does anyone, who has done a succesful th440/4t60 swap have a definitive list of parts, that i will need to collect over the winter, so i can do this swap when i put my 3.4 p/r engine in next spring? i've read a bunch of different pages on this subject on PFF some say one thing and the next says something else, axels needed, relays needed, mounts, pressure valves. what do i need to collect? what did you use? what are the shortcommings of doing it that you have discovered? i just need a list of what works. i'm probably not the only one wanting this information. thanks ahead of time for any help.

Check out Fiero Addiction... lots of info and parts to do the conversion

quote Originally posted by v8fiero400: Check out Fiero Addiction... lots of info and parts to do the conversion

That is what I did- I printed out the text and pictures so that I could have everything in the shop when I started working. I've been driving with the auto overdrive for a few years now and it is a great addition to any automatic Fiero!

One question as i am doing a 3.4 PR swap, and looking for a 4T60 with a final ratio of 3.33. I have read on one site that you are to use the right and left axels from a manuel fiero; yet on another site i was told to use right and left from a 89 pontiac 6000. Can anyone clear this up? Tell me what i need to buy, part numbers if possible. thx jay

that's what i mean! that's why i/we would like a list of what worked, and what didn't. what did you use that makes you so happy with your swap? axels, pressure switch, relay,transmission mounts,years of,and types of cars the trans came from,torque converters, flex plate needed,ect. just help out another fiero enthusiast, or two or three, to avoid any confusion, these cars are frustrating enough without having to trial and error everything when there's someone out there who has the knowledge we need. otherwise there will be more fiero's in the scrap heap. i've read everything that i could find on the 3.4 engine and have been well satisfied. thanks to all who contributed to that! but the th 440/4t60 swap is confusing. thats why, those who love their swap have the most important information! thanks to any and all who contribute dave (whew! that was alot of huntin' and peckin', sorry)

There are a few challanges to your request.

The 4T60 and the 4T60E use different axles and people sometimes get these mixed up.
The needed axle lengths depends on tranny placement side to side within the cradle (which can change depending on the mounts used).
The proper length axles can come from a variety of applications and still be an axle that works.

There are several different combinations of mounts/axles that work when properly paired.

For any swap retaining the factory 60* V6 variant and stock engine mount, I would stick with the info from space coast fieros writeup:
http://spacecoastfieros.com.../440-4T60/index.html

Once you start with a non-stock engine family, it is best to stick with 1 vendor for all mounts, brackets and axles to ensure compatibility.

Another thing worth mentioning, get a service manual for the tranny before you start on the TCC circuit... there are 10+ different circuits within the 4T60 run and if you follow anyones TCC instructions w/o checking what you have you cound have an issue.

Here are just a few of the variants within the years and between the years:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-06-2008).]

thanks for your reply, but what i'm looking for is a definitive list of what someone has used that has a succesful swap and they're happy with. what you have used, what specific parts, what specific alterations were made, all on one page, so i can go to junk yards, go down the list and pick everything up, because as you know it's a hassel, to keep stopping work on your projects to keep going and getting stuff, that if you had a definitive list before you started on a project you would have everything you need. thanks again

There are several threads documenting swaps to the 4T60. As I said above there are a bunch of different combinations of parts to accomplish the same thing depending on variables like mounts used and tranny placement.

Here is a thread on a 3.4/4T60 swap with documentation of every part he used. If you match all his parts, it should work for you.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/091777.html

For my 4T60 install in my Indy, I referred to the information here: http://www.spacecoastfieros.com/tech/440-4T60/

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3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003/2004 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner
My SD4 Indy www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/096075.html

thanks fieroguru, thats one scary post you directed me to, it looks like you have to have all your ducks in a row before you check out your swap, especially if you have your trans rebuilt. it seems that the best thing to do is look for a car that has been wrecked and get the trans out of it, like at a police auction or something like that.

The later years have the most upgrades and should be the most durable vs. the earlier years, but the earlier years have the Fiero VSS compatible speedo housing.

The 4T60 I installed with my 4.3 was from an 86 Buick Rivera. Is the 3.33 final drive, had an 1895 stall (changed it to a lower one), the fiero compatible VSS and the N.O. 3rd gear switch in series with the TCC solenoid (just like the 125C).

o.k. i've got a chance to buy a front wheel drive trans out of a 88 celebrity with 2.8, with 88000 mi. for 150.00 off of craigs list. is that a 4t60/th440 trans.? i also thought that the best trans were 87-90! but now i see earlier years may be more compatible as far as vss goes. thanks for the info. dave

I checked autozone.com and the tranny pan gasket for the 88 celebrity w/2.8 shows the 440T4 (4T60). The front wheel bearings also show variations in the brakes (just like the pontiac 6000), so if this celebrity has the 100mm bolt pattern on the wheels, I would grab the axles as well.

