Well, I have two fieros that need engines and I'm getting sick of them sitting around.

Fiero #1 87 coupe, 4 cyl, izusu 5 spd, had a rod knock I pulled the engine/cradle/trans and haven't gotten around to fixing it yet. I may have another good 2.5 but that doesn't sound like any fun... So, I've been kicking around the idea of swapping in a 3400 or something along those lines. More on this at the end.

Fiero #2 87 GT, my baby. I was going to put in a high po (turbo) 4 cyl but after reading about the 3.4/5/9 swaps I think I may just go that way. It's a automatic (which I plan on swapping in a manual but that will be later). I've been thinking about just swapping in a 3.4 (for now) with a TH440 auto and bracket racing it til I get around to putting in a manual/3900, or something along those lines.

I've been doing some research and have read that for the most part the 3.4/5/9 engines mount up the same as the stock 2.8, you can use a 7730 ECM and not have to re-wire anything (at least on a 6 cylinder car, not sure about the 4). The exhaust doesn't scare me, if I have to I will reuse the stock fiero stuff and make a custom y-pipe or something.

So, what I am thinking, is swapping in the 3400 (or 3500 or 3900 whichever is easier) into the 4cyl car (to get a feel for the swap) and driving that car til I get the GT done.

I guess I just need some advice, mostly on the swap, how hard is it to do this on the 4 cylinder car? Should I just swap in the stock 2.5 I have and focus on the GT? or is doing this swap on a 4 cylinder not that hard?

How about which engine to use? 3400? 3500? 3900?
Am I right about the 7730 ECM being used on any of those engines?
How about the rest of the swap? Is it relatively easy? anything else you would like to tell me?

Also, I think I read the the 88 cradle has some clearance issue's with the 60* engines, is this true? (I plan on swapping in the 88 cradle in a year or two).

anything else you want to tell me is good also.

-Brandon

Brandon:

This might be all you need: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/043407.html

Regards,

David

bump

FWIW, a 3500 coupled to the numerically lowest FDR automatic you can find (I think the 4T65E will plug straight into the factory ECM) will net you the best MPG and still be plenty quick. My G/F's '06 G6 with the very low FDR gets 35mpg on the freeway consistently, so I would think that a Fiero could hit at least 40.

My $.02

[This message has been edited by hklvette (edited 07-28-2008).]

Personally my favorite is a 3.8 Supercharged swap and stick a 6-speed pontiac G6 tranny on it. or a v-8 swap

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1985 Fiero SE-4 notch back 5-speed
1986 Fiero GT Fastback Auto
1986 Fiero GT Fastback Auto
(yes i have 2 production #6 away from eachother)
(Other Rides)
1994 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 mods and more mods
1987 Bmw E-30 bored 2.9L Turbo 5-Lug swap

[This message has been edited by HALONINE (edited 07-28-2008).]

I'm pretty determined to do one of the 60 degree V6 swaps.

Besides, I forgot to mention, I do have an almost complete 3800 SC S1 about to hit the road, so the 3800 isn't really going to be very interesting to me.

I've done a 3400 with 5speed and it was a really easy swap. I'm currently doing a 3900 swap and I can't say that I recommend it. It is fighting me tooth and nail and as much as I have done I still don't see a light at the end of the tunnel. I built headers to run the exhaust the factory fiero route and am waiting for my muffler and tips. I bought fieroaddiction trans mounts but he sent the lowering mounts which means I couldn't remove the oil filter without clearancing the frame. It doesn't have a crank sensor so your options for running it are obd1 or the factory computer. The 4t65ehd comes with a 58mm converter so I had to buy a 45mm to fit the 60degree flexplate. I just ordered the trans controller, $1,000 dollars. You need to either run a returnless fuel system or modify the fuel rail for return style. I'll be modifying mine. I just ordered a 55psi bosch regulator. The obd1 alternator hits the intake manifold and needed to be relocated to clear. I still haven't looked into the variable intake. I may just remove it for the time being and run an rpm switch after it's running and the stress eases up a bit. The cam needs to be locked to delete the vvt unless you are using the factory computer. Or alldata says it starts in full advance so you may be able to just leave it alone. I bought axles that don't fit so I still need to work through that. mine came from the factory with an air to oil cooler with the lines cut with a side cutter so I need to order an oil cooler and repair the lines. I haven't spent a lot of time looking at it but it seems like the throttlebody adapter blocks off the iac passage. Joseph upson didn't say anything in his thread about it so there must be an easy solution I overlooked. looking back I'm not sure I would have done it but I'm too deep now and am not turning back. If I were you i would do a 3400, add a 3500 top end and a cam if you want more than 185hp. Good luck, I know I need it. I almost forgot my block only has one hole to mount the external crank sensor. Probably not a big deal, I'll use lock tight but just another thing to add to my list of displeasure.

