Outstanding clear, detailed, and useful information fierochild. A (+) from me.

It amazes me that no other experienced person has mentioned this as a cure to the common problem of 2.8s starvation.


Now lets talk about where one might mount such a thing? Where would you get a pressurized supply of oil from?

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: It amazes me that no other experienced person has mentioned this as a cure to the common problem of 2.8s starvation. Now lets talk about where one might mount such a thing? Where would you get a pressurized supply of oil from?

Thats because under normal driving, and some spirtited driving conditions, this is not an issue. I would have to say even though the 2.8 is has a decent reliable design, that all gets chucked out the door once you start getting into any kind of raceing. And the other problems others may run into can be cured from a rebuild, so the need for an accusump just does not fit the bill in my opinion. Now, why it has not been mentioned as a cure for those raceing the 2.8, that should have been the first suggestion that came up now that I have read up on the system a bit.

quote Originally posted by OH10fiero: Thats because under normal driving, and some spirtited driving conditions, this is not an issue. I would have to say even though the 2.8 is has a decent reliable design, that all gets chucked out the door once you start getting into any kind of raceing. And the other problems others may run into can be cured from a rebuild, so the need for an accusump just does not fit the bill in my opinion. Now, why it has not been mentioned as a cure for those raceing the 2.8, that should have been the first suggestion that came up now that I have read up on the system a bit.

Yeah you do have a point since I race my fiero I assume all others do as well and so i just lumped my apples into one bunch. For me I beat on my motor like no other. An oil accumulator is in my future...I like the idea of 3 extra quarts, but they aren't in the pan causing problems.

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-17-2006).]

pictures of the 2003 3400 oil pan: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/072050-3.html
with regards to the horizontal bolts going through it

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 07-18-2006).]

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: Now lets talk about where one might mount such a thing? Where would you get a pressurized supply of oil from?

the pressurized oil comes from your oil pump. read the site it explains it. the air bladder is there to hold the pressure for when the
pump is starved. the valving on this system is the part that requires some thought, as you wan the tank valved off before shutting the motor off so it holds the oil and pressure. the electric valve is a neat way to do it, tho it is expensive. if you don;t valve it off, you would end up dumping the 3 quarts right into the motor on shutdown, and end up with an overfilled motor.

you can mount it anywhere, the trunk, in the engine compartment, it isn;t very big, so that should not be an issue.

real racers use dry sumps and external pumps. weekend warriors don;t need that, and they are not designed for day to day driving.
the accusump type thing is good for the weekenders and day to day driving. I like the thought of no dry starts, so maybe a 1 or 2 qaurt would be in the future, but I doubt it. I consider windage tray, customized HV oil pumps, smoothed return valleys, opened drain holes on the heads to be part of a normal rebuild for any motor I drive daily. even bored out oil galleries if that is required.
Race motors are a whole nother issue. just plan on replacing the motor every so often, or learn all the things that need to be done to make a motor race ready. (which probably will cost more than a few long blocks )

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: the pressurized oil comes from your oil pump. read the site it explains it. the air bladder is there to hold the pressure for when the pump is starved. the valving on this system is the part that requires some thought, as you wan the tank valved off before shutting the motor off so it holds the oil and pressure. the electric valve is a neat way to do it, tho it is expensive. if you don;t valve it off, you would end up dumping the 3 quarts right into the motor on shutdown, and end up with an overfilled motor. you can mount it anywhere, the trunk, in the engine compartment, it isn;t very big, so that should not be an issue. )

Thanks for the answer but that was so damn general and vague. I know pressurized oil comes from the oil pump. I meant FIERO specific. I know how an accusunp works i read the site twice. Please don't respond like I don't know $hit about fieros or cars.

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-19-2006).]

your question was pretty vague, and sure didn't sound like you read the site, or for that matter what to do.
you have to have the reserve right in the oil flow path to the motor, you want to get volume moving if you need it. hence something like the pressure sending tap would really be too small and restrictive.
I would take an oil filter relocation kit and plumb that over to the sump after the filter, so the pressurized oil has no restriction to the motor. while you;re at it, you can get the filter to a more accessable spot for changing, and get a larger one.
the actual plumbing is up to you, there are a number of good ways to do it. you can get some 1/2" bendable copper at a plumbing shop, get some flare or compression fittings, and bring the oil lines to the back of the car, then go to high pressure hydraulic hose if you mount the sump/filter to the body.

here's my relocation/ the front of the motor:


and the rear: (the filter is mounted to the tranny , so switch to all hard pipe is ok, as the filter moves with the motor)


would be fairly easy to mount the tank above the filter with a bracket off the head, or put it in the trunk with some hose for a setup like mine. I plan on switching over to hard pipe, should be more failure resistant. too much heat in the fiero compartment for hose, at least not the stuff that came with the kit.

