made 352hp/358 but that all really depends on what kind of dyno you use. This was thru an isuzu 5speed and OBD1 computer. Ran it for just over a year, so probably about 10-15k miles. The only thing that I changed since then is the SC to turbo. So add about another 5k since then.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 01-28-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Nah, its ok, a 2.8 pulley with 12* of timing through peak torque and a hell of a lot of heat.

With high 10:! afr I could run a 2.8 with full timing on the xp cam setup you saw stephen. When I got the afr in check I could only do the 3.0.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: You will be running a 3.0 or lower pulley on it after leaving my shop... so be ready to put a tiny thing on there when your tuning....

Would perhaps a 3.2 or 3.25 be safer? I don't have headers and it's a daily driver... I guess I'm just wondering even if it's not knocking if my exhaust and heads are up to the 3.0. Then again, I've never done this before. So, continue the discussion.

Sounds like I'll keep my stock lifters then. That's $160 saved... thank god lol. I just hope it doesnt come bite me in the ass 5000 miles from now...

I would not run smaller than the 3.2. It may be 'fine' after tuning, but you're still running on the edge, whichever way you look at it. If the engine sees a different load, you're really going to be pushing it. Even if its something out of your hands, lets say a bad tank of gas, you'll have that much more cushion with the 3.2. Besides anything around a 3.0 or smaller and the M90 is just cranking out heat. The change from a 3.2 to a 3.0 is not equivalent to the difference from a 3.5 to a 3.3, for instance.

Stock pulley on the gen V m90 was 3.8 wasn't it? And that was around 8lbs of boost? And it is approximately +1psi per .1inch pulley drop? Those are just things I've read roaming the internet... but if I wanted 16+psi of boost I'd be using a whipple or a turbo... I understand that around 14-15psi the M90 really has to beat the hell outta the air as it pushes back past the rotors... aka lots of heat. The whipple and turbo don't have that issue... from what I've read. And I'm not getting into an intercooler at this time.

And I don't have that much money lol.

I think the 3.2 or 3.25 would be a safer bet, even with the lost power. Piece of mind and safety are more important... as much as I wanna go fast and piss off LT1s and LS1s, I want to be able to make it to and from work every day. Besides, I'm sure a 3.2/XP cam combo at 6400rpm in a Fiero is going to surprise a lot of people

Pulley size is nothing to be afraid of. If your motor is moving the right amount of air, you can pulley the blower to compesate...

With tank wbodies and auto transmissions, most have no problems running your setup withh 2.8's. There are more than 3 or 4 similar xp setups I have tuned that run a 3.0 all day and a 2.6 with race gas, no intercooler, which is why I always tell people its dumb to get an intercooler on their fiero swaps it really isnt needed. When you put in the manual transmission factor, the whole ball game changes again, making everything you read on cgp complete crap when trying to compare to yours... Almost nothing directly transvers over from the wbody kids, and even to a degree I noticed my car with the auto did alot of unique thins just because it was in a fiero and not in a land oil tanker 4door. The Gen5 is comparable to a lightly intercooled gen3 anyway and seems to move a slightly amount more air than the gen3 at the same time...

The 2.8 on my last manual setup made about 13psi at 6300rpms. PSI does not mean anything when talking about any motors,its more about flow. PSI is made by resistance and cam timing.. the XP cam will drop a ton of measured PSI in your intake, and so will the exhaust, and honestly even a northstar will lower boost.

quote Besides anything around a 3.0 or smaller and the M90 is just cranking out heat.

Thhat is very far from the truth. Heat only comes from compressor inefficency.. and that only comes from extreme pressure ratios. Thhe actual speed of the blower has no bearing on anything but amount of horsepower required to spin it that fast... Now its not to say the efficency stays the same, it just does not fall significantly by increasing the speed nearly as much as you make heat by increasing pressure ratio.

Look at the compressor map one day and you will see what I mean. A M90 with an equivilent of a 5 inch pulley making 14psi of boost is making "more heat" than a 2.6 pulley at a 10psi or less pressure ratio

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 01-28-2009).]

also with the manual there's always the situation where the engine sees a larger load than it might have in an auto... say for some reason I were to floor it in 4th instead of downshifting to 3rd, then shifting back to 4th 1500 rpm later (I'll only take it to 5500RPM in it's current form, and trying to downshift at 60-65 just isn't worth it). Since I don't have my own tuner to scan constantly, I think I would feel safer with a 3.2... perhaps even the 3.25.

besides pulley- here's another question

quote During the camshaft break-in cycle, remove the inner valve springs to help prevent premature lobe wear. Run the engine 2000-2500 RPM for 30 minutes.

from http://www.compcams.com/Tec...ctions/Files/145.pdf

I don't understand the "remove inner valve springs." I though I'd change to the 105s, change the cam and chain, and put it all together and start it up. Cheap dyno oil and filter, run the 30 minutes, drain and change back to my mobil1 10w30 and extended performance filter.

