Well I've been auto-xing lately. Beating the hell out of my good condition basically stock 2.8

I know these motors don't like high rpm (5500) but on most of the tracks there are sections where I top out first or second gear about 30 feet from where I am to slow down again for a corner. So shifting up would be pointless as I would loose time and just need to shift down again through the corner causing all sorts of traction issues. I routinely get the car in the 5000rpm range, and occasionally sustained in the 5000-5400rpm range for a few seconds at a time. Even the occasional bounce off the rev limiter.

Anyways, I know that this is not good for the motor, but for what I do it's a requirement. I am prepared to live with the consequences when it does blow, but what kind of upgrades can I do that will help improve the longetivity of the motor?

The reason they dont like high RPM has nothing to do with their ability to survie it. The stock intake simply cannot flow enough air to keep the A/F mix from going way too rich above 4,500 rpm. WIth one of our intakes, I have had mine to 7k without breaking it. I try to keep it under 6.5k when I play around. Our intake customers will attest to the 2.8 and 3.4 being able to handle more than 5k rpm and make good power up there too, but if you dont let it breath it's just not worth going above 4.5k since the power drop off is unreal. You can see some dyno info on that topic at trueleo.com.
Hopefully your race class allows for intake changes.

quote Originally posted by Francis T: The reason they dont like high RPM has nothing to do with their ability to survie it. The stock intake simply cannot flow enough air to keep the A/F mix from going way too rich above 4,500 rpm. WIth one of our intakes, I have had mine to 7k without breaking it. I try to keep it under 6.5k when I play around. Our intake customers will attest to the 2.8 and 3.4 being able to handle more than 5k rpm and make good power up there too, but if you dont let it breath it's just not worth going above 4.5k since the power drop off is unreal. You can see some dyno info on that topic at trueleo.com. Hopefully your race class allows for intake changes.

I've got 2 "prep points" left to be used in my current class. Changing intake or injectors would use up those two points and I would have to use a stock TB.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. I do the same thing when I autocross. Just keep it well maintained and it should be alright. I'd be more worried about low oil level causing the pump to starve around corners. I've seen that happen a couple times on my car.

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'88 Fiero GT - 3.4L GM Crate engine
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/707857
'91 GMC Syclone - #449
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2067330
'02 Yamaha V-Max - it go fast

quote Originally posted by Zewerr: I wouldn't worry about it too much. I do the same thing when I autocross. Just keep it well maintained and it should be alright. I'd be more worried about low oil level causing the pump to starve around corners. I've seen that happen a couple times on my car.

So, is there any harm in running a bit more oil than what should be in there? say an extra quart?

Use the points on the intake and I'm not saying that just to sell another one, we're doing with selling intakes. Nothing short of forced induction will provide anywhere near the HP/ TQ gain the intake will give you plus you'll have good power at top end and not fall off at 4.5k. Tell me you cant use more power and a broader rpm range when racing. It's hard to believe that you can race a car competitvely these days with such low powerband as the stock 2.8?
Look carefully at the dyno chart at our site and you'll see the big gains in both HP Tq and RPMs above 4.5k. And if it's also a street driver, it wont hurt gas milage and likely will improve it.

quote Originally posted by fiero_silva: So, is there any harm in running a bit more oil than what should be in there? say an extra quart?

I`m not a auto x`er , but if you think the oil being tossed back & forth down there would cause some issues---then wouldn`t a windage tray help you? I run a extra 1/2 quart --never any problems. Francis products would be a great asset in your racing, now if we can pin him down to a package deal on everything---I could get the bolt on`s on my 3.2 stroked under way....

If you run too much extra oil you'll get air entrainment in the oil from the crank counterweights/throws sloshing through the oil. This will spell pretty much instant doom for your bearings if that happens. Windage trays help prevent that, so do dry sump oiling systems.

