I am going to move this thread to Technical Discussion & Questions instead of the chat.

previese post https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/054379.html

long story short,
my right side axle came out of my 88 gt Fiero with a 5 speed and, I have tooken it all apart and found a bearing has failed

as you can see the small parts on the left and on top are what is left of that bearing,
and it killed my seal ( part on the bottom ). as well as I found that part on the right floating on the shaft beween the seal and the axle out side of the seal, dose that supose to be attached to the axle.
or is also part of what is left of the failed bearing and was push through the seal it is a bit bent,
I will get pictures of the inside later today. dose eny one have a exploded view of this section.
I am not shier if this is a stock bearing or is it a Transmission Axle Support Bearings that rodneydickman.com sells. that faild

when I look into the trans I see a sleeve about a inch or two long and then farther in is a nother bearing that looks ok.

wht do you guys think??

The bearing was visible right at the axle opening?

If so it was one of those add on bearings.

Depending on just what is going on it could be just the addon bearing or very likely the trans has serious internal problems.

The Addon bearing is ment to supliment the internal bearings. If the internal bearings are bad, very common on old units, then the addon bearing is going to load in ways that the bearing axle and trans ain't gonna like.

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ok got the new pictures ,

and a better picture of the parts that fell out

so it is the addon then, you can see in the picture that my inner bearing is in good shape,
I was having no problem with the trans when I notest that I had oil on my drive way.

how about the part on the right that I found on the outside on the seal? part of the addon bearing?

should I get another addon bearing with the new seal? has any one ells had problem with they's bearing,

so what do you guys see in the pictures?

That's an add-on bearing. You need to split the case to get to the real bearings. See Rodney Dickman's site for instructions.

is thier still some of the addon in the casing that I have to remove before installing a new one, ?

That I can tell...

The hole looks clear. Hard to see in the picture.

The problem tho is how off center the part is inside the hole. If that part in there is really as off center as it looks or has play in it then there are major internal problems. IE the differential bearings have failed. Such a failure is pretty certain to kill off the addon bearing.

Stick the axle back into the hole and see if it moves up & down and/or front & back A very tiny movement is ok but anything more than that means big trouble.

hier is a nothier shot of the hole, it is not infront of the hole exactly, I took it on a angle,
but i did find the sleve movable not shier if the bearing moves also but i did find the sleve off set and was able to move it back to center, i dont now how much ,

so i should put the shaft in all the way with out a seal ?

The differential is supported by two Timken tapered roller bearing. The races are pressed into the case ( one in each half). The cage with the rollers is pressed onto the differential. Behind one of the races there is a selective size shim. The shim thickness is selected to put about 0.005" of preload in the bearings when the case it buttoned up. When these bearings are in good shape there should be no detectable movement of the differential in the case. If you can move the portion of the differential that is splined inside back and forth, the differential bearings are gone. What you are referring to as the sleeve may be part of the failed add-on bearing.

It is not that much work to take the case apart to inspect the bearings. Even if the differential bearings seemed tight from the outside I would take the transaxle apart to at least inspect the bearings. They are not that expensive, ~$30. However it does take a good puller to remove them and a hydraulic press to install.

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 11-03-2005).]

leave the seal out... you want to feel all the play in it. From what you just said I'm fairly sure the dif bearings are bad. I'm pretty sure that "sleeve" is part of the dif itself and should not have moved.

thanks guys I will get under thier after work tomorow and put the axle in, I do want to check if thier is more of that addon bearing in thier, you can see in the parts I am showing thier looks like thier should be more parts like the outer case of the addon, in the picture that is the inner rase on the top of the picture,
i just think thier should have been more parts,

we shall see

[This message has been edited by jsshark1 (edited 11-03-2005).]

I am still at work waiting to go home and put that axle in dose some one have a picture of the axle hole with out the seal, I would like to see what should be thier or not if I can see any thing that is diffrent I will try to pull it out since it would probubly be part of the addon bearing,
as well as I have no idea what I should be seeing,

[This message has been edited by jsshark1 (edited 11-04-2005).]

quote Originally posted by jsshark1: no luck I got the axle in and I can still move it up and down a lot

Bad news.

quote Originally posted by jsshark1: do I have to pull the hole trans out and pull off the motor to replace the bearing inside,

Yes

quote Originally posted by jsshark1: split the case to get to the real bearings can I do that with the trans still in place.

No

quote Originally posted by jsshark1: I will go see what I can read at Rodney Dickman's site and see what I can learn I am just going to have to get another book, I will find my old one monday can any one point me to a good thread on the same subject,

You might try a search of the archives.

quote Originally posted by jsshark1: I was hopping to get my fiero back on the road this weekend,

Sorry, not going to happen.

quote Originally posted by jsshark1: I read his site and it did not state if you can do that still in the car it just said it was easy, any coments would be grate on how to attack this smartly, I have to get my fiero back on the road ( or should i just replace the hole thing)

Getrag?, it is more cost effective to repair what you have.
From the first picture of the carrier bearing with the seal removed I thought that the bearing inside was toast due to the chips of missing steel from the inner cage of the bearing.

thanks Indiana_resto_guy,

I will start crying now

you will have to excuse me

I will now start reserching how to remove the motor and trans,
" I want my fiero back this VW beadle is killing me :demond:"

I was going to do a 3800 superscharge swap next summer,
I havent even found the motor yet.

if any thing, this will prepair me for that swap.

The only way you are driving by Monday is if you have another trans. That one needs major parts and they have to be installed correctly or the thing will die really fast.

