So Kyle (arte444) and I took another stab at timing the other day and we still can't get it right. We used a feeler inside the #1 cylinder to feel for TDC, then painted a mark on the harmonic balancer at 0 degrees (the very last tick on the zig zag set). Jumpered the ALDL, started it up, let it warm. Set the timing to the 10 degree mark (middle inset of the zig zag set). Pulled the ALDL out and started the motor again. It then idled really well for about five minutes, but when you hit the gas it choked. bad. After five minutes of idling really well (and stumbling on acceleration) it started misfiring and the idle was going all over the place. No idea what's going on here. I'm pretty much out of ideas here, and am considering taking it to a shop and bending over to get the timing set (to rule that out completely as a source of my problems), or if someone nearby could come over and lend a hand that'd be great as well. Any takers?
Adam

Throttle position sensor or fuel pressure.

Fuel pressure is 43 psi with ignition on, 39 psi while cranking, and stays at 43 psi for a long time after ignition off. You think the TPS could be bad? Here are more symptoms I forgot to mention: after I shut the engine off, the ISC motor wags back and forth for about ten seconds. The ISC motor is good.

Might try searching this forum:

http://www.cadillacforums.com

They have a HT4100 (4.1) | 4.5 | 4.9 section

Will do, thanks for the advice. Anybody else? Would the MAP have anything to do with it?

Errrr, which is the number one cylinder? I think I've been using the wrong one. I've been using the near bank, right side, if looking at the engine like you would in a Fiero. Am I supposed to use the left side?

It's the front bank, first one passenger side.

------------------
-Rick Stewart
85GT 5.0CaddyV8/Getrag 5-spd in progress...
www.V8Fiero.com

And the front bank is pointing toward the front of the vehicle, so if I looked at it it'd be the hard to get to side, on the right. Crap, I should use the right cylinder, then maybe it would work.

quote Originally posted by Wipe0ut: So Kyle (arte444) and I took another stab at timing the other day and we still can't get it right. We used a feeler inside the #1 cylinder to feel for TDC, then painted a mark on the harmonic balancer at 0 degrees (the very last tick on the zig zag set). Jumpered the ALDL, started it up, let it warm. Set the timing to the 10 degree mark (middle inset of the zig zag set). Pulled the ALDL out and started the motor again. It then idled really well for about five minutes, but when you hit the gas it choked. bad. After five minutes of idling really well (and stumbling on acceleration) it started misfiring and the idle was going all over the place. No idea what's going on here. I'm pretty much out of ideas here, and am considering taking it to a shop and bending over to get the timing set (to rule that out completely as a source of my problems), or if someone nearby could come over and lend a hand that'd be great as well. Any takers? Adam

bad timing chain maybe?

The whole timing set was checked and tightened 1500 miles ago. We're hoping to rule that out as a possibility.

Are you sure you were on the compression stroke on the cylinder you were using to set the timeing? Since you are making new marks to time it by, I'm not sure it makes a difference on what cylinder you are useing, ( Sounds confussing enough to me!)
But I will add, this is not the first time I heard of this happening on the 4.9. I just don't know how you to fix it.
Good Luck
Keep us posted
Thanks Gary

Urg, new markings didn't help. However, we found out we were using the wrong cylinder (>_< ) and we are now using the correct one, but it's not helping. Still don't see any markings. I also figured out we weren't correctly jumpering the ALDL connector (how many things can you do wrong? ask us). Now that the ALDL is correctly jumpered, it starts and runs BEAUTIFULLY. If you start the car without it jumpered it runs like crap. What gives?

Set your car to TDC of the compression stroke (#1 cylinder is looking at the front of the motor, first one on your right - or you could just look at the intake manifold as the cylinder numbers are cast into it). The timing mark is a groove in the crank pulley, correct at should be at the 0 mark at TDC (you should not have to remark it unless the pulley was changed out for a different one). Make sure you are on the compression stroke not the exhaust stroke.

Check to make sure your distributor is at the #1 position - also marked on the distributor.

Make sure your plug wires are in the correct spot. Warm up engine. Turn engine off. Connect up your timing light (it is recommended to use an inductive timing light). Jumper pins A & B on the ALDL. Timing should be set at 10 degrees BTDC (the manual as states that it should be set at 800 rpm or less).

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 01-17-2006).]