Didn't mean to come off as a prick...but I can handle some detail when it comes to engines. Neways
What you did is pretty cool. Then all I would have to do if I ran similiar to yours is put a T fitting on where the filter is.

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-19-2006).]

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: Didn't mean to come off as a prick...but I can handle some detail when it comes to engines. Neways What you did is pretty cool. Then all I would have to do if I ran similiar to yours is put a T fitting on where the filter is.

np, we both took it the wrong way. yup a T fitting on the output side of the filter would give it a direct shot to the motor, and should give you plenty of room for mounting it.

This of course is only if the filter has a check valve.

JazzMan

I don;t know of many oil filters that have check valves in them, but a check valve can be plumbed in line, tho I don;t know that it will be needed. even tho it is temporarily dry, the oil pump will still be spinning, which should force the oil back. with that end effectively blocked by the pump the oil should flow to the motor. the volume of the hoses should be no more than a pint, 2 tops, so the motor should have a good supply.

the check valve would assure a one way flow, but it adds another potential point of failure/trouble.

Along the lines of this topic: When we're done with designing (they are looking great thus far) and start production of our headers, I was thinking about our next possible project being a higher volume oil pan for the 2.8. Add maybe 2qts. Not much room down there and I dont want to go lower and get it hit, but I think it can be done in the limited space we have. Question is before I bother, does anyone already make such a pan for the 2.8 that wont be to low to the ground in a Fiero?

I haven;t really looked. My thoughts are not so much the capacity of the pan is the problem, but the lack of return flow of the existing oil as it tends to trap the oil in the heads and cam valley area in hard cornering. the lack of depth of the pan requires the windage tray, due to the wind effects of the counter weights.
on the mt types, you can easily extend to the rear with a bulge out, just make it with enough room to get to the pan bolts.
it wouldn;t hurt to have some extra oil capacity if it can be kept under control, and should be fairly easy for someone with yout skills to fab up properly. as to how may you can sell, well, I don;t know I would spend alot of money tooling up for any volume.

actually, if you guys are looking to design something new...

how about aluminum door cross-beams that offer the same protection but are lighter than stock...

.. or faster power window motors ...

Oh, I'm not looking for another project will require tooling up and buy custom flanges etc like out intakes and headers. It's just somethign I want to add to my car and if works out maybe I'll do them for others on and exchange thing. IE you send me your pan and I send you another. What I'd really luv to do is also add a swinging pickup, you know aircraft type. They follow the Gs and thus the pickup never gets starved, but thats a lot more complicated especially for that small pan.

check my dynosheet, where max HP is at close to 6000 rpm!
I regularly hit 6500, but do have the windage tray.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/075282.html

that's fine, but what happens when the car is moving? on a dyno, oil is not an issue. 6500 is nice, mine (daily driver) goes well over that at least once a week. the issue is oil starvation killing the motor. breathing(intake) and exhaust have been beat to death in many other threads. I believe this thread is for addressing all the issues of the 2.8 at high rpm, and for any decent longevity, oil is the most crucial. the intakes and exhausts are all easily avialable aftermarket, the oil issues need to be addressed at the motor.
No one ever won a race with a spun/siezed bearing.

btw, nice job on the carb setup, I hope you paid as much attention to the rest of the motor! I would think you did, as most carb guys are old school and know what needs to be done! Carbs now-a-days seem to be a dead issue, and done right are an excellent way to go. (if you don;t have smog nazi's to deal with)

I think this was mentioned in here somewhere. Anyway, when drilling out the 2,8 crank oil passages to a larger size what # drill should I use? I heard about this after I rebuilt the engine of cause. When I make my higher volume oil pan I'll drill it out then if it can be done without pulling the crank.

I have to ask my machinist, and I know he is closed for vacation for a week, cause I just plain forget. that was back in november when I spece'd the motor out with him, and he mentioned it, but since mine was an 88 block he thought it was already crossdrilled on the crank, the next stage is the feed and boring the galleries a little bigger. basically, nothing you could do with the motor in the car.

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: What? You want a pic of his ecu?

I was being facetious - the 88 does NOT have a rev limiter.

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: I was being facetious - the 88 does NOT have a rev limiter.

I wont argue and waste space. So we agree to disagree.

quote Originally posted by Francis T: I think this was mentioned in here somewhere. Anyway, when drilling out the 2,8 crank oil passages to a larger size what # drill should I use? I heard about this after I rebuilt the engine of cause. When I make my higher volume oil pan I'll drill it out then if it can be done without pulling the crank.

I think the drilling is additional holes & passages - not expanding the existing ones.
also, I think the newer (externally balanced) cranks have this done already - but not sure on this

you mean the newer "internally balanced" cranks, don't you?