quote Originally posted by LT-5Fiero: ... I couldn't see any physical differences between the V5 compressor and the compressor on the V6s.

The V5 and HR6 compressors are totally different designs that use totally different control mechanisms. The V5 is a variable-displacement, continuous run compressor, while the HR6 is fixed displacement and relies upon clutch cycling to modulate low-side pressure.

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: How long would you like your AC to last? One of those kits might give you a working AC system that lasts for a couple of years - or (more likely) you'll have one that sorta works for a little while then suffers a catastrophic (and very expensive to repair) failure. You should come visit me one day soon - I can run a couple of tests on your AC system and find out where it's at now and what it would take to make it work reliably. It's quite likely that all it needs is a "whiff" of R12 to put it back into good operating condition. But if you want to convert to R134 - beware. The AC compressor in your car is NOT compatible with R134A - it's not designed to withstand the higher pressures generated in a 134 sytem and may self-destruct in short order. Also, the dessicant bag inside the accumulator is not compatible with 134; it'll "dissolve" and release the dessicant into the system - so if the higher pressure doesn't kill the compressor, the dessicant granules will do it in. Even if your car has a newer (compatible) accumulator and the AC compressor doesn't chew itself up - the R134 molecule is much smaller than the R12 molecule. It'll seep through the o-rings at the pipe connections and the walls of the hoses slowly and you'll need to recharge yearly - or replace those parts. Can you buy one of those Wal-Mart conversion kits, use it and have cold air come out of the vents? Yup. Will it last? Nope. If the AC system has major problems and you have to disconnect lines to replace components - then taking the extra steps to do a proper conversion to R134A would be appropriate. But if your system is intact and just needs to have the freon charge replenished then you're much better served by keeping the system on R12. It'd be cheaper (to do it right), work better, and last much, much longer. Years longer.

I will 2nd that, i blew mine up this summer doing this.. I lost my R12 contact so i went with 134 this year. it lasted 2 months before the compressor locked up.

I'm going to assume that you can get a new compressor from the local autozone if you swtich over, and it would be compatible with the 134. But that adds another 200+ minimum to the bill.

quote Originally posted by LT-5Fiero: Want ice coming out of the vents immediately? Do what I said, replace the orifice tube with an automatic adjusting one for extreme climates. .

Yes I want ice coming out the vents immediately, but I hate to sound like a total noob, but what exactly is an automatic adjusting orifice tube and where do I get one for the Fiero?

Look up Rock Auto. It is the 2 bottom options of orifice tubes. $20 for Standard adjusting and $47 for Severe Duty

quote Originally posted by Hudini: $47 for Severe Duty

Thanks, but can you explain in 50 words or less how it works?

lol, absolutely not. I did not know they even existed until about a month ago. Anyone?

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Thanks, but can you explain in 50 words or less how it works?

I could be wrong, but i do belive that is the 'compression/expansion' component that brings the pressure of the freon down rapidly, so that it gets cold. Its the quick reducion in pressure that cools the 'refrigerant' ( or any other fluid/gas for that matter, ever notice how the stuff that comes out of a hairspray can is colder then the can? ). Im going to assume its a different 'rate' then the R12 tube, which is why you want to replace it.

Without the 'expansion' you just pump freon around the system at the same pressure, and you dont get any cooling effect.


Of course i could be totally wrong too...

Hmmmm, learn something new everyday. I have replaced over 100 orifices and I never knew there was an adjustable one. I know the early fords had an adjustable low press. switch, but that is it. I have had quite a few GM systems not quite performing the way they should, mostly late 90's. I think this might be the ticket. Do you think O'Reilly's would carry it? We do most of our business with them, that is why I ask, plus I think the delivery chick is H-O-T.

------------------
carpe diem

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: The V5 and HR6 compressors are totally different designs that use totally different control mechanisms. The V5 is a variable-displacement, continuous run compressor, while the HR6 is fixed displacement and relies upon clutch cycling to modulate low-side pressure.

I will have to go back and double-check, but I recall there being no difference in the cycling/pressure switches between the V5 and HR6. Internally they are very different, which is why I brought it up, to suggest an avenue to investigate. Take two Fieros, one with the V5 and the other with the HR6. Replace the control valve and the pressure switch on the V5 and do the normal conversion and with the HR6, replace the pressure switch and do the normal conversion. Then check the vent temperature, see who reaches 40-degrees first. Who knows, you might find yourself no longer stuck thinking in the box and I see that with some people here just now finding out about adjusting orifice tubes.