[This message has been edited by joshua riedl (edited 07-28-2008).]

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: I've done a 3400 with 5speed and it was a really easy swap. I'm currently doing a 3900 swap and I can't say that I recommend it. It is fighting me tooth and nail and as much as I have done I still don't see a light at the end of the tunnel. I built headers to run the exhaust the factory fiero route and am waiting for my muffler and tips. I bought fieroaddiction trans mounts but he sent the lowering mounts which means I couldn't remove the oil filter without clearancing the frame. It doesn't have a crank sensor so your options for running it are obd1 or the factory computer. The 4t65ehd comes with a 58mm converter so I had to buy a 45mm to fit the 60degree flexplate. I just ordered the trans controller, $1,000 dollars. You need to either run a returnless fuel system or modify the fuel rail for return style. I'll be modifying mine. I just ordered a 55psi bosch regulator. The obd1 alternator hits the intake manifold and needed to be relocated to clear. I still haven't looked into the variable intake. I may just remove it for the time being and run an rpm switch after it's running and the stress eases up a bit. The cam needs to be locked to delete the vvt unless you are using the factory computer. Or alldata says it starts in full advance so you may be able to just leave it alone. I bought axles that don't fit so I still need to work through that. mine came from the factory with an air to oil cooler with the lines cut with a side cutter so I need to order an oil cooler and repair the lines. I haven't spent a lot of time looking at it but it seems like the throttlebody adapter blocks off the iac passage. Joseph upson didn't say anything in his thread about it so there must be an easy solution I overlooked. looking back I'm not sure I would have done it but I'm too deep now and am not turning back. If I were you i would do a 3400, add a 3500 top end and a cam if you want more than 185hp. Good luck, I know I need it. I almost forgot my block only has one hole to mount the external crank sensor. Probably not a big deal, I'll use lock tight but just another thing to add to my list of displeasure.

The 3900 really wasn't that big a deal to me I guess because I had everything figured out before I bought my engine. Since I initially planned a 3500 I can see how one could have missed that I had an internal 7x ring made to replace the removable crank wheel found on the 3500/3900 crank, mentioned in my old 3500 thread. I have all the necessary tools to fabricate the parts I needed to make and had no problem with notching the decklid to clear the OE 125 AMP alternator. A simple hole in the appropriate location of the TB adaptor plate was all that was needed for proper IAC function.

The camshaft is a simple fix, if you leave it in the full advance position you will obviously loose top end performance. My engine is turbocharged so I doubt there is any real significance anymore since forced induction is involved. I also mentioned at some point that the Delta cams will resize the traditional camshaft journals for use in the 3900 with the earlier timing sprocket and chain to completely eliminate the VVT from the engine. CNCguy on 60 degree is making camshaft bearing sleeves for another approach.

The LS4 swap thread has a better cleaner method of dealing with the returnless fuel rail which I kept except my hookup has an adjustable pressure regulator.
I used a remote oil filter adaptor to avoid any problems with the cradle. You may have to visit a machine shop for nipple thread compatibility.

I beleive it's an excellent swap option as long as you plan in advance and have the tools to pull it off. Sorry Joshua, I just can't sympathize much because I practically did the equivalent of 3 swaps at the same time; 3900, twin turbos and the 6 spd from scratch, so stop your whinning and make us proud.

The part solutions are there, just take your time and take a planned approach to avoid discouragement. I nearly quit on mine and put it up for sale because of a couple of bad sensors/modules that gave me a terrible time partly because some were bad when installed on the engine and didn't set a code to make detecting them easier. I'm glad I didn't.