RPM-wise the stock 2.8 experiences a significant decrease in torque and power above 4500 RPM or so mainly due to the intake and heads. The only real weak point in the oiling system is the supply to the rod and main bearings, that is tapped off of the cam bearing supply instead of having a dedicated supply like the later 3.4 blocks do. When the cam bearings wear the oil supply to the rods and mains declines significantly without seriously affecting the oil pressure displayed on the gauge. If you want to help this you can install small block chevy cam bearings which are wider and therefor have a larger bearing surface and much slower rate of wear.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by Francis T: The reason they dont like high RPM has nothing to do with their ability to survie it. The stock intake simply cannot flow enough air to keep the A/F mix from going way too rich above 4,500 rpm. WIth one of our intakes, I have had mine to 7k without breaking it. I try to keep it under 6.5k when I play around. Our intake customers will attest to the 2.8 and 3.4 being able to handle more than 5k rpm and make good power up there too, but if you dont let it breath it's just not worth going above 4.5k since the power drop off is unreal. You can see some dyno info on that topic at trueleo.com. Hopefully your race class allows for intake changes.

I'd love to get your intake, but with eventual plans to replace the 2.8l one day IMO it's just not worth the investiment.

I can however get the WFC intake, piggy back computer and 7th injector for a great price used from a buddy of mine. I'm sure it doesn't flow as much as yours does, but do you think on an otherwise stock internal 2.8 it would help out?

I'm running a windage tray on my 2.8 and I keep the oil level a 1/2 quart over full and have never had any problems. It also takes it off your mind when your turning high RPM's. Al you should def look into a windage tray IMO.

quote Originally posted by fiero_silva: I've got 2 "prep points" left to be used in my current class. Changing intake or injectors would use up those two points and I would have to use a stock TB.

If your engine is mostly a stock 2.8L and you want to run up to 6000 rpm without too much loss, Then just get Darrell Morse's bored/ported intake (cannot tell it is modified.) Port the stock exhaust manifolds and have your "Y" pipe bored at the "Y" part. These alone will increase flow, Give you roughly an 8 to 10 hp increae and allow you to run in the 5000 rpm range without too much worry and still make decent power. Above all they will all look completely stock. (Well technically they are "stock" just bored/ported.) The Fiero 2.8L is actually a very well designed engine in stock form, It when you modify it that the restrictions have an effect.


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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 07-12-2006).]

quote Originally posted by olaf_fiero27: I'm running a windage tray on my 2.8 and I keep the oil level a 1/2 quart over full and have never had any problems. It also takes it off your mind when your turning high RPM's. Al you should def look into a windage tray IMO.

Where did you get yours?


They are pretty easy to install right, just drian oil, drop oil pan, install and put it back?

You have to remember, I'm the guy who has never cracked open a car engine before, only my dirtbike or lawnmower from time to time

[This message has been edited by fiero_silva (edited 07-12-2006).]

few things you can do:
High volume oil pump - move more oil
windage tray - helps keep oil down in the pan
polish the crank - reduces friction
cross-drill crank - increases oil flow to bearings
use synth oil - just works better
hypereutectic pistons - lighter - less rotating mass on crank
grind smooth the oil return valleys from top of heads down to lifter valley - helps oil get back to pan quicker
use a rev limiter - keep from over reving

the newer (externaly balanced) 2.8/3.1/3.4 cranks/pistons/rods are good to 7000 RPM

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: few things you can do: High volume oil pump - move more oil windage tray - helps keep oil down in the pan polish the crank - reduces friction cross-drill crank - increases oil flow to bearings use synth oil - just works better hypereutectic pistons - lighter - less rotating mass on crank grind smooth the oil return valleys from top of heads down to lifter valley - helps oil get back to pan quicker use a rev limiter - keep from over reving the newer (externaly balanced) 2.8/3.1/3.4 cranks/pistons/rods are good to 7000 RPM

As I said before, the motor will die eventually and get replaced by somthing else so I don't want to invest a ton of money into it.

Let's say the limit is under $1000 for eveything...

High volume oil pump and windage tray sound like good ideas. What does a high volume pump usually run price wise?