Theories are just that, until someone finally has the gall to turn it into practice and find out the truth.

quote Originally posted by LT-5Fiero: I will have to go back and double-check, but I recall there being no difference in the cycling/pressure switches between the V5 and HR6.

Please do check. The GM/Helm FSM has complete information. The V5 control system is very different from the DA6/HR6 control system, and there is a reason for it. The V5 system does not even have a cycling/pressure switch. (The V5 system does have a low pressure cutoff switch, but it is a safety switch not involved in normal system operation.)

quote Who knows, you might find yourself no longer stuck thinking in the box ...

What box? Correct vs. incorrect information? Fact vs. opinion? We are not concerned with inventing a new A/C system for the Fiero here, we are discussing how the OEM systems work ... and that's a well-defined box. "Thinking outside of the box" can be a useful creative tool, but sometimes it just means that you don't understand the box.

quote Theories are just that, until someone finally has the gall to turn it into practice and find out the truth.

????? I haven't proposed any theory here, simply presented facts to refute incorrect information. Of course, you are free to experiment all you want ... within the limits of the law and EPA regulations. I do it all the time. But experiments of this kind require an understanding of the fundamental physics involved, clear thinking and diligence in designing and conducting the experiments, honesty, and absolute integrity in evaluating and reporting the results.

(Anyone want to try converting the Fiero A/C system to use R-718? )

I believe jscott1 when he reports that he has successfully converted a Fiero A/C system to R134a using a kit from Wal Mart, but I'm not confident that everyone would experience the same outcome ... and having wrong information posted here on PFF doesn't help.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 07-23-2007).]

quote Originally posted by gasmasher: My '05 Magnum blows very cold air even in the GA humidity. I think the humidity today was somewhere around 350% and it only took a few minutes to bring the cabin from 110 to 65.

My 05 Magnum finally got to what I could call cold (meaning i had to turn fan off high). It took a 4 hour drive on the interstate though with OAT of 80* . When its 90* out, driving around town It will get to maybe 75* on full. Its not really a big problem because I like warm weather anyway. I usually drive with the windows down. Tne vette has auto temp control set on 70* and it never slows the fan speed (meaning it never gets below 70-75*). It did slow down progressively with R12.

* im guessing the humidity was a slight exaggeration... . Didnt know humidity could be more than 100% (or the most water the air could hold).

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-23-2007).]

When I bought my 88 fiero 4 years ago - the guy that I got it from said the A/C was working until recently - and that
a "tube" underneath sprung a leak - which he tried to fix - but was unsucessful.
From this - a couple questions I guess-
- What "tube" is he talking about? Are there replacements available?
- By not running the A/C for over four years - is everything now junk?? and have to be replaced??

Any help would be appreciated-
Thanks,
EMForce.

I used the Conversion kit sold by napa with great success, and very cold air my wife who usualy cant cool off turned the a/c to 1 on a 95 degree day because she was cold it works well even on 105 days. Roger

I know this has been discussed a lot but I want to hear from someone that was in my situation and tried the R134. My situation is this, The airconditioner in my '85 Fiero GT blows air that is not cold. I don't know what kind of refrigerant is in it since I am not the original owner. If I go buy one of the kits from Walmart or where ever that has the special seal lubricating oil (ester oil?) that is supposed to soften the seals a bit and seal minor leaks, and uses the R134 refrigerant, will I ruin something? Do I need to buy the orifice tube some on this forum were discussing? What is the odds for success? Do I need to get it vacuumed out of whatever is in there before adding the R134? I will not spend a ton a money to get it rebiuilt. I'll just roll down the window rather than go crazy spending money on it. Opinions???? Don

if you mess with a/c...dont be cheap. replace it all ONCE! i know people who have swapped this and that only to have another part fail then you have to start alllll over. when i did my 87 gt, i bought a new(rebuilt) compressor,new condensor,new accumulator and the orifice tube. i completely flushed the system, then installed all the parts and had it vacuumed and then charged with r134a. driven in NC summers, i get 35-40* temps blowing out at me and everyone here knows that with a fiero,as small as they are,when the a/c is working, you can hang meat in the damn thing!!

------------------
Keith
Topsail Beach,NC
86&87 Fiero GT
86&96 Corvette
04 Harley Davidson Softail
73 Lotus Europa Twin Cam
86 Lotus Turbo Esprit

"He who dies with the most toys wins!!!"

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Yes I want ice coming out the vents immediately, but I hate to sound like a total noob, but what exactly is an automatic adjusting orifice tube and where do I get one for the Fiero?