Most of my issues are worked through. It just gets real tiring when nothing fits, even when you buy it specifically for your application. For the throttlebody I was thinking of cutting out the divider between the iac and the open hole. This would then allow me to run a hose from the vacuum port to the intake for idle air. The 3500 would have both holes to mount the external crank sensor. Running a stick shift would eliminate a lot of the other problems I've had but it sounds like cooguyfish wants to run an auto. I also made an A/C mount for a 95TDC compressor because it's compatible with my ecm and 884cyl a/c hoses except I found out too late that the fiero store doesn't supply these hoses anymore. There are a few cool things about this engine I like over the 3400 I had. The coolant hoses all exit out the front passenger side so they will all stay hidden. This isn't really possible with the 3400. The thing that keeps me trucking is knowing I have one of the strongest transmissions with a zzp 2500rpm torque converter and oil squirters on the pistons, so when I'm ready it should take boost pretty well. If I were to start at the begining though I would keep the stock computer with electronic throttle and the factory transmission.

I'm not determined to use an auto, I just happen to have an automatic car and I thought it might be easier to use a non electronically controlled auto and do an engine swap and then once that's working and I get a good feel for the car switch it over to the 5 spd. I do have an entire 5 spd parts car that I will be stealing everything off of.

So, I see your issues with the 3900 and am wondering if the 3500 would have the same ones? In other words, is the 3500 more like the 3400 or more like the 3900? I would have no problem with just using a 3400 and when I want more power I'll slap a turbo on, if the 3400 is that much easier of a swap that is.

What it comes down to is I'm looking to do the easiest swap possible and saw some good points about the 3400 and thought it would also be the same on the 3.5/9 engines.

So, I'm open to any of these engines, 3.4, 3.5, 3.9 whichever is easiest.

3400 is by far the easiest. It has the return style fuel rail. All the sensors are compatible so you can use an earlier computer, although I used a 2002 alero computer. You'll just have to fabricate a dogbone. The real downer is the cooling system was redesigned to eliminate the coolant leaking into the oil through the intake manifold gaskets on the 3500 and 3900. With what you have available though I would swap in a 5speed with the 3900. Should be quite a bit less stressful than my swap.

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: 3400 is by far the easiest. It has the return style fuel rail. All the sensors are compatible so you can use an earlier computer, although I used a 2002 alero computer. You'll just have to fabricate a dogbone. The real downer is the cooling system was redesigned to eliminate the coolant leaking into the oil through the intake manifold gaskets on the 3500 and 3900. With what you have available though I would swap in a 5speed with the 3900. Should be quite a bit less stressful than my swap.

Would the 3.5 or 3.9 be much harder or easier than the 3.4 if I did use a 5 spd? The reason I ask is because I found a 16K mile 3.5 for $300 and the cheapest 3.4's I can find are all over $500 and have 50K miles or more. Personally I'd rather just get a wrecked car and part it but right now I would just need an inexpensive engine.

Also, which year did you use?

I am also leaning towards using the 7730 ECM so if I can't do that with the 3.5 or 3.9 I will probably shun away from them for now and go 3.4 and then figure something else out later.

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: I'm not determined to use an auto, I just happen to have an automatic car and I thought it might be easier to use a non electronically controlled auto and do an engine swap and then once that's working and I get a good feel for the car switch it over to the 5 spd. I do have an entire 5 spd parts car that I will be stealing everything off of. So, I see your issues with the 3900 and am wondering if the 3500 would have the same ones? In other words, is the 3500 more like the 3400 or more like the 3900? I would have no problem with just using a 3400 and when I want more power I'll slap a turbo on, if the 3400 is that much easier of a swap that is. What it comes down to is I'm looking to do the easiest swap possible and saw some good points about the 3400 and thought it would also be the same on the 3.5/9 engines. So, I'm open to any of these engines, 3.4, 3.5, 3.9 whichever is easiest.