quote Look at the compressor map one day and you will see what I mean. A M90 with an equivilent of a 5 inch pulley making 14psi of boost is making "more heat" than a 2.6 pulley at a 10psi or less pressure ratio

I haven't seen a map for the M90, but I understand exactly what you mean. I've wasted enough hours of my life fulfilling my ADD on the internet to know lol. The thing is, I don't know what type of pressure this thing is building now with the stock cam and 3.4, let alone with a 3.2, or 3.0 on the XP. I understand that with great heads, big cam and awesome headers the engine will flow enough to make a 2.6 seem no more difficult than 2 or 3 sizes larger. I just don't want to chance it on a daily diver. I feel the 3.2 would be safer to run year 'round for me

[This message has been edited by zi_gravedigger (edited 01-28-2009).]

With 1.9 rockers and nothing else, stock manifolds and a fairly junk exhaust, a 3.2 is not nearly enough pulley for it..... I cant make up for it with timing on 110 at all, on pump I run it at 19 just because I dont see a need to crank it more.

There is zero cam breakin procedure for a 3800, its just install and go.

As far as the "extra load in high gears" thing goes.. I have been able to easily fix it with small timing or fueling mods, and I never saw it again while tuning all of the manual cars I have done so far.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 01-28-2009).]

I hope your torch hurries up and burns out so you will move on. You put out so much BS to others that it is just sad to read and unsafe for others. A Grand Prix with Gen V running a 2.8 pulley with the MODs listed from the OP will only be running for a short period of time.

I think the Honda Forum is needing a new torch carrier, might wanna go check out there Forum.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I hope your torch hurries up and burns out so you will move on. You put out so much BS to others that it is just sad to read and unsafe for others. A Grand Prix with Gen V running a 2.8 pulley with the MODs listed from the OP will only be running for a short period of time. I think the Honda Forum is needing a new torch carrier, might wanna go check out there Forum.

Too bad my friends run their 2.8 pulleys on the same mod level cars, in wbodies, with L36/L26 bottom ends. They seem to have no issues.

I'm going with a 3.25 pulley for peace of mind. I need to be able to drive year round without worrying about retuning when it goes from 15*F to 95*F outside, and be able to throw in a few gallons of 93 from 711 without worrying about bad gas totaling my motor. I've got plenty of other things that need done on the car, so a good set of headers, 3.0 and tuner aren't going to happen... not for years. I want better brakes, new wheels and tires, and sway bars... before I touch the engine again

I've always been told when tuning on a dyno to use the least timing needed to make the most power. For example, if you dyno 300hp at 18*, and 300-301 at 21*, running 18 would be the better choice. I've never tuned before- Just what people have told me.

Back on topic and away from the pulley arguments, I still don't understand what comp cams is saying here:

quote During the camshaft break-in cycle, remove the inner valve springs to help prevent premature lobe wear. Run the engine 2000-2500 RPM for 30 minutes.

from http://www.compcams.com/Tec...ctions/Files/145.pdf

I don't understand the "remove inner valve springs." I though I'd change to the 105s, change the cam and chain, and put it all together and start it up. Cheap dyno oil and filter, run the 30 minutes, drain and change back to my mobil1 10w30 and extended performance filter. I've heard of lightweight valvesprings to use during break in, but it sounds like a major pain in the ass...

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Too bad my friends run their 2.8 pulleys on the same mod level cars, in wbodies, with L36/L26 bottom ends. They seem to have no issues.

Yeah--There are always "THOSE FRIENDS" out there that can do that.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Yeah--There are always "THOSE FRIENDS" out there that can do that.

Its a bit more than that.. I am the one tuning these cars....

There's really no need to argue about what pulley can or can't be run here anymore... If I drove a new, reliable old-lady's car to work and to get groceries, then I'd avoid the topic all together, throw on some headers and go have the 3.0 tuned. This car is already fast, and with the tune, cam, 3.25 and new transmission it'll kick the **** out of my friend's 5.0 mustang (if it were running at the moment... poor guy's got no luck at all), and my room mates LT1 corvette. Which makes me happy enough not to go any further than a 3.25 since I've got to make this car streetable year-round and don't want to worry about blowing the engine because of bad gas or the transition from winter-summer.

With the 3.25 if I can hit 300hp at the wheels I'm going to be excited. Any more and I'll be jumping up and down... any less, who gives a damn? I love the car now enough to throw $3000 into a 6 speed swap, and figured while I'm at it the engine deserves a little attention too.

Back to the topic of the cam-
I picked up a valve spring compressor from Sears, and a compression test kit (mainly for the spark plug port adapter to apply compressed air to the cylinders)
I'm going to try to pick up an engine lift tonight. Update on that later/tomorrow.
I'll have to borrow an air compressor... I hope someone has one. Any other way to change valve springs if I dont have compressed air? (edit... can't afford the big compressor I'd like to get, and hate the tiny ass ones. Refuse to buy. Maybe rental?)

[This message has been edited by zi_gravedigger (edited 01-29-2009).]