What marks can't you see, Adam? When I had the car I didn't have any problems seeing the marks. Can you not see the one on the dampner (pulley) or the ones on the timing cover?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Wipe0ut: Urg, new markings didn't help. However, we found out we were using the wrong cylinder (>_< ) and we are now using the correct one, but it's not helping. Still don't see any markings. I also figured out we weren't correctly jumpering the ALDL connector (how many things can you do wrong? ask us). Now that the ALDL is correctly jumpered, it starts and runs BEAUTIFULLY. If you start the car without it jumpered it runs like crap. What gives?

We did exactly what you said - there was no mark at TDC on the pulley. However, there was a mark that I had previously made that lined right up. The distributor is pointing at the #1 cylinder tower. We started the vehicle with the pins jumpered and set to 10 degrees BTDC. Does the vehicle being warm make a difference? I forgot about that part. With the timing set at 10 degrees BTDC and the ALDL jumpered, it ran a little weird but not too bad. We turned the car off and took the jumper out. Tried to start it, it wouldn't start. Turned the distributor 20 degrees clockwise and it started up. Turned the distributor back to where it was when we set the timing and it backfired out the intake manifold. Scared the **** out of me so we shut it off.

There's something that's messing with the timing. Why the hell would it still be off? Bad ECM? GRRR

John, the marks on the harmonic balancer are what I can't see. We ended up making our own mark since we couldn't find a damn thing on the harmonic balancer. Agh!

[This message has been edited by Wipe0ut (edited 01-17-2006).]

There is a small nick/groove on the back lip of the harmonic balancer for TDC. Get under the car and turn the engine over by hand until you can see it. Then take "white out" and mark the groove all the way across the balancer so it is on the front as well (just makes it easier to see).

The single deep notch in the timing notches is 0 degrees and it will be to the far right as you lean over the PS of the car to see it.

Put the jumper back in, hook up the light and start it back up and find the mark you just made white and then time it in.

I looked again - our mark WAS the notch in the pulley. We're letting the car warm up now to see if that changes anything. Right now it says it's about 20 degrees BTDC.

As you look at the engine in the car, which plug wire do you have the timing light connected to? When we put the bearings in we checked the timing chain and it seemed to be in good shape, I seriously doubt that's causing you a problem.

John Stricker

PS: I thought you had this licked, I hadn't heard from you since I sent you the pictures.

quote Originally posted by Wipe0ut: With the car warm, it didn't seem to change anything. We kept twisting the distributor counter-clockwise, and as the timing mark began getting close, the idle kept decreasing (good) but the car started slightly missing (bad). By the time the mark was on the right spot, the car was misfiring and we were scared it was going to torch us. WTF is going on?

(It's been a while since I sold my 4.9 85 GT), Isn't there a brown wire
behind the alternator that has to be grounded before this motors
are timed?

Ed

Not saying that some weren't like that (similar to the HEI's on the TPI small blocks of the early '90's) but typically you set the base timing by jumpering the A&B terminals of the ALDL and setting timing at any engine speed below 800 rpm.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by ED's85GT: (It's been a while since I sold my 4.9 85 GT), Isn't there a brown wire behind the alternator that has to be grounded before this motors are timed? Ed

The only other question is who did the wiring?? You may want to double check the distributor wiring to the ECM.

Barring that, you may have to pull the cover off the timing chain and have a look there and see if the crank and cam gears line up correctly.

edited to add: The wire behind the alternator in grounded when you are setting up the min/max idle settings during the idle learn proceedure.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 01-18-2006).]

The wiring is an Ed Parks harness and the car ran fine for a time. In looking at the wiring diagrams if he is actually timing on cylinder 1, and the engine runs fine with the ALDL jumpered, it's beginning to look like an ECM issue to me. We had the pan off and put new rods and mains in and the timing chain appeared fine at that time about 1500 miles ago so I'm doubtful that it's a timing chain issue.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: The only other question is who did the wiring?? You may want to double check the distributor wiring to the ECM. Barring that, you may have to pull the cover off the timing chain and have a look there and see if the crank and cam gears line up correctly. edited to add: The wire behind the alternator in grounded when you are setting up the min/max idle settings during the idle learn proceedure.