Make the decision based on what you want most, the 3.9 swap is on a different level than the others, the 3500 is the next powerfullest in line of descent of non VVT motors and the most popular among fwd forums and is only 3 or 4 readily available special parts different install wise than the 3400. I would suggest anyone doing an aluminum head engine swap spend some time on the 60 degree forum also.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Make the decision based on what you want most, the 3.9 swap is on a different level than the others, the 3500 is the next powerfullest in line of descent of non VVT motors and the most popular among fwd forums and is only 3 or 4 readily available special parts different install wise than the 3400. I would suggest anyone doing an aluminum head engine swap spend some time on the 60 degree forum also.

well, I don't mind doing another engine swap later, I just want something fairly straight forward, mostly to build up some confidence and actually get it done. I also don't need the most power in the world either, I know a 3400 with a turbo would be able to get enough power to make me happy. but if I can use a 2005 LX9 motor and it's not much harder than a 3400 than I would rather go that way since it sounds like it's a slightly better engine and I found one for $300 with 16K miles.

You can use the 7730 you'll just have to get the external crank trigger from 60degreev6. I would keep an eye out because it seems like he only stocks one because it goes out of stock once in a while. I'm pretty sure the other guy on the forum who did a 3500 managed to use a 3400 fuel rail. My last car was a 2002 3400 and this one is a 2006 3900.

i am the first to have the 3500 in a fiero. with the mods it has and not being tuned yet, it already feels faster than my 95 vette did. and that is scary since i flipped it doing 160. yea, im luck to be alive now. just read my signature to learn more about it. and search for topics and posts made by my brother, merlot566jka. he built the whole thing, he gets mad credit for it. dont expect support from either of us on this though. dont mean to sound like a dik, but he is in training in florida for the next 8 or so months. and i hardly know anything worth needing to know on this. so youll either get no reply or a "i dunno, my brother built it for me" response. it is down from the fun now because the 22 year old fuel pump is shot. im ordering a walbro 255 fri morning ooo i cant wait.

but i can say that if a 3500 is going to be used, its best to get one from a 04?-05?-06 malibu since they do not have a pully driven PS pump to get in the way and add to the confusion. and if the LX9 altenator is going to be used, it will need a 5v reference to trigger it to start charging. i can build ya one of those since i built the ones needed on the my setup. ok, so some questions can be answered by me. but as far as the install, coolant hose routing, motor mounts and the 7730 conversion go to be used with the motor, i have no idea on. oh, and the clutch, i know nothing about what one to use from what car, what engine/tranny combo or what yr. hope this gives you some insite on what you are in for.

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1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 07-28-2008).]

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: i am the first to have the 3500 in a fiero. with the mods it has and not being tuned yet, it already feels faster than my 95 vette did. and that is scary since i flipped it doing 160. yea, im luck to be alive now. just read my signature to learn more about it. and search for topics and posts made by my brother, merlot566jka. he built the whole thing, he gets mad credit for it. dont expect support from either of us on this though. dont mean to sound like a dik, but he is in training in florida for the next 8 or so months. and i hardly know anything worth needing to know on this. so youll either get no reply or a "i dunno, my brother built it for me" response. it is down from the fun now because the 22 year old fuel pump is shot. im ordering a walbro 255 fri morning ooo i cant wait.

Well, the big thing I wanted to know for right this moment I believe you already have covered for me, since you have an 06 LX9, I should be able to use an 05 LX9 which is what I want to do right now.

If you could tell me, did you use the 7730 ECM on your swap?

I re-read your sig, I guess you did use the 7730 ECM, is that what this part was for? "tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel"

[This message has been edited by cooguyfish (edited 07-28-2008).]

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: Well, the big thing I wanted to know for right this moment I believe you already have covered for me, since you have an 06 LX9, I should be able to use an 05 LX9 which is what I want to do right now. If you could tell me, did you use the 7730 ECM on your swap? I re-read your sig, I guess you did use the 7730 ECM, is that what this part was for? "tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel"

i added more to my post.

yes the 7730 was used. the tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel was for the DIS i believe. im pretty sure on that, but dont hold me to it.

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1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels

I'm in the process of completing my modified 3100 / 4t60E swap. The actual mounting process was very easy. With a stock (Fiero) 5-speed the swap would be cake walk. I wouldnt reccommend using the th125 auto with any of the Gen3 3X00 engines. You use a Fiero v6 front engine mount and braket. You then clearance the braket and oil pan to fit. It all bolts up like it was made to go together. Then you have to fab a custom dog-bone and clearance the decklid for the altenator.

