I'll be tearing down my N* engine within a few months, and anticipate taking care of the headbolt threads in the block BEFORE they ever become a problem. I've long heard never to use Helicoil inserts in aluminum, so the only other alternative I learned about was Timeserts. ("Will" has a lot of good posts in here about Northstars.) However, I recently stumbled across a product available on eBay (link below). It looks impressive, but I haven't heard anyone speak about it ... and yes, I did use the "search" function. My question to you N* builders is if any of you have had any experience with this product, or know someone who has?
Thanks in advance ... <Ken>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&item=150012181219&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

It looks like a good kit... very similar to the timeserts... But, the question is - do you want to risk having to redo your headgaskets if they don't hold? Timeserts have a 99% success rate. These things are too new to really know for sure...

And they are the same price as the Timesert kits, so WHY bother?

JG

When in doubt Timeserts are the way to go ..I've done several N* sert jobs this past year and the customers, including myself have had no problems ..they make the N* worry free

I took a look at the sert posted in the auction and its different then Time Serts in that it doesn't appear to have a step or flange at the top to prevent the insert from going further into the hole or self-position itself as it were. Th Time Sert does. Also, it doesn't look like the threads at the bottom are cold rolled to "lock it in when tightened , like the time sert does

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 07-24-2006).]

I think you guys missed the point. It was the TIMESERTS that failed on his car ... and in the eBay auction, he says this tactfully, without specifically mentioning the brand name "Timeserts" ... so he has developed something better. Apparently, he has had a few of his kits installed by mechanics working on Northstars with failed Timeserts.

[This message has been edited by WAWUZAT (edited 07-24-2006).]

I have only heard of one case of a failed timesert. It's impossible to tell whether it was an "installer error" or a part/block failure. In any case, there are hundreds of successful timesert installations on the major boards. The helicoil failures he mentions are a given, they weren't made for those kind of loads.

So in short, buy what you want. But realize these have no record - so even if he has a 100% success rate on his 10 kits he's sold... that's statistically insignificant compared to the 99% success of the thousands TS has sold.

In engineering things, you want something that has a known track record and history. Inventing new things gets scary because you can't always anticipate problems (in this case, surface finish, metallurgy, etc..). My 2 cents.

quote Originally posted by WAWUZAT: I think you guys missed the point. It was the TIMESERTS that failed on his car ... and in the eBay auction, he says this tactfully, without specifically mentioning the brand name "Timeserts" ... so he has developed something better. Apparently, he has had a few of his kits installed by mechanics working on Northstars with failed Timeserts.

"find out it had been repaired once before with Coil type and GM approved Solid type inserts with Synchronized internal and external threads"

sounds to me like someone used a combination of helicoils and perhaps timeserts on his engine during the repair ..most likely the helicoils failed and put extra stress on the remaining timeserts.....I wonder how many miles were put on the Northstar before they failed

Well, I made contact with the insert seller, and sent him a link to this thread. He replied with the following message, copied below. Draw your own conclusions. As for me? I'm gonna get his kit.


Hi Ken - I have been watching the Fiero forum that you sent me to and have been reading about time-serts being very reliable (and to be fair to Time-sert, most of the time they probably are). Below I cut and pasted two questions that I received from cadillac techs. I have sold [quantity deleted] kits so far (not all through ebay) and have 2 garages that are multiple buyers of inserts. Hope this helps with any confusion. - Norm

"i was wondering how u charge for extra inserts after the purchase of a kit? im a tech at a cadi dealer in ill. we would probably be a good volume buyer, been having some bad luck with the time serts lately, come backs suck."

"hi i am a mechanic at a cadillac dealership in which i install alot of inserts,i have seen inserts that other techs have installed & have stripped as you said & i have always said that they have 2 problems the inserts are cheap cast & should be made of steel because i have had them break installing them every once in a great while & also the thread pitch was not wide enough or deeep to grab much aluminum then i saw your ad on ebay & said that s.o.b. stole my idea,so i was wondering if you sell just the inserts with out buying the whole kit everytime thanks "

Ummm.... Timeserts are made out of steel. Cold rolled C12L14 steel.

I would be interested in the outer thread specs. That would be a deciding factor in whether they're better than timeserts or not.