Well we've tried timing on four of the eight cylinders (lol) and the most recent attempt was made on the correct cylinder, the front right if looking at the engine from the front of the engine (water pump/serpentine belt side), and the "far right" if looking at the engine as one normally would in a Fiero. I can't believe I haven't figured this out yet! It's gotta be something weird. John, what problems did you have with VATS on the ECM; is there any way I could purchase an ECM from a junkyard and try it out? Is the CEL hooked up? It wasn't throwing any codes when we had the instrument cluster plugged in. If the ECM were to go bad, would the "bad" be contained in the PROM? Also I found another problem (I think), although it's not related to my car's current condition. I suspect it'll become a problem soon though, what do you think:

By the way if any of you need temporary pic hosting, http://www.v8fiero.net/upload

[This message has been edited by Wipe0ut (edited 01-18-2006).]

As you look at the engine, standing behind the trunk looking forward, #1 is the FRONT, PASSENGER SIDE spark plug. Make sure you're timing on that plug. Normally the "fault" will not be in the memcal. You can get a new PCM at a junkyard but you'll need to swap your memcal out because you have the one that rockcrawl burned for you. Once we got the memcal from him, I didn't have any issues with the VATS. Until then, when we tried to use Ed's module, the engine would start and die as if VATS weren't disabled.

Looking at that center terminal I have to ask if you've replaced the ignition module in the distributor. I had mine go bad on the way to Osage Beach and it took out the coil and and did some burning of the center pin in the cap. No problems since I replaced the coil and module (and put a new center terminal pin in I had laying around). You need to replace your distributor cap. I don't remember for sure without looking at the pictures, but didn't you have an Accel coil or something like that on the engine? I believe Ed's harnesses all have the SES light wired up. Does it come on when you turn the key on? I don't remember now, that's been over a year ago.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Wipe0ut: Well we've tried timing on four of the eight cylinders (lol) and the most recent attempt was made on the correct cylinder, the front right if looking at the engine from the front of the engine (water pump/serpentine belt side), and the "far right" if looking at the engine as one normally would in a Fiero. I can't believe I haven't figured this out yet! It's gotta be something weird. John, what problems did you have with VATS on the ECM; is there any way I could purchase an ECM from a junkyard and try it out? Is the CEL hooked up? It wasn't throwing any codes when we had the instrument cluster plugged in. If the ECM were to go bad, would the "bad" be contained in the PROM? Also I found another problem (I think), although it's not related to my car's current condition. I suspect it'll become a problem soon though, what do you think: By the way if any of you need temporary pic hosting, http://www.v8fiero.net/upload

Haha about the SES light I don't know either - it's been a while since I've had an instrument cluster in this guy. I will for sure replace the cap then, but would the ignition module failing change with ALDL jumpering? That's what gets me is that it runs basically fine (a little weird idle but not nearly as bad as normal) with it jumpered. Oh, I did not replace the ignition module yet because it's $60 and I'm unemployed (and poor.. and cheap ). I tested the coil and it gave two readings of 0.3 ohms and 8800 ohms, so it's right in check.

Cylinder D is the correct cylinder, right? The notch in the pulley lined up with TDC of that cylinder.

[This message has been edited by Wipe0ut (edited 01-19-2006).]

In your drawing, D is the #1 Cylinder. (nice drawing, BTW, considering you probably knocked it out in a couple of minutes and it sure clears up any confusion.)

Coils are funny things, there are some tests for them but I don't really trust most of them. Just like testing ICM's, they might test good but still be bad.

Because your car seems to run OK with the aldl jumpered but the timing gets whacked up when you pull the jumper, I'm still thinking it's most likely the PCM.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Wipe0ut: Haha about the SES light I don't know either - it's been a while since I've had an instrument cluster in this guy. I will for sure replace the cap then, but would the ignition module failing change with ALDL jumpering? That's what gets me is that it runs basically fine (a little weird idle but not nearly as bad as normal) with it jumpered. Oh, I did not replace the ignition module yet because it's $60 and I'm unemployed (and poor.. and cheap ). I tested the coil and it gave two readings of 0.3 ohms and 8800 ohms, so it's right in check. Cylinder D is the correct cylinder, right? The notch in the pulley lined up with TDC of that cylinder.