The hardest part of the swap is the wiring. Either using the obd2 stuff or obd1 7730, you will have to do wiring. I'm about half way done with the 7730 ecm swap. I have all the pins swapped over, now I just got to eliminat some wires and splice in the different connectors. I need to get a wiring diagram first though. BTW, I have no way to control the 4t60E trans with this ecm. So I am going to use a sequence of micro-switches to control the shift solenoids. It has been done in a j-body sunbird and he has given me all the info I need. Screw the $1K tranny controller!

you can use a 9396 ecm from a 91-93 3.4TDC to run the 3.1 and 4t60e.

looks like i am the only one here with a full out LX9. yours look like hybrids im guessing?

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1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: you can use a 9396 ecm from a 91-93 3.4TDC to run the 3.1 and 4t60e.

Perhaps a variation of this same principle (provided you are referring to piggy-backing) can be used to properly control VVT function in conjunction with an OBD I ECM. The cam, crank and MAP sensor and maybe an rpm input may be all that's needed for basic function depending on what the algorythm for determining cam position requires. The PCM maybe programmed to read RPM from the crank trigger since it has to read it constantly anyway, that would be much more accurate and dependable than an ignition pulse. If the cam position is dependant primarily on engine rpm then codes for missing input might not have any effect on cam position being hindered as the rpm increases. The GM shop manual would be very helpful right now.

is there much of a difference between the 05 malibu engines and the pontiac G6 engine? that really cheap engine is out of a G6 and I was going to go ahead and purchase it today but I want to make sure that it's still a good engine to use.

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: is there much of a difference between the 05 malibu engines and the pontiac G6 engine? that really cheap engine is out of a G6 and I was going to go ahead and purchase it today but I want to make sure that it's still a good engine to use.

I paid that much and less for my first two; 7k miler from an 06 G6 and 0 miler from an 04 Malibu. Depends on who's got it and how much space they have for the new incomming stuff. The engines are basically the same and only differ by power steering pump which when removed may or may not require an additional idler pulley. I would however opt for the G6 engine as there are two different head part numbers that are probably associated with the earlier engines which also may have a cast crank instead of steel. Some were E85 compatible and that may account for a difference in the cylinder heads. The pair I removed from my 04 engine had a difference in the combustion chamber when compared to those posted by a member on the 60 degree forum.

the malibu 3500 is the only one that i know of that has a PS pump NOT on the pulley system. that is why merlot choose the 3500 from that car and none other.

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1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: the malibu 3500 is the only one that i know of that has a PS pump NOT on the pulley system. that is why merlot choose the 3500 from that car and none other.

The 3500 G6 has an electric steering rack, and from pictures of both of my engines side by side and the belt diagrams posted in my 3900 thread the only difference between a 3500 engine with a p/s pump and without, is the pump and belt. Scroll down; https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...2/HTML/084972-2.html otherwise the pulley system is the same.

ah yes, but easier to deal with since there is no ps pump to need to worry about the belts. but aleast there is a belt made for the absence of such thing so it would be easy to deal with if it was taken from another car. i guess jon didnt want to play around with finding whats needed. unless it is just a belt, then he must have skipped that in thought since he was in a rush to get it mobile again and out of our parents driveway because the were getting the house ready to sell.

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1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels

I got the fuel rail finished today. It was pretty easy actually. I added 2 lines to the passenger side of the fuel rail for supply and return and cut out the original supply line and looped the forward rail to the rear rail. It should be noted that the forward rail only had about 1/16 inch hole feeding it while the rear rail has a 3/8 line feeding it. Not sure why this was done but people might want to take that into consideration when adding power to their engines.

i dont know much about my fuel rail other than it has some 3800 sc II 36/32 # injectors and a 04 grandam 3400 FPR. i think. i think jon said he had to get around a returneless system that was on the car.