Ask him. He's relisted his kit at this link ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&item=150016419966&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

I wouldn't be against using his version of inserts if they were in front of me ..it just another way of fixing a problem that shouldn't have been there in the first place

quote Originally posted by WAWUZAT: As for me? I'm gonna get his kit.

Please let us know what you think of the kit after you get it. I've seen that kit a few months ago, and considered getting it when I tear down our N*.

I could post what I think about the insert kit, but I can't provide a comparison to the Timesert kits 'cause I've never held one in my hand. That's where I'm more dependent on the opinions of those GM techs who've used both, and can provide a comparison opinion.

One tech said "come backs suck" .... well, I think having to teardown my own motor a second time would really suck since I ain't gettin' paid to do it. I want to put it together one time ... with peace of mind ... and not worry about it for another 150K miles.

[This message has been edited by WAWUZAT (edited 01-15-2007).]

FWIW, I bought the (non-Timesert) insert kit through eBay. The seller keeps one listed there almost always, and his feedback is terrific ... 100%. I'm looking forward to getting around to installing these puppies.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Ummm.... Timeserts are made out of steel. Cold rolled C12L14 steel. I would be interested in the outer thread specs. That would be a deciding factor in whether they're better than timeserts or not.

Ryan - The following was copied from another thread ...

Hello Will
I Have been at the Caddy dealer for the last 3 years. I had always though that caddy's were a little junkie. The door panels pulled, loose the motors leaked oil, trans leaked, Intake manifolds leaked, The oil filter was on the top, they had a throttle body and when they changed to MPI they still used the same style center mount T-body. Over the past 3 years I have learned that is all in the past. It ended in the early 90's.

From 96 to 99 common engine issues are the following.
The lower half leaks oil at the case halves and oil pan -- fix-- Do Not Use Gaskets--- New TriBond Sealer. Rear main seal leaks.
New seal has Metal sleeve that is pressed on to the crank with a special tool.
The ring are a low tension ring that allows the oil to get on to the top of the piston and this causes carbon build up--- Perfect Circle designed a second ring to help control this issue.
The Head bolts pull the treads out of the block-- time serts only work some times in these blocks --- the threads need to be cleaned and inspected completely-- inspect for pitting after cleaning out the thread locker--- if any pitting is found in the thread area it usually means that the block will not hold a time sert--- when drilling out the block if the material is grey and or powdery the factory time sert will not hold-- Either the thread locker has broke down the blocks or the aluminum quality was not that good---- old thread locker will bind up the threads and break then out--- I would say 50% of the blocks can not use TIMESERT time serts. GM has short blocks available for this problem or use NS300L inserts
The cams go flat--- if any circle markings are found on the lifters the cam is bad-- the circles range from 1/16 inch to about 9/16 is typical-- another sign of the cam wear is in the cam/valve covers-- it looks like casting sand and is built up on the lower sides-- when the valve covers were new the were smooth on the inside-- you can find this in the chain area of the cam cover also-- it does not wash off, but it will flake off sometimes.
The only way to fix the last two issues "block and heads" is to go with a 2000+ setup

2000+
Oil leak like previous years-- FWD RTV Sealant Procedure with Current Oil Distribution Plate TSB #03-06-01-027 - (10/06/2003)
rear main seal update Engine Oil Leak at Crankshaft Rear Main Oil Seal (Install Revised Crankshaft Rear Main Oil Seal Using Revised Rear Main Seal Installer) #05-06-01-019D - (05/12/2006)
The ring issues-- the new rings work better, but the also redesigned the pistons ---Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Replace Pistons) #03-06-01-025 - (09/02/2003
misc engine info----Information on Northstar Engine Mechanical Repairs #04-06-01-032 - (10/27/2004)

I have replaced the pistons in well over 100 engines for 2000+ and have only install 3 time serts --- I have never seen any pitting in the threads and when I drilled out the aluminum it was bright and shiny. I have never seen a bottom end fail with the exception of ingesting water "flood" or from this TSB Higher Than Expected Oil Consumption (Clean Piston Rings) #02-06-01-009C and we had a maintenance package that we performed a carbon treatment. We stopped doing it because the younger guys bent rods.

Here's a link to that thread ...
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...2/HTML/044924-8.html

Have you installed the inserts yet? I'm curious about how that went and how your engine is doing. How are they secured once installed?

For the record, Time also makes a "big-sert" that is basically the same as what this guy is selling.