You can time the engine on any cylinder so long as you make an appropriate mark on the crank pulley. It is not uncommon for the pulley to slip on the hub since it is mounted on rubber and drives the accesories. An oil leak will cause the rubber to degrade and unbond from the steel hub and pulley. It doesn't sound like you have that problem though.
When you jumper the ALDL A to B the ignition will switch to bypass mode. In bypass mode the engine will run on the base timing you see at the pulley. In normal operating mode the ECM will add timing depending on engine speed, engine load (manifold pressure), engine temp, and air temp. An erratic MAP, ECT, or IAT sensor reading will have a negative effect on timing, with MAP being the most prominent. Those sensors will also affect fueling which will make the problem even worse. What makes you so sure this is a timing problem anyway??

quote Also I found another problem (I think), although it's not related to my car's current condition. I suspect it'll become a problem soon though, what do you think:

I think you're insane if you don't think that's related to your current problem. I wouldn't be surprised if that is your problem. That distributor cap should have been replaced a long time ago. If that's any indication of the condition of the rest of the engine, you should replace the plugs and wires too.

rockcrawl,

The interesting thing about that is that when I had the car here, the cap was NEW and it did NOT look like that. It has done that in 1,500 miles. He does have an aftermarket coil (Accel I believe) on the HEI. Personally, I'd throw that away and go back to stock. The coil output on the stock setup is more than adequate for a stock 4.9L. I think an MSD will smooth the idle up a little, but I have no delusions that it gives any more power throughout the powerband.

I'm suspecting that something was not installed correctly when that Accel coil went in. No spring, maybe? No rubber washer? I don't know, I didn't take the coil out and the car ran fine when it left here. This happened fairly suddenly, IIRC, after he had driven the car about 1,000 miles or so.

First fix what you know is broke. New cap, certainly. I'd ditch the coil too and put a Delco or Borg Warner stock replacement in there. The wires were new 1500 miles ago as well so I wouldn't automatically dump them, but an ohm test on the wires would certainly be in order. If you still have problems after fixing what you know is broke, then I'd really suspect the ECM, but fix what you know is screwed up first.

BTW-you really need to get a scanner, or at least your dash in there so you can see if it's coding anything. Diagnosing a computer controlled car without any idea of the failure codes (if any) is really a lesson in frustration.

John Stricker

PS: You'll have an email tonight, rockcrawl, I need another chip burned for another car.

quote Originally posted by rockcrawl: You can time the engine on any cylinder so long as you make an appropriate mark on the crank pulley. It is not uncommon for the pulley to slip on the hub since it is mounted on rubber and drives the accesories. An oil leak will cause the rubber to degrade and unbond from the steel hub and pulley. It doesn't sound like you have that problem though. When you jumper the ALDL A to B the ignition will switch to bypass mode. In bypass mode the engine will run on the base timing you see at the pulley. In normal operating mode the ECM will add timing depending on engine speed, engine load (manifold pressure), engine temp, and air temp. An erratic MAP, ECT, or IAT sensor reading will have a negative effect on timing, with MAP being the most prominent. Those sensors will also affect fueling which will make the problem even worse. What makes you so sure this is a timing problem anyway?? I think you're insane if you don't think that's related to your current problem. I wouldn't be surprised if that is your problem. That distributor cap should have been replaced a long time ago. If that's any indication of the condition of the rest of the engine, you should replace the plugs and wires too.

quote Originally posted by rockcrawl: You can time the engine on any cylinder so long as you make an appropriate mark on the crank pulley. It is not uncommon for the pulley to slip on the hub since it is mounted on rubber and drives the accesories. An oil leak will cause the rubber to degrade and unbond from the steel hub and pulley. It doesn't sound like you have that problem though. When you jumper the ALDL A to B the ignition will switch to bypass mode. In bypass mode the engine will run on the base timing you see at the pulley. In normal operating mode the ECM will add timing depending on engine speed, engine load (manifold pressure), engine temp, and air temp. An erratic MAP, ECT, or IAT sensor reading will have a negative effect on timing, with MAP being the most prominent. Those sensors will also affect fueling which will make the problem even worse. What makes you so sure this is a timing problem anyway?? I think you're insane if you don't think that's related to your current problem. I wouldn't be surprised if that is your problem. That distributor cap should have been replaced a long time ago. If that's any indication of the condition of the rest of the engine, you should replace the plugs and wires too.