Al, you're right all you do is drain oil, drop pan, take out some main cap bolts and replaced with whats in the kit, cost about $50 at the Fierostore. HV oil pumps are still quite cheap and usually run about $100.

quote Originally posted by fiero_silva: I'm inquiring about the stock but ported stuff right now. I think it will count for "prep points", but maybe not. I don't want to go all the way to 6k.. The rev limiter kicks in at 5600 doesn't it? I just want to be able to get there and be safe(r) doing it... Is there a way to dissable the rev limiter?

The rev limiter cuts off at 6000.
Rumor has it the 1988 ECM's do not have the rev limiters in them, But I am not sure.

88's do not have a rev limiter. I found this out when my throttle stuck open once. I hit just past 6500 rpm before I could kill the ignition. On my stock 2.8 with 150k miles (at the time) valve float kept it from going beyond 6500 rpm.

The truleo intake is impressive on a 3.4, but I haven't seen dyno sheets with it on a stock 2.8 so I'm not sure if the gains would be comparable. I know my 2.8 pulls hard past 5000 rpm. It doesn't start to run out of breath until 5300 - 5500 rpm. In it's younger days, and with no catalytic converter it would pull hard all the way to 6000 rpm.

Also remember, a higher volume oil pump takes more horsepower to turn and causes faster wear on the drive gears on the distributor. The benefits typically outweigh the problems, but just something to keep in mind. Many race cars run as little oil pressure as they can get away with because that frees up more horsepower. But those engines don't have to last beyond the race, either.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-12-2006).]

quote Originally posted by fiero_silva: As I said before, the motor will die eventually and get replaced by somthing else so I don't want to invest a ton of money into it. Let's say the limit is under $1000 for eveything... High volume oil pump and windage tray sound like good ideas. What does a high volume pump usually run price wise?

the only expensive thing on my list is the pistons. ands that barely over $100. everything else is work.
also - one more addition to my list - a FINE balance job

Have a machine shop cut down the areas where the top and middle intake meet then do some gasket matching and smoothening all around. I lost about .6" in intake height from that area.

Smoothen everything that you can and gasket match, especially where the lower intake meets the middle intake...

When spinning over 6500rpm, you really got to question the stock rods' durability... Are overbores OK? Get some 6" rods and 3.4 TDC pistons... You'll have a high spinning 3.1L motor...as long as they don't make you pull the heads, all they can see from the pan is a 2.8 crank...

Just to let you know, our untake is just as impressive on a 2.8. Both engines die at above 4.5K

where can i get one of the intakes you guys are talking about..the ones that look stock and the other ones.im building a street racing fiero and neet to get higher rpms out of my car

I have 3 scrap 2.8s in my garage now. One has a broken rod, one has a crank split in 3 pieces, and the last has 4 spun main bearings and a split #2 main cap. The later 2.8s are internally balanced, not externally as someone mentioned above.

The 3 piece crank was my fault for using the wrong flywheel. The other ones failed due to oil issues (even with a high volume pump).

I believe the question was "how to keep the 2.8 alive at high rpm" Not how to spend money on a bigger and better intake to blow it up quicker in racing applications.

That being said per my " is the 88 bottom end stronger" post, others have said the 3.1 has a dedicated oil galley for the crank instead of having to go through the lifters first. You can always run all the 2.8 parts (crank, pistons, heads) on a 3.1 block and still have a "legal" 2.8 liters of engine. I have not tried this yet but I have a couple 3.1s in the garage I am checking out to make sure it works as I just said.

Leave the oil pump alone stock is fine, you don't need the hp loss'
It is already an aniemic motor dont need the hp loss.
windage tray yes do it soon ad 1/2 quart more synthetic oil.
Match port your intake top mid bottom and heads. Don't forget to match pot the tb as well.
Pull the heads and have them milled .010 bump compression use copper head gasket.
all this is way less than $250 and you time spent on bench with die grinder.
bet you get 10 hp out of it.
Sorry match port the exhaust as well.

quote Originally posted by DEMONCHILD: where can i get one of the intakes you guys are talking about..the ones that look stock and the other ones.