Either way, some blocks may be bad enough to require drilling the hole further out to get "clean" aluminum for the tap to cut when installing the inserts.
I'm curious about the OD of these, because there isn't much OD clearance in the head bolt holes around normal timeserts and I imagine there's even less around big-serts. I wouldn't want to drill those holes out very far since they're under pretty high compressive loads from the bolts. Wait... the second auction says that the drill he includes in his kit is the same diameter as the head bolt hole and doesn't require an alignment bushing. Hmm... Can't be much more to those threads than there is to the basic timeserts, then.

BTW, N* head bolts are NOT torque to yield. What he says about not reusing them because they're stretched isn't correct. Their replacement is advised because they ship with a micro-encapsulated thread lube/locker on the threads. As you tighten the bolt, the capsules burst and lubricate the threads. Once the engine heat cycles a few times, the lubricant cures into a thread locker. Pretty slick. Reuse is not advised because this thread lube/locker can't be reused. New bolts are available with new head gaskets and have the locker pre-applied.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-14-2007).]

Still have only heard of one timesert failure...

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Ummm.... Timeserts are made out of steel. Cold rolled C12L14 steel. I would be interested in the outer thread specs. That would be a deciding factor in whether they're better than timeserts or not.

I don't think so. Not even close. Timeserts that are used by GM are made of Powder Metal "synergies".

http://timesert.com/html/faq.html#2

I have seen so many time serts failed in 96-99 blocks that I have no idea of the countless blocks that have been thrown out. The time sert is only making the bolt an 11mm instead of a 10mm. The timesert insert that we use are powder metal and break very easy. I contacted Norm and got all the information from him and then talked it over with my service director. We had just lost two jobs because the timeserts pulled out of the junk block when they were installed. he think this will help us out and keep are customers happy. The cost is alot higher. We have not had any 96-99 that have pulled out in awhile. Just look at the depth of the threads. They are more like a pipe thread.

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: I have seen so many time serts failed in 96-99 blocks that I have no idea of the countless blocks that have been thrown out. The time sert is only making the bolt an 11mm instead of a 10mm. The timesert insert that we use are powder metal and break very easy. I contacted Norm and got all the information from him and then talked it over with my service director. We had just lost two jobs because the timeserts pulled out of the junk block when they were installed. he think this will help us out and keep are customers happy. The cost is alot higher. We have not had any 96-99 that have pulled out in awhile. Just look at the depth of the threads. They are more like a pipe thread.

as Will mentioned, the bigserts use a larger outer thread. I've searched for a bit, and can't find any mention of the standard (or bigsert) outer thread or tap specs. 11-1.5mm is the head bolt thread.

Timeserts make 11mm head bolts into 11mm STI (screw thread insert) head bolts. They use the same tap as heli-coils... 11x1.5 STI.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-15-2007).]

The Timesert kit That I have used is J 42385-500 and states that the Thread size is M11 x 1.5 x 30mm and this would make them 12mm when finished. Timeserts will unscrew with the head bolt a lot of times. The head Bolts have thread locker on them and the Timesert has red lock tight.
TSB #04-06-01-032 Information on Northstar Engine Mechanical Repairs

quote Originally posted by Will: Have you installed the inserts yet? I'm curious about how that went and how your engine is doing. How are they secured once installed?

Will -- My N* is still sitting on a furniture moving dolly, covered with an old bedsheet. I haven't even begun disassembly ... heck, I haven't even separated the engine from the 4T80E transaxle ... but that should change within the next 2 or 3 weeks. Clearing out my radius-rod stuff from the garage so I'll have room for the hoist, engine stand, and working area. I spent most of 2006 building Landyot Radius-Rods for Ford Excursions. Recently completed the 2006 batch of rods, and will probably not build more of those until 2008. <Ken>

[This message has been edited by WAWUZAT (edited 01-15-2007).]

Actually there are three sizes of timeserts. When doing a block I found it had been helicoiled before and the regular timeserts did not have enough thread to hold into the block. I broke several while torqueing the head. I talked with an engineer from GM power train and he told me the scoop on timeserts and sent me some of the mid sized timeserts to repair my block.

------------------

Signature courtesy of MinnGreen.