Rockcrawl: there is no "long time ago" when it comes to that cap/rotor. The cap, rotor, and coil are 1600 miles old. John swapped the plugs and I will probably swap them again, as they are a little blacker than they should be. The plug wires should be fine (1600 miles on those as well), but I'll put them on my DMM and see. I'm crazy to think that's not my problem? The motor runs fine with the ALDL jumpered. What in the cap would adversely affect the idle only with the ALDL not jumpered? However, I agree with you - it's obviously not how it should be (what could I have done to screw that up, not enough dielectric grease?), and it wouldn't hurt to swap a new one in. I'd prefer keeping the Accel coil, only because I'm unemployed and poor. I'd have to buy another Accel cap/rotor, which is $11 at AutoZone.. if anyone has a spare stock cap/rotor/coil, I will trade you my Accel coil. I do have an ALDL to RS-232 cable at my disposal to continue troubleshooting now, all I have to do is figure out how to work 8192 baud software. What do you guys recommend? I've been playing with CarBytes.

I'm not 100% sure it IS a timing problem, but if I can't get the timing correctly set I can't really proceed with troubleshooting. I've been trying to fix what I know is wrong first, then start narrowing it down.

Rockcrawl, I also heard recently that I should be running 92 or higher octane with your burned MEMCAL. I don't remember that. The car has a mixture of 89 and 91 in it now. Hmm.......

Edit: crap, I was supposed to have put dielectric grease where that spins wasn't I? That would make sense. We put some on the spring, but that's it.. I remember being confused reading the instructions. Kyle and I assembled the cap/rotor/coil before we knew anything about cars. Just ask John - we had no idea what we were doing. haha.

[This message has been edited by Wipe0ut (edited 01-21-2006).]

I do not think it is an octane problem, I run 87 and it runs great. Yes I have Rockcrawl's chip.

Well I called Autozone and they have killer prices on a stock cap/rotor/coil, looks like I can get all three for about $30. I'm gonna go that route. Anyone wanna buy an Accel coil? I'll have it in today and see if that fixes the problem.

Adam,

No grease on the rotor button, nothing goes there. There should be the pin, a washer, and a spring that fits on it up in the cap where the coil makes contact. No grease.

The Finale has never seen anything higher octane than 89 and I've never had a problem. It runs fine on 87, but 89 (10% Ethanol) is a little cheaper here so that's what we run.

John

So here I am assembling the cap/rotor/coil again.
1) The new coil (Wells, OE-style) has a white, red, and black wire coming off of it. Am I supposed to just clip the black wire? It also gives me a ground strap, which fits fine.
2) The coil sits on the spring side of the pin, the other end of the pin goes through the bushing, then also through the cap to the rotor part, right? In this new cap, the pin doesn't make direct contact with the rotor - it doesn't go down far enough. What gives?
I bet this is like trying to teach a four year old quantum mechanics I'm one of those round-peg-square-hole guys.

I have never used any dielectric in the cap, don't know what it would be good for except maybe keep the washer from sticking the coil and cap together after a few years. I wouldn't worry about that.

Here is an exploded view, in the proper order, of how the pieces go together

You put the pin in the rubber washer so the spring sticks through the washer and the pin will lay in the cap when installed.

This is what you want to see on the bottom

And this is what you want to see on the top before you drop the coil on

Double check your firing order and that you have the #1 wire in the right spot. Firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

John Stricker

OK now I'm really confused. We got to installing the cap/rotor (we used the same Accel coil since nobody in town carried coil covers in stock, and the Accel one had a built in cover) and copied the same firing order. The car did the same thing with the ALDL jumpered - you turn it more and more toward 10 BTDC and it sounded like it was getting too far retarded. It ran OK at 10 degrees BTDC so we thought what the hell, let's try it. Pulled out the ALDL and tried to start it - wouldn't start. Cranked the distributor 30 degrees clockwise and it fired up, with the same crappy idle, although it wasn't as bad. Still died after about a minute, just like before. We checked firing order - and that's where we started getting confused. It was all messed up!.. so we went by the Chilton's manual and put the distributor parallel to the cylinder banks (about where it was when we finished putting it to 10 degrees BTDC), pulled all the plug wires out, and connected them as per the Chilton's instructions. Jumpered ALDL, tried to start.. nothing. Now it doesn't even run. John, did you do something weird with the firing order? We checked before we ripped all of them out (probably should have written the previous firing order down.......) and it wasn't even like they were all off by one or two. The actual order wasn't correct. The only thing I can think of is the distributor is now off by 90, 180, or 270 degrees.. also, when we had the #1 cylinder at TDC, the distributor was "pointing" at igniting what would now be cylinder #8. Agh! My next swap is going to be a 1 cylinder Briggs & Stratton.