Not sure on the stock ones--i think they are talking about porting the intake---the other ones you ask about are here: www.trueleo.com

The 88 does have a rev limiter, my brothers formula has one. Don't get the trueleo if you don't plan on keeping your motor...I would do the dual TB intake...it is WAY cheaper.

This thread has several pictures of different intakes by various members
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/074050.html

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-15-2006).]

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: The 88 does have a rev limiter, my brothers formula has one.

Really? Got a pic?

What? You want a pic of his ecu?

quote Originally posted by formula400: you can put in the risitor on the IAT sensor as well get it run a little fat.

No, This is NOT something you want to do unless you want to replace internal engine parts for predentonation damage.

quote Originally posted by formula400: windage tray yes do it soon ad 1/2 quart more synthetic oil.

NEVER overfill your oil. Even with a windage tray it will cavate and foam up.

Please stop giving inaccurate and incorrect information.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 07-15-2006).]

I'm putting in a 3400 from a 2001 or 2003 Monte Carlo and the oil pan has bolts that go horizontally into the crank journals, I believe. Interesting... I'll see if I can send someone pics... Also it comes with a windage tray from the factory. With the correct sized rods, you could use a 2.8 crank in this thing, but probably the S-10 crank is the one you want. Pistons would have to be DOHC pistons and you'd have 3.1 L that doesn't mind spinning to 7000rpm.

I could be wrong but I think if you could find flat top 3.4 pistons, the proper rod length is ~6.030" (3.31" stroke - 2.99" stroke + 5.7" rods - [piston height difference between 2.8 pistons and 3.1/3.4 pistons]) What I never liked about 3.4 rwd pistons is that they are dished. It seems like you get a compression loss when going the normal 3.4 swap route. Using the DOHC pistons and readily available 6.000" rods may balance things back out as far as compression goes...I've never done the math so this is just theory...

So in the end, I would say is you have to keep it a 2.8, find a 3.1 block from a mini-van and use the 2.8 crank and pistons - hence a rebuild is in order... Otherwise use a newer front wheel drive block with a roller cam that stock makes more power @ 5200 rpm vs the Fiero's 4800 rpm and has a stronger bottom end and either way, a rebuild is in order.

What you do to actually produce power at those high RPMs shouldn't be ignored because what's the point of building a high revving motor if it doesn't make sense to rev that high...

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: The 88 does have a rev limiter, my brothers formula has one. Don't get the trueleo if you don't plan on keeping your motor...I would do the dual TB intake...it is WAY cheaper. This thread has several pictures of different intakes by various members https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/074050.html

the 88 has no rev limit in the gt, mine goes right to 6500 no sweat. the dumps of the chip have already shown that the rev limit it something like 186000 rpm. unless they used a differrent chip in the formula, or he has the wrong ecm.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: If you run too much extra oil you'll get air entrainment in the oil from the crank counterweights/throws sloshing through the oil. This will spell pretty much instant doom for your bearings if that happens. Windage trays help prevent that, so do dry sump oiling systems. RPM-wise the stock 2.8 experiences a significant decrease in torque and power above 4500 RPM or so mainly due to the intake and heads. The only real weak point in the oiling system is the supply to the rod and main bearings, that is tapped off of the cam bearing supply instead of having a dedicated supply like the later 3.4 blocks do. When the cam bearings wear the oil supply to the rods and mains declines significantly without seriously affecting the oil pressure displayed on the gauge. If you want to help this you can install small block chevy cam bearings which are wider and therefor have a larger bearing surface and much slower rate of wear. JazzMan

I read somewhere that in the Nextel Cup series engines, the builders are going with smaller diameter main bearing sizes to reduce the load on the mains. They mentioned that with the improvements in oil, machining, and materials in main bearings themselves, they can now get away with this safely and with good reliability.
I believe it was in an issue of one of the NASCAR magazines, not sure what issue but I will try and locate it if I can.