I see what your saying...this 4T60 swap seems more complicated than the 3.4 swap itself. All the mixing and matching of parts from different cars that u need. Sensors and wires and things. Here it is winter and snowing, so getting to the yards will be hard. I would buy some of there parts i need from the local parts store, but how can u do that when the "help pages"; which are applauded greatly by me for there time and efforts to help people like me; and they do; but i cant get parts from the parts store because iam being told to find ones that look a certain way or compatible with this. I guess at the yard we would be just searching on a mission, but at the parts store i would need to know what cars they came from so i could ask them to search that car for the part. I was reading the topic about Alex4mula( think that's was who it was) intsall of his 4T60; and i was like wow, what a major dillemma. I was looking at a later year 4T60 because i was told they were more durable. But now i see the earlier years are more compatible. If i were to be having it rebuilt, couldnt i find an earlier year, more compatible 4T60 with 3.33 final ratio and just have the shop rebuilding it use the more durable parts? That way i would have the more compatible things along with the durability? I have printed out all the info i could find, seems like the biggest headache is finding parts from different cars that you dont know what makes and models to even search for. I would buy parts new if i knew what makes, models and years they came from. This may all be easier than it looks, maybe its just me..lol....but then again the first time you do something will always be the hardest, the 2nd time is when its easy. thx guys for any help. jay

[This message has been edited by achbaby (edited 12-07-2008).]

The spacecoastfiero link above has the tranny codes that will contain the 3.33. If the tag is still present on the tranny, you can use it to find the right tranny.

If someone near me can get me a 2.84 tranny, I would trade my 3.33 tranny currently installed behind my 4.3. It is used, never rebuilt but spent the last 10 years on the shelf. Mine came from an 86 Biuck Rivera.

achbaby, that's what i've been trying to do! to find one person, who has done the swap and is happy with it, and knows exactly what he used to do the swap, can put it all in a list so that we can go to the junk yard and pick up what we need. this is a very helpful sight i agree, but in this instance, i keep getting refered back to posts i've already read. the same posts that got me confused in the first place!

fieroguru, are all the 86 buick rivera's a 3.33 final ratio? Im more interested in finding a 3.33 that has the fiero compatible VSS along with the other things you had mentioned you your 4T60 having. Would it be safe to say that all 86 rivera's with 4T60's had the 3.33 and compatible things as yours did? thx jay

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I checked autozone.com and the tranny pan gasket for the 88 celebrity w/2.8 shows the 440T4 (4T60). The front wheel bearings also show variations in the brakes (just like the pontiac 6000), so if this celebrity has the 100mm bolt pattern on the wheels, I would grab the axles as well.

is that 4x100 or 5x100, i know that my gt's have 5x100 but are the 4 lug wheels 100mm also?

As far as what we need, i can get that from the how to do pages...the issue that makes it difficult is knowing what cars to look for and what years. The help sites just show pictures of what some of these parts have to look like; i still dont know what makes models and years they are in. Makes it more of a scavenger hunt for the parts. I would get some of them new at the parts store if i knew what makes and models to ask for at the counter. But again all this help is better than no help at all. By asking so many questions i just dont want you all to get annoyed, im just trying to make it easier when i get all this stuff together. thx jay

[This message has been edited by achbaby (edited 12-07-2008).]

quote Originally posted by davef: is that 4x100 or 5x100, i know that my gt's have 5x100 but are the 4 lug wheels 100mm also?

5x100 just like the fiero.

:=)

The later the year 4t60 the better off you will be. There where a lot of changes made by 89' and the trannies had a lot higher failer rate in the early years. Like was said the VSS wont be the right one on the later years and you cant just take a cap off the TH125. But all you need to do is find a ealier model trans and take the cover and guts and put them into your later model trans. I might even have a extra cap (dont think so though).

Jason

thank you all for your answers. i guess no one is going to make a list of what they used, to do their swap, so i guess it's trial and error time for me next spring. no one knows what they used? i guess i'll read all those posts again and do the best i can. again thank you all who tried to help. dave

quote Originally posted by davef: thank you all for your answers. i guess no one is going to make a list of what they used, to do their swap,

Maybe what I did will help https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/096075.html

As far as the VSS - the correct one looks exactly like the one on the Fiero tranny, infact the wiring harness plugs right in. When I was looking at GMs in the wrecking yards, I looked at the dash to see if it was a 4-speed auto, then looked at the VSS. Eventually, I decided to buy a rebuilt one right from a transmission shop for my Indy anyway.