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: The Timesert kit That I have used is J 42385-500 and states that the Thread size is M11 x 1.5 x 30mm and this would make them 12mm when finished. Timeserts will unscrew with the head bolt a lot of times. The head Bolts have thread locker on them and the Timesert has red lock tight. TSB #04-06-01-032 Information on Northstar Engine Mechanical Repairs

Then use maximum strength retaining compound.

I do not recommend using Timeserts in 99 and prior blocks. They do not hold. The aluminum grade quality is not very good or they break down over time. You should never remove good threads in a block just to make them over sized. I have seen red lock tight etch aluminum were it had ran down the side and looked like a crack. Norm's thread inserts are the only type that I would recommend in 99 and prior blocks. You can find them on E-bay the NS300L. We fear every time that we have to do a head gasket in a car that has been apart before that it may have timeserts. This is pretty much a one time band aid.

quote Originally posted by Will: Now waitaminnit... three sizes? www.timesert.com only lists two. Are you sure he wasn't talking about these other inserts?

Yup three sizes. I asked him about timesert selling only the two sizes also. He had a number for the medium size but it wasn't listed under the caddy stuff. the medium size used a different drill and ap but the same installer and jigs.

Have any of you installed studs in lieu of using headbolts? I plan on installing Norm's NS300L inserts (already have them here), but I'd like to see if I can locate a commercially available stud kit, preferably ARP. And no, I haven't looked/searched for a stud kit at all ... yet. Likewise, I'd like to find a stud kit for the bottom end, too.

yeah i think a stud kit would be a great idea too, wonder if there's anything available?

There's nothing available for the bottom end, to my knowledge. I don't think the bottom end needs it, though.

But ARP has a head stud kit for waterpumper VW's that fits the Northstar. I don't have the part number in front of me, but obviously one Northstar takes two kits. They are about $100/kit through Summit.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-16-2007).]

I do not recommend using studs. Do not use ant surface conditioning disc on this engine. On the top of the sleaves you will find a sharpe ridge. DO NOT REMOVE IT!!!!!! I have work in machine shops in the late 80's and we cut aluminum at twice the speed of iron. This means the RA was twice as course on the aluminum. Technology has changed and now aluminum is cut smoother than steel because it moves around so much as it goes through its heat cycle. As aluminum expands it moves around on the gasket and it will expand against the head bolts. The head bolts give and strech with the expansion. The head bolts do not fail. It is always the block and you are doing the best thing possible with Norm's inserts. If it was Iron on Iron or even aluminum head on and Iron block studs would be good.

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: I do not recommend using studs. Do not use ant surface conditioning disc on this engine. On the top of the sleaves you will find a sharpe ridge. DO NOT REMOVE IT!!!!!! I have work in machine shops in the late 80's and we cut aluminum at twice the speed of iron. This means the RA was twice as course on the aluminum. Technology has changed and now aluminum is cut smoother than steel because it moves around so much as it goes through its heat cycle. As aluminum expands it moves around on the gasket and it will expand against the head bolts. The head bolts give and strech with the expansion. The head bolts do not fail. It is always the block and you are doing the best thing possible with Norm's inserts. If it was Iron on Iron or even aluminum head on and Iron block studs would be good.

Not getting why this means you shouldn't use studs.

The Main bolts break off some time when we remove them. They are hard and snap. The head bolts have a spring to them, but need to crack loose. They pop when the threads are go and don't when we must Timesert them. After doing about ten in a short time you can tell the sound they make when the treads come out with the bolt. The mains don't turn very far before they break free, but the head bolts do. I bet most of the time I can turn a head bolt 20 to 30 DEG and up to 60 DEG.

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: The Main bolts break off some time when we remove them. They are hard and snap. The head bolts have a spring to them, but need to crack loose. They pop when the threads are go and don't when we must Timesert them. After doing about ten in a short time you can tell the sound they make when the treads come out with the bolt. The mains don't turn very far before they break free, but the head bolts do. I bet most of the time I can turn a head bolt 20 to 30 DEG and up to 60 DEG.

I still dont see what your trying to say here. I was thinking useing headstuds would be a great idea because then you dont have to undo the bolt from the block, you just have to take the nut off the top of the stud. It would eliminate the possibility of haveing the threads in the block come out with the bolt.

I've noticed CHRF uses head studs on many of their high HP northstars. I don't see a separate listing on their price list for them, but I'm sure Allen would be glad to set you up with a set, as well as his recomendation as to their worth in your application.

Russ544