If you plan on running it high in the rpm range I would suggest changing the ingnition module in the distributor and maybe the coil. When I run into the same situation when I am autoxing on if i should shift or not I will back off a little bit and concentrate more on getting set up for the next section of the course. I let a friend of mine drive my car in a driving school that our local scca region held and he pushed it too hard (and of course he had another way to get home), and he kept the motor running to high for too long and the ignition just started craping out.

It is unbelievable at the amount if wrong imformation contained in the thread. To begin with the stock bottom end is pretty good. The major cause for loss of the bottom end is lack of lubrication. The nunber one reason for this lack of lubrication is poor maintanance. Spiritedly driving a Fiero with low oil volume is an invitation to disaster. When the oil level is low it will slosh around in the pan, and momentarily uncover the oil pick up tube causing loss of oil pressure. Do this often enough and you will wipe out a crank. The cure is simple. Maintain the proper oil level. For racing applications the addition of an accumulator resivoir will protect against loss of presure due to slosh.
The second leading cause of lack of lubrication is sustained high RPMs. At higher RPMs the crankshaft creates a low pressure area which causes the oil to swirl around the crankshaft as it exits the bearings. If you could look at the end of the crank while this was happening you could see the oil swirling around the crank. Kind of like what you see on television looking down into the eye of a hurricane. This is what a windage tray is for. It is is actually an oil scraper. It is mounterd close to the crank, and scrapes this swirl of oil from the crank and returns it to the pan. Without a windage tray it is possible to have four or more quarts of oil swirling around the crankshaft at high RPMs.
Running excessive oil level can cause cavitation, but this is usually at lower RPM. The crank spinning through the oil will cause it to foam. As the foamy oil enters the oil pump the pump will compress the air bubbles instead of forcing oil into the oil journals. The oil capacity on a 2.8 with the long filter is 4.5 quarts. I have run my street car at five quarts for years with no ill effects. That includes track days anf autocross events. I have hit the rev limiter many many times while autocrossing (86GT) with no problems.

With your tired engine I would recommend a new oil pump, windage tray, and 1.5qt Accusump. A stock pump will give the engine more than an ample supply of oil, the windage tray will insure the oil pump gets oil, and if either of these fail momentarily the Accusump will insure that the bearings have a continous supply of oil. This will carry you til you reach the rebuid point.

As far as PRMs go the bottom end is good to around 7to 8K. It's the valve train that begins to go first. The valves will float at around 6.5K.


Chuck
88 Formula
ITA #34

ok what is a accusump?

quote Originally posted by gold87: ok what is a accusump?

When it comes to sommon use race products it may be faster to use yahoo or google. i did and I am now sold on an accusump. May have prevented my 2.8 from biting the dust.

They are also called oil accumulators

This is one site of many
http://www.accusump.com/acc_tech_accusump.html

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-16-2006).]

Accusump is the brand name of an oil accumulator marketed to racers. In essence an accumulator is a dry sump that is added to an engine. The 1.5 to 3 quart container is remotely mounted, and connected through an adapter mounted between the oil filter and engine block. The accumulator housing contains an air charged bladder and space for the appropiate amount of oil. When you fill the engine with oil, or after an oil change you add the proper amount of additional oil to the engine. When you start the engine 1.5 or 3 quarts of oil (whichever one you have) flows into the accumulator at engine oil pressure. As long as the engine is runing and has the same amount of oil pressure the oil stays in the accumulator. If you lose oil pressure the oil in the ammumulator flows into the oil journals and keeps the engine lubricated. They come with either a manual or electrical shut off switch so you can keep the oil in the accumulator under pressure when you shut the engine off. They can be used to pre-oil an engine at start up insuring no dry starts. They are simply fantastic for prelubricating a fresh rebuild before that first start. I have lost two race engines due to oil starvation prior to getting an Accusump. I will not run another race car without one. For a better explanation and pictures do a Google search for Accusump.

Chuck