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 12-09-2008).]

quote Originally posted by davef: thank you all for your answers. i guess no one is going to make a list of what they used, to do their swap, so i guess it's trial and error time for me next spring. no one knows what they used? i guess i'll read all those posts again and do the best i can. again thank you all who tried to help. dave

I used a 1990 Cadillac Seville STS 4T60 - it was the last year before it switched to the 4T60E
The rest of the stuff I used only apply when mating to the LT1 (sorry).
Most details are on bottom of page one and middle of page two in the Roadster build thread.
You just have to swap the VSS with the earlier one so the Fiero harness just plugs in.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/071642.html

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Indy Northstar-Stretch ~ LT1-NOS Roadster

quote Originally posted by achbaby: fieroguru, are all the 86 buick rivera's a 3.33 final ratio? Im more interested in finding a 3.33 that has the fiero compatible VSS along with the other things you had mentioned you your 4T60 having. Would it be safe to say that all 86 rivera's with 4T60's had the 3.33 and compatible things as yours did? thx jay

Just saw this post...

I think there were options for the different final drives across multiple platforms, but the sportier the car (like the Rivera), the greater chance it will have the 3.33 (or at least that is my assumption).

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: There are several threads documenting swaps to the 4T60. As I said above there are a bunch of different combinations of parts to accomplish the same thing depending on variables like mounts used and tranny placement. Here is a thread on a 3.4/4T60 swap with documentation of every part he used. If you match all his parts, it should work for you. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/091777.html

Thanks for posting my thread. Avoided me a search I tried to list all the parts and issues for the 88. But then I went the easy way with prefab parts (FieroAddiction). Taking out my particular tranny issues the swap was very straight forward maybe except for the cooler lines.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Thanks for posting my thread. Avoided me a search I tried to list all the parts and issues for the 88. But then I went the easy way with prefab parts (FieroAddiction). Taking out my particular tranny issues the swap was very straight forward maybe except for the cooler lines.

You always do a very good job of documenting every part of your builds. Since you went with vendor parts, it is a much better thread for others to copy than others (like mine).

Thx again to all, all the info is greatly appreciated. Will the VSS from a 440 trans work? thx jay

The 440-t4 and 4t60 are exactly the same trans, they just called them different things in different years.

Jason

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I think there were options for the different final drives across multiple platforms, but the sportier the car (like the Rivera), the greater chance it will have the 3.33 (or at least that is my assumption).

My 1990 caddy 4T60 (by the way still says 440-T4 on the pan BTW) had the 2.84 final drive but I had it changed to the 3.33 (still have the 2.84 if anyone needs it)

The Fiero VSS cap does not fit the 4T60 (it is too short)
Here are the 2 types:

what about axels? i'm getting a trans from a 88 celebrity and the axels too. also the mounts. the car they're coming out of was hit hard in the rear. does anyone know if those axels will fit? fieroguru said that the some numbers matched up at autozone but if anyone has used them i'd feel better about it. thanks

How hard is this to do, i am looking to do this swap myself with the stock 2.8, or have it done by a competent mechanic. I guess i should start by locating a 4t60 transmission first then getting the mounts and other stuff together first. Any ideas on what to do first or where to start? I'll be converting from a 4 speed manual.

[This message has been edited by Macs86GT (edited 12-10-2008).]

quote Originally posted by davef: what about axels? i'm getting a trans from a 88 celebrity and the axels too. also the mounts. the car they're coming out of was hit hard in the rear. does anyone know if those axels will fit? fieroguru said that the some numbers matched up at autozone but if anyone has used them i'd feel better about it. thanks

what about the flex plate? will the flex plate work? i know i need to get a neutrally balanced flex plate.is the 88 celebrity flex plate one of the ones i could be looking for? does anyone know what years to look for, to get the most compatable vss from?

[This message has been edited by davef (edited 12-14-2008).]

Is it true that if you do the 7730 ECM conversion, you don't need to change the VSS?

quote Originally posted by flimbob: Is it true that if you do the 7730 ECM conversion, you don't need to change the VSS?

True... if you wire the VSS directly to the ecm, wire in the signal converter circuit from the ecm VSS output to the fiero speedo and can change the road speed constant in the ecm.

I kept the later model VSS/getrag with my 7730/SBC setup.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-14-2008).]