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1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels

ok, ill answer questions. what do u wanna know?

fuel rail, just use the 3400 rail and use the lines from a 3100 grand am, theyll hug back down behind the timing cover back to where you need them, ull understand once u have the motor, rails and lines in hand and see the bends and locations.

u need to do the 7730 swap. use darths pin outs. you must also modify his pinouts to accept the dis system, its not overly complicated, but u must have an understanding of how things work with the ecm and the wiring. i will not help anyone again with that! in the past, i tried to help, but i cant teach things thru txt on the net. it was frusterating for both of us

i suggest a manual trans. much easier to deal with in my opinion. plus you have gearing options...i dont know much more about the gearing, i just know its been done
use a neutral balanced flywheel from a 88 and new 60degree, clutch for a fiero, fiero trans....

as far as the belts, yes i chose the easiest way out. the belt routing is different for the malibu vs the other 3500's ive seen. had no issues with the belt

motor mounts, hard to describe, easy to fabricate. u need a welder

alt, mike explained that mess a little. the newer alt uses a 5v signal from the ecm to turn it on to start charging. without it, you get a dead batt.
must modify the decklid to get the alt to clear
have to modify the dogbone mount on the rear firewall and strut tower. i eventully cut the whole thing off.

have to modify a bolt hole on the engine to tranny. not hard. annoying find tho.

tb obviously has to be modified. i used a 4.3 70mm tb. rigged a linkage. made an adaptor plate.

must use the crank trigger wheel from tce. thats the only way to get the cps to see 7 pulses per rpm. the 3500 has a 50X or somthing stupid crank trigger setup. so an external to run the old dis system is a solid fix

have to modify small things like oil pan clearances

must have headers or fabricate exhaust using 2 sets of 3500 exhaust manifolds (one points straight down, so u need two sets to get the correct 2 manifolds)

dipstick tube is in a bad spot, i left it there

oil filler neck is in the same bad spot

gaskets for the 3500 are a gm part only

i have no emissions devices on the car

ops should be converted to the newer style

i recomend the heated o2 sensor

oh the fuel rail has to be turned around backwards too. forgot to mention that up top

coolant routing...eh thats tricky. see what you can come up with.

what else ya wanna know?

i wanna know when we are gonna get the title to me so i can register the car. kind of important dood.

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1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels

You don't need to do the 7730 swap. If you wanted you could use the stock computer and not have any issues with the vvt, alternator, heated O2 sensor or electronic throttle. The only thing you would need is to send the computer to pcmforless and have the auto trans codes deleted and vats disabled. I can't say enough that this is the way I wish I would have gone.

when the engine is modded...it becomes an issue hacking the new stuff.

plus my engine is NOT the vvt version. so my views may be different from others who are going with the vvt 3500/3900

i did this for a performance set up, not to have a different stock engine in a car. i like to improve and make things the way i like em. the 3500 was just a canvas...

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: You don't need to do the 7730 swap. If you wanted you could use the stock computer and not have any issues with the vvt, alternator, heated O2 sensor or electronic throttle. The only thing you would need is to send the computer to pcmforless and have the auto trans codes deleted and vats disabled. I can't say enough that this is the way I wish I would have gone.

I don't believe it's that simple with the newer PCMs joshua, it certainly is a lot more work than using the 730. The stock PCM for the 3500 VVT or not would likely require incorporation of the accelerator pedal for the electric throttlebody as well as the gauge cluster, radio and possibly the ignition switch. I checked out pcmforless and this statement stuck out:

Please note that we may not be able to remove VATS from the V6 cars. Feel free to contact us beforehand concerning this issue.

Having to add the gauge cluster, radio and gas pedal makes it far more complicated than using a well disassembled 730 ecm, it also adds to dependability problems since the newer cars often require much more sophisticated equipment to diagnose faults than the paper clip we can get away with using on the 730.

I'll contact them for more info in the event they are able to modify the PCM to get rid of a lot of the extras to make using the OE PCM easier.

They put up that warning because of me actually. I had sent back pcm's so often that I started sending 2 at a time but he got it figured out because right after he got it to run for me the fix was all over hptuners forum. As far as the gauges, at least on the 3400, all that stuff went through the bcm which wouldn't be needed. Archie, Darth and loyde have all used electronic throttle so it's far from impossible. The only real problem I had was A/C also went through the bcm. I chose to not run A/C but it could have been done if I was motivated enough. Not to mention all the tuning that will be required for the 7730 where a factory computer would need none. and not to be rude, but I don't need anyone to tell me about getting a mail order tune from Darth. I'm sure he's more than capable of tuning it, I'm just not buying that he can do it over email. I know people are going to do what they want and I'm not going to change it but they shouldn't be scared because of anti-theft and electronic throttle. If anyone does call pcmforless you should be able to give them my name and hopefully he has a file saved for what he did to my PCM on the 3400.