I've never heard of an automatic adjusting orifice tube. Since pressure and temperature in the AC system are directly related, you just set the evaporator pressure at whatever gives you the temperature you want. The only way for the temp to change is for the pressure to change, and that can only happen if there's a leak or if the compressor output changes. Maybe the adjustable tube compensates for those pressure differences like a pressure regulator valve on an air tank?

I know it sounds good, but you don't want, and can't get ice coming out the vents. Set your evap temp to be about 35° minimum. Any lower and you risk icing up the evaporator.

anybody done the wallmart/napa (insert pars store you prefer here) retrofit kit on any 86's? Im reading the 87+ it may work on, but I'm just wondering if anybody has done any older fiero's ? Mine is the Charge at start of year and then recharge next year one ( slow leak) it works through summer but needs recharge every year.


CLok

I've never had air conditioning at home and I've never had air conditioning in a car before. Suffice to say I know NOTHING about air conditioning.

I recently bought an '86 GT with air. This car has been sitting for six years. I was surprised when I turned on the air conditioning and it actually blows cold air. However, the compressor (or whatever is doing it) will constantly cycle on and off every few seconds if the air is left on. Except for a couple of weeks a year, air conditioning really isn’t necessary here, but what might it take to get this functioning properly? Could it be something as relatively “simple” as topping off the refrigerant (if I knew which one of the two is in there now)?

When you change from 12 to 134 don't you change the fill connector? I thought that was the way to tell which refrigerant you had in it.

My Formula still blows cold but if it ever quits I am going to try the conversion kit. Heck if it locks the compressor I will be no worse off if I did the whole conversion anyway.

------------------
88 Fiero Formula V6 auto
99 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R
99 Nissan Sentra 1.6L 5speed

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I've never had air conditioning at home and I've never had air conditioning in a car before. Suffice to say I know NOTHING about air conditioning. I recently bought an '86 GT with air. This car has been sitting for six years. I was surprised when I turned on the air conditioning and it actually blows cold air. However, the compressor (or whatever is doing it) will constantly cycle on and off every few seconds if the air is left on. Except for a couple of weeks a year, air conditioning really isn’t necessary here, but what might it take to get this functioning properly? Could it be something as relatively “simple” as topping off the refrigerant (if I knew which one of the two is in there now)?

Rapid cycling is a hallmark symptom of low refrigerant. Top it off with what's in it already, should be R12 unless it's had the 134A retrofit fittings installed. To properly top it off requires guages to check high and low side pressure as well as a chart with temps and humidity and a way to measure temp across the evap core. However, if you don't mind not being as efficient as possible you can meter refrigerant in until the temp at the vent drops the most.

JazzMan

I just did my 86 GT and my 87 coupe.

Both with the Interdynamics kit from Walmart. The kit comes with retrofit fittings, oil and refrigerant. It has a DVD for those that are unfamiliar with A/C. It is very easy to do and works great. Ice cold A/C in both cars.

The 86 was sitting for 5 years with the system open befor I got it. The 87 worked but was low on refrigerant. I evacuated the remaining R12 from the 87 and recharged with 134A. The 86 I went ahead and repalced the seals, orifice tube, flushed the lines and recharged.

Both are working good.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Rapid cycling is a hallmark symptom of low refrigerant. Top it off with what's in it already, should be R12 unless it's had the 134A retrofit fittings installed. To properly top it off requires guages to check high and low side pressure as well as a chart with temps and humidity and a way to measure temp across the evap core. However, if you don't mind not being as efficient as possible you can meter refrigerant in until the temp at the vent drops the most.

JazzMan, is there anything about these cars you don't know about?

Thanks for the info. A lot of what you've stated is all Greek to me, but that's only because I know nothing about air conditioning and/or the servicing of it. In regards to being "as efficient as possible", with something like air conditioning which I'd only use once in a blue moon, I like the idea of not having to use charts and gauges, etc when setting it up. Perhaps I'll do a little research so that I can further understand what you were telling me. Thanks again.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-27-2008).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: If you walk in an a/c shop with a 20 year old car and tell them to fix your a/c you will hear "$CHA-CHING" as they rack up a bill for well over $1,000 and all they basically do is screw on the fittings and fill the system with R-134a

Walk into an A/C shop with a 4 year old car and they hear the same $CHA-CHING as they will NOT let you leave without spending $1000.00 at least. I have never seen a car ac repair cost less than $1000.00 be it a 20 year old car or a 4 year old car.

recent GM cars have leaky condensers that die in 3.22 years or 40,000 miles right after the warranty runs out. magically it costs $1000.00 to replace and repair that failure. Strangely I have yet to ride in a 4-10 year old GM car or truck that has had working AC or did not have the AC repaired recently.

