Well I must have gotten something wrong. I sat and thought long and hard about it after reading your post and now I'm a little less confused. I remember the rotor was pointing toward WSW (~200 degrees on a unit circle) at TDC, so I figured if I had the firing order correct, all I had to do was line #1 cylinder (which on the cap was WNW (~160 degrees) up with that. I cranked the cap 45 degrees counterclockwise so the coil "pointed" at the left rear wheel, and it fired right up. Again we tried to time it, and the same damn thing is happening! As you get close to "correct" timing it starts missing a little, and then when you pull the ALDL it doesn't start at all. Hrmph. That doesn't really sound like a coil to me

Adam,

Here is a picture I took of your engine on the cradle.

Note the orientation of the distributor in this picture. We may have adjusted the timing a bit, but we never had the distributor out of the engine so that should be very close to how it looks when in proper time. You can orient that by the grooves in that accel coil as they run pretty much perpendicular to the valve covers.

Now if that makes it to where you have to twist it 45 degrees, then something has happened. Your plug wires are on wrong, or you do have a bad timing chain (not likely), or you've had the distributor out of the engine.

I told you in the last post that I thought you needed to start over. Get the engine up on #1 compression stroke TDC. Take the cap of. Mark for sure the position of the rotor. Put the cap on and verify which terminal that's pointing to. Individually verify each and every wire (that they are not only all good, but that the wire that goes to #1 spark plug is on the #1 terminal, it's very easy to mix them up as they run around the engine.

You're talking about this thing pointing here and that thing pointing there and it really doesn't matter. If you could mechanically do it you could twist the distributor 180 degrees and then re-order your plug wires and time it correctly. The rotor follows a circle path in a set order and as long as your firing order is correct it will run, if everything else is correct. Speaking of which, are you SURE you are going the right direction around the distributor (which is COUNTER CLOCKWISE, BTW, as looking down on the rotor from the top)? When you have the cap off, before you get it up to #1 TDC, crank it over for a second and watch which way the rotor is turning, then you know for sure.

John Stricker

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Wipe0ut: Well I must have gotten something wrong. I sat and thought long and hard about it after reading your post and now I'm a little less confused. I remember the rotor was pointing toward WSW (~200 degrees on a unit circle) at TDC, so I figured if I had the firing order correct, all I had to do was line #1 cylinder (which on the cap was WNW (~160 degrees) up with that. I cranked the cap 45 degrees counterclockwise so the coil "pointed" at the left rear wheel, and it fired right up. Again we tried to time it, and the same damn thing is happening! As you get close to "correct" timing it starts missing a little, and then when you pull the ALDL it doesn't start at all. Hrmph. That doesn't really sound like a coil to me

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I told you in the last post that I thought you needed to start over. Get the engine up on #1 compression stroke TDC. Take the cap of. Mark for sure the position of the rotor. Put the cap on and verify which terminal that's pointing to. Individually verify each and every wire (that they are not only all good, but that the wire that goes to #1 spark plug is on the #1 terminal, it's very easy to mix them up as they run around the engine. I basically did start over. They're now in the correct order (they must have been before too, I just got confused I guess), just the distributor is turned differently. You're talking about this thing pointing here and that thing pointing there and it really doesn't matter. If you could mechanically do it you could twist the distributor 180 degrees and then re-order your plug wires and time it correctly. The rotor follows a circle path in a set order and as long as your firing order is correct it will run, if everything else is correct. Speaking of which, are you SURE you are going the right direction around the distributor (which is COUNTER CLOCKWISE, BTW, as looking down on the rotor from the top)? When you have the cap off, before you get it up to #1 TDC, crank it over for a second and watch which way the rotor is turning, then you know for sure. That's what I'm saying - that's what I realized last night. That's exactly what we did. I'm positive I have it right - I posted last time that the car ran just like it did before! If I had it backward it wouldn't run. I could take the coil off again and move every plug wire counterclockwise two places, then turn the cap back to where it was and it would be identical to the way it was before. It wouldn't make a difference. I will do that next time I'm in the garage just to put it back the way it was, but it won't remedy the problem.

dude, it REALLy sounds to me like your timing chain is either loose or skipping entirely.. with the distributor cap off, manually turn the crank shaft with a breaker bar and a socket that fits the crank bolt, there should be little or no play between truning the crank and the distrubutor spinning. if you turn the crank and you can move it a few inches before the distributor starts turning, your timing chain needs to be replaced..
anyways.. good luck..

I'm 99% sure it's not the timing chain but that's an easy enough test so we'll have to try it. Not tonight though - I need some sleep

OK bump for an update: replaced the ECM and it didn't fix it. Here's what happens when I try to time the vehicle (in set timing mode with A&B jumpered).

Listen to how well the car idles with the timing off, set by ear (I change it in the video closer to 10 degrees BTDC and it gets crappy):
http://v8fiero.net/upload/poopcar1.avi

Then listen to the timing while it's at 10 degrees BTDC.. and then me advancing the timing back to about 20 degrees BTDC where it runs better again.
http://v8fiero.net/upload/poopcar2.avi

One thing that I don't believe I've checked yet is the MAP sensor.. hmm. The timing chain makes the rotor spin as soon as I move the harmonic balancer, so it's not that.