[This message has been edited by joshua riedl (edited 07-30-2008).]

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: They put up that warning because of me actually. I had sent back pcm's so often that I started sending 2 at a time but he got it figured out because right after he got it to run for me the fix was all over hptuners forum. As far as the gauges, at least on the 3400, all that stuff went through the bcm which wouldn't be needed. Archie, Darth and loyde have all used electronic throttle so it's far from impossible. The only real problem I had was A/C also went through the bcm. I chose to not run A/C but it could have been done if I was motivated enough. Not to mention all the tuning that will be required for the 7730 where a factory computer would need none. and not to be rude, but I don't need anyone to tell me about getting a mail order tune from Darth. I'm sure he's more than capable of tuning it, I'm just not buying that he can do it over email. I know people are going to do what they want and I'm not going to change it but they shouldn't be scared because of anti-theft and electronic throttle. If anyone does call pcmforless you should be able to give them my name and hopefully he has a file saved for what he did to my PCM on the 3400.

According to the email I just received from PCM forless, the individual that responded was not sure about some of the questions I asked regarding eliminating the need for the OE gauge cluster and BCM with the 3500/3900, but could turn off many of the necessary flags. I had no doubt they could eliminate torque management. Those of us who have the knowledge or the desire to have complete control over engine management realize it is limited if you have to send your PCM through the mail everytime you want to make a change. If you're running a stock motor, mail order with the stock PCM is probably the best way to go, but most of us are not doing that, and to some of us the tuning process is just as much a thrill as the build and it is only the stereotypical challenge alleged because by the time the engine is installed in the car it is often upgraded with porting, headers and a camshaft, in which case even if the OE PCM was used there would be a need for a good bit of tuning.

The 730 ecm has numerous accomplishments in swaps and is well known among swappers who do their own work and is seen as a reasonable substitute to the newer PCM and the potentially added wiring hassle.

Whether you send your PCM off or edit it yourself, it's tunning and the major difference is probably just the time involved to completion; yours, or someone elses. The trouble you ran into sending several PCMs in to solve a problem is an example of that.

There's very likely much more experience here dealing with the 730 ecm than the late design OE PCM for the newer V6 and that tends to have more influence on the choice in the same manner that many still choose the iron head 3.4L and naturally aspirated 3800 to the aluminum head V6 which from a glance shows a lot more potential with minor upgrades. The 3.4 and 3800 are more familiar and have been swapped more often so that's what members keep turning to.

It's just a matter of choice. I would need to have the appropriate tuning software in my possesion before I would attempt to swap to the stock PCM and I would certainly want A/C in which case who knows how tedious a process wiring in the BCM would be.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 07-30-2008).]

wow, well i dont have much to say about both of your talk, but as far as the AC goes i need to go get the hoses from the fiero to the lx9 compressor fit together and then replace the round cylinder thingy up front (the accumulator i think, i forget) to recharge my ac system. and i am also thinking that i need to get a new compressor since this one has been missing the plugs where the AC lines go into the compressor and it looks like it has got a significant amount of road grim to destroy a AC systems internal moving components. as far as the electrical goes, i bet its just fitting the wires to the right connectors. i dont know exactly on this since i havent bothered looking for the connectors or anything of that sort.

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1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels

quote Originally posted by merlot566jka: what else ya wanna know?

I already have the pins swapped and wires add for dis, what about the rest of the harness. You mind telling me what wires to get rid of and what wires to splice. I'm kinda stumped right now with the wiring. You wanna make a trip to Pensacola? Free beer and a couch to sleep on.


-Joseph

dood, jon, merlot my brother is stationed in pcola! he is at NAS.

did you ever hear about a 95 corvette, black, getting into a horrible wreck in evergreen al. oct 06? if you did, that was me. yea, i f'ed up.

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1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 07-31-2008).]