I don't know what the Wal*Mart kit looks like (or costs), but is This basically what a person should be looking for IF they wish to do the conversion rather than simply top up the R12?

... $49.95

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-25-2008).]

Same contents different packaging.

quote Originally posted by RCW: Same contents different packaging.

How does the Wal*Mart price compare with the $49.95 cost of the eBay item I posted above?

Don't recall exactly how much the kit from Walmart was. Sounds about right though.

The Interdynamics web site shows quite a few dealers. K-Mart, Fred Meyer, O'Reilly, PepBoys, Schucks CSK, Kragen, Target and the list goes on.

I liked this kit because it had a gauge. Didn't even have to get out the big set.

quote Originally posted by RCW: WOA! I just looked at the link. What the heck is "MAXI FRIG 12a" ? Not to sure what this is but it is not R134A. I retract my previous statement that it is the same contents. NOT Buyer beware.

Ah you see, this is why I thought I'd better ask a few questions.

It turns out this stuff is technically illegal. It's a flammable refrigerant.

The company's website is Here. Probably best to avoid this stuff.

RCW, thanks for waving the red flag!

Maxi-Frig is just another iteration of the same old, flammable, illegal hydrocarbon (primarily propane and butane) blends being sold as "drop-in" replacements for R-12. Yes, the HC blends will work technically, but they're still illegal, and no legitimate shop will touch a system that has (or has had) HC refrigerants in it. The current marketing of these HC blends exploits a loophole in the EPA regulations: it's illegal to replace R-12 with a HC refrigerant, but there's no such prohibition against replacing R-134a with HC ... so you just have to convert your R-12 system to R-134a (nudge, nudge ... wink, wink) and then add Maxi-Frig ... but it's still illegal to have HC refrigerant in your A/C system.

On the other hand, if you do your own work, it's your car and your decision. Just hope you don't have a front-end collision sometime.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 06-26-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Ah you see, this is why I thought I'd better ask a few questions. It turns out this stuff is technically illegal. It's a flammable refrigerant. The company's website is Here. Probably best to avoid this stuff. RCW, thanks for waving the red flag!

Actually perfectly legal in Canada and only outlawed in 18 of the 50 US States.
edit: as mentioned above, only legal in US to replace R134a .

Also known as BBQ 12a.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 06-26-2008).]

quote Originally posted by spark1: Also known as BBQ 12a.

.....

so if i have a 3800 series II with ac compresser, what should i do? should i look into a new acumulator from a newer car, and do 134, or should i maybe try to sneak in r12 to this system, im in northern illinois but i have no tolerance for heat lol and would like a cold cold cold system

A new accumulator for a Fiero is the correct choice for an R-12 to R-134a conversion. Any accumulator you buy today will contain a desiccant bag compatible with either R-12 or R-134a. While you're at it, you should blow another $3 and replace the orifice tube too.

but what if i want to run r12 in a 134 system (compressor) and just replace some O-rings and oil. and prolly an acumulator just to keep things running?

Go here, they are pretty reasonable price wise. http://www.ackits.com/.

Also found this item on ebay. Ebay item number 190109964259. Everything for 24.95 plus $10.00 shipping.
Accumulator, orifice tube, HP switch and o-rings. Not Bad

quote Originally posted by vamper: but what if i want to run r12 in a 134 system (compressor) and just replace some O-rings and oil. and prolly an acumulator just to keep things running?

But why on Earth would you want to retrofit an R-134a system to R-12? I think the choices boil down to: Do it right, or do it over.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

While we're on the subject of alternative refrigerants, here is a link to a relevant page on the EPA web site, and three quotes concerning alternative refrigerants submitted for EPA approval::

"acceptable ... : May be used in any car or truck air conditioning system, provided the technician meets the conditions described above."

"unacceptable: Illegal to use as a substitute for CFC-12 in motor vehicle air conditioners."

"not submitted: Illegal to use or sell as a substitute for CFC-12 in motor vehicle air conditioning systems." (emphasis in original)

Note the use of the word illegal with respect to unacceptable or untested alternative refrigerants.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 06-26-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: But why on Earth would you want to retrofit an R-134a system to R-12? I think the choices boil down to: Do it right, or do it over.

cold cold air, the only time i feel cold air is if its night and the temp drops to about 70 something
thats in a 2008 chevy truck. a 2004 chevy truck. and a 2003 chevy suburban, all the air is cool, not cold

[This message has been edited by vamper (edited 06-26-2008).]

quote Originally posted by vamper: cold cold air, the only time i feel cold air is if its night and the temp drops to about 70 something

Do you still run air conditioning when the ambient temperature is 70F degrees?