[This message has been edited by Wipe0ut (edited 03-07-2006).]

Bump again: replaced the ignition module and that didn't do anything. Replaced the MAP sensor and it seems better when you blip the throttle (still stumbles a little but not as bad), but it still idles like absolute crap. At idle it misfires pretty badly and if you hold it at about 2000 rpm you can hear it popping. Idles at about 1600 when you're moving with the gear select in neutral, and between 500 and 1100 in neutral when you're at a light. In drive at a light it will sometimes stall from the idle going crazy. The idle gets worse the warmer it gets, and after half an hour of driving the cooling fan turns on. Last time I drove it a long distance it overheated.

This is frustrating >:O

Bump to keep it on the first page.. anyone have any more ideas?

I really need help with this........... anyone? :/

quote Haha about the SES light I don't know either - it's been a while since I've had an instrument cluster in this guy

You may be having rough idle due to not having the IP cluster in. The alternator needs to see the light bulb in the dash to work correctly. This is PURLEY conjecture on my part, and would make sense to me too since you had a recent thread about your Optima going bad.

I think you've had some pretty heavyweight help here in this thread- Rockcrawl, jstricker, and others. They've given a lot of REALLY valuable help. I think your answer probably lies in this thread somewhere.

I don't remember seeing what kind of shape the rotor was in. If the button was burned off, you may have a problem with the rotor as well. I also wonder if your distributor might be a tooth off as someone else suggested.

Just my opinion, I think your timing chain is fine as the timing line was very stable in the video. A stretched chain can cause the timing mark to move around erratically which it doesn't seem to do.

-Rick

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 03-10-2006).]

The aux gauge pod has been plugged in, because conjecture or no conjecture, my alternator wouldn't charge with the gauge pod unplugged. I have no idea why. I have all the gauges plugged in again, by the way. It still does the idling thing. I'll go back through this thread and see if there's anything I haven't done yet.

------------------a recap-----------------------
Fuel Pressure
-->43 psi ignition on, 39 psi crank, 43 psi ignition off for hours.

Timing chain
-->Removed cap and coil and wiggled the rotor. Moves barely, and if I turn it right with some force it moves another "notch", but goes back when I release it.

Timing on the wrong cylinder
-->Corrected problem.

Timing using incorrect markings
-->Corrected problem.

Harmonic balancer walking
-->TDC on #1 cylinder makes the harmonic balancer notch line up with 0 degrees BTDC.

Pitted ignition cap
-->Replaced cap.

ECM
-->Replaced ECM.

MAP
-->Replaced MAP. Helped with blips of throttle, did not change idle condition.

SES light on
-->SES light not on.

Plug wires
-->Vehicle runs fine in set timing mode.

Coil
-->Coil tested OK, will swap with another to make sure.

Throttle Position Sensor
-->Have yet to test.

ECT sensor
-->Have yet to test.

IAT sensor
-->Have yet to test.

Looks like it's down to the sensors. When I originally read your post, John, I was thinking "MAP" and didn't even notice you listed the others. I will scantool those at Autozone if that will work.. I could use a voltmeter here but I don't know what I'm looking for.

[This message has been edited by Wipe0ut (edited 03-10-2006).]

Yeah, it's this thread again. I really don't mean to be such a pain in the ass but it's really frustrating with spring approaching to not have a fully working summer car. I replaced the TPS today, dialed it in at 0.500 V with the throttle resting on the throttle stop screw.. extended the ISC and moved it til it read 1.200 V.. went through the entire idle learn procedure, and it's doing the same damn thing as it was before. I don't know what to test for ECT or IAT, and I am kind of doubtful that one of those is my problem. Distributors don't skip teeth, do they..? It was low on tranny fluid so I filled it back up, but that didn't fix anything..

Can I have the whole distributor in a different orientation (off a tooth) and still make the engine run well, or would it cause these problems? I don't want to pull it off with the risk of messing something else up until I know it's a possibility.

If someone's willing to come down and help me fix this there's money involved.. I cannot believe I'm having such a problem with this car.

[This message has been edited by Wipe0ut (edited 03-20-2006).]

Update: It works!!!!! I had purchased an ignition coil and then returned it without trying it on the vehicle.. I stole Kyle's (arte444) coil from his 4.9 and it runs great now, with only a slight hesitation when I mash the throttle in neutral. Thank all of you for your help, and especially John (jstricker) as we have been e-mailing back and forth. John if I could give you another + I would, you've been a total help to me.

Someone call me a moron, please

Glad ya got it fixed. Joe

OK, you're a moron.

But I'm glad you got it running right and you're welcome.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Wipe0ut: Update: It works!!!!! I had purchased an ignition coil and then returned it without trying it on the vehicle.. I stole Kyle's (arte444) coil from his 4.9 and it runs great now, with only a slight hesitation when I mash the throttle in neutral. Thank all of you for your help, and especially John (jstricker) as we have been e-mailing back and forth. John if I could give you another + I would, you've been a total help to me. Someone call me a moron, please