[This message has been edited by Wipe0ut (edited 01-21-2006).]

Are you sure you were doing them the right direction?

There is nothing to do "weird" about the firing order. That's kind of set by how the pistons hang on the crankshaft.

You need to start over. Bring the engine up to TDC on the compression stroke. If you have to take the #1 plug out to tell when it's coming up on compression then that's what you have to do. Bring it up to TDC compression #1. Take the Distributor cap off and see where the rotor is pointed. I like to make a mark on the distributor body so I know roughly where it is. Put the cap back on and find out which tower is closest to where the rotor was pointed. If you have to, rotate the body just a bit so ONE of the towers is lined up as perfectly as it can be. Now in spite of what the book might show as to which tower should be #1, it doesn't matter. The tower that the rotor lines up with when the engine is at TCD on the compression stroke on #1 cylinder IS your #1 plug wire.

Put your #1 wire on that tower. Now carefully work around the distributor, one at a time, until you have all the plug wires reconnected.

When I took the Finale down to Osage Beach this summer about halfway there I started having what seemed to be an Ignition module dying. I limped it to a little town where, of course, the GM dealer had just closed. Made it down the road another 25 miles and found an Autozone where I bought a module. I found that it seemed to want to keep running if I cracked the decklid and it was dark, so I slowly limped it the rest of the way to Osage Beach. The next day, I replaced the module and the car wouldn't start. We went to a GM dealer there and found that there was 1 GM module in all of MO and it was, of course, at the dealership I'd stopped at the night before and was closed. As luck would have it, though, Sandi was on her way down with the Riviera and I caught her 15 miles from the off ramp to that town, so she drove in and picked the module up and brought it down. I replaced the Autozone (wells) module with a GM and it still wouldn't start. Ed Parks had parked his 4.9 beside me and kindly offered to let me take whatever I wanted off of his car to find out what was wrong. I pulled the coil off his car and put it in and the Finale started instantly.

Now, what happened? Did the coil fail? Obviously. Why? Just because? Maybe. Or did my driving over 100 miles with a bad ICM burn it out? Maybe. Or was it two simultaneous failures? (When I got home I put the original module in and the car would not start, but it did with the Autozone). I don't know. I do know this. Don't assume anything. Start from scratch and do it right.

Remember, Adam, the car ran fine for almost 1,000 miles after it left here. Something has happened between then, and now. You've been messing with the timing for a long time now and you say now the firing order is all messed up. Well, it couldn't have run fine for 1,000 miles with the firing order messed up. Think logically. Make sure you're counting the cylinders with the proper rotation and with the correct firing order and go from there.

Let me know if you need anything else. I have a couple of extra coil covers, if you want one for a stock coil.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Wipe0ut: OK now I'm really confused. We got to installing the cap/rotor (we used the same Accel coil since nobody in town carried coil covers in stock, and the Accel one had a built in cover) and copied the same firing order. The car did the same thing with the ALDL jumpered - you turn it more and more toward 10 BTDC and it sounded like it was getting too far retarded. It ran OK at 10 degrees BTDC so we thought what the hell, let's try it. Pulled out the ALDL and tried to start it - wouldn't start. Cranked the distributor 30 degrees clockwise and it fired up, with the same crappy idle, although it wasn't as bad. Still died after about a minute, just like before. We checked firing order - and that's where we started getting confused. It was all messed up!.. so we went by the Chilton's manual and put the distributor parallel to the cylinder banks (about where it was when we finished putting it to 10 degrees BTDC), pulled all the plug wires out, and connected them as per the Chilton's instructions. Jumpered ALDL, tried to start.. nothing. Now it doesn't even run. John, did you do something weird with the firing order? We checked before we ripped all of them out (probably should have written the previous firing order down.......) and it wasn't even like they were all off by one or two. The actual order wasn't correct. The only thing I can think of is the distributor is now off by 90, 180, or 270 degrees.. also, when we had the #1 cylinder at TDC, the distributor was "pointing" at igniting what would now be cylinder #8. Agh! My next swap is going to be a 1 cylinder Briggs & Stratton.