You don't need to drop the engine... You don't even want to drop the engine if you can avoid it. You do need to support it from above very carefully, which will require making supports etc. After that you will drop the cradle and then remove the transmission. It sounds complicated but it really is the easy way out with all the Fiero transmissions.

Take the cradle down with the lower control arms. leave the rest of the suspension hanging off the strut. You'll need both axles out but I'd guess you've already figured that bit out.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 11-05-2005).]

I have been looking for another one but have had not luck in the north CA

sound good your right I dont want to pull the engin I will look around the ariea again to see if i can find another trans but if I have this one out I mite as well just fix this one,

you say it's a lot of parts invalved but Sanderson wrote it was around 30 bucks.

how much am I looking at in parts? I would be doing all the work my self, if I have to have a shop just press the bearing in that's what I will do.
every thing else I will be doing

quote Originally posted by jsshark1: I have been looking for another one but have had not luck in the north CA sound good your right I dont want to pull the engin I will look around the ariea again to see if i can find another trans but if I have this one out I mite as well just fix this one, you say it's a lot of parts invalved but Sanderson wrote it was around 30 bucks. how much am I looking at in parts? I would be doing all the work my self, if I have to have a shop just press the bearing in that's what I will do. every thing else I will be doing

The bearings are $30. If you have a lot of slop in the bearings there's a good chnace that the output shaft pinion and differential ring gear have been damaged. If this is the case you're looking at a lot of money and will also likely have trouble finding someone local who knows whayt they're doing to rebuild it. I've gotten a couple of FWD Getrag out of a local u-pull-it for ~$110. www.drivetrain.com sells rebuilt Getrags for about $1000 plus shiping That should help define the range of possibilities for a replacement.

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 11-05-2005).]

Thanks Sanderson

you saved me from the search of the day, after thinking about it, that is the way I wanted to go is rebilt,
I want no problems with my trany when I finish my engin swap next summer I will look around the shop around hier first, in Concord CA
some one mite have one in stock, I now I have a 5 speed Getrags, is what I have to ask for at the trany shops? or is thier a number also I need to say?

The new plan is to be ready for a trany swap on thanksgiving weekend, 4 days, should be a peace of cake
the guy i got my car from told me he changed the clutch not long before I got it, wansent shier he did any work on the trany but finding that addon bearing make me feel that thier mite be a decent clutch in thier so I think I will use the same one that is in thier till summer.

the one part that I am worried about is when it was said about supporting the mottor (You do need to support it from above very carefully, which will require making supports etc.) is thier any threads that show some one that has made motor suppors, and since I see ( carefully) that gets me nerves that thier is some thing I can brake of realy mess up if I dont now what I am doing-

[This message has been edited by jsshark1 (edited 11-05-2005).]

You can break things. You can get killed. All depends how baddly you mess up and if you are under it when it falls.

I think there are a couple thread that show how people have built engine supports. The main things is that the support and engine must not be able to slip even when you hit it with something, which is almost certain to happen while you work.

The metal GM support tool for this job had feet that locked onto the left strut tower and the frame by the battery. There are two strong hooks with big wing nuts that you'd hang the engine from. The support tool can effectivly lock the engine in it's mounted location so you can do whatever to the cradle and transmission.

Suspending the engine eliminates all the issues of unplugging/hooking hoses electrical etc. You'll only have to dismoung the clutch slave and shiftt cables. (Tie up the slave so it isn't hanging off the hose.)

There are various designations for the Muncie Getrag and three different version of clutch mechanisms:

Here are various names:

HM282
MG2 ( this is an RPO code)
NVG 5TM40
NVT550

Early on the transaxle was built by Muncie. In later years by New Venture Gear which is a GM Chrysler joint venture. It may be that GM rolled Muncie into this JV.

The free different version of clutch mechanism:

1) External slave cylinder and external lever ( like the Fiero set-up)
2) External slave but with the clutch fork lever inside the bellhousing ( see it a lot on Quad 4's)
3) Hydraulic throw-out bearing i.e. the slave cylinder and throw-out bearing are an integral unit and everything is inside the belhousing

The type 1 was used early in the 87-94 production run, type 2 in the middle and type 3 at the end. Rodney Dickman sells an adapter to use the type 2 in a Fiero. Type 3 could be used but you'd have to deal with the plumbing for the hydraulic line. Sil-brazing on pipe fittings and then running AN hose is one option to deal with this.

I can drop the engine/transaxle/cradle in 3 hours and so I've never really tried dropping the cradle and transaxle and leaving the engine in the car. Potentially you save some time but you're going to have the car up on jack stands along with the engine supported from on top while you try to wrestle the cradle and transaxle back onto the engine while putting it back together. And you have to get the splines on the input shaft plugged into the clutch disk which can add to the struggle. With the engine out of the car installing the transaxle on to the engine is no big deal.

There's also a way to remove the transaxle through the wheel well and leave the cradle in the car. IIRC Ed Parks has these instructions on this FieroFactory website.

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 11-05-2005).]

for Trivia... I think NVG some if not all stuff is/was made at New Process Gear in Syracuse NY. Chrysler owned NPG makes/made allot of stuff for Ford AMC and GM. It always got interesting when UAW had a stike on Chrysler because NPG had to stay open and make parts for the other customers. This created allot of friction between guys that had to picket and others that were required to work. And no the guys that had to work weren't Scabs. It was an extremely complicated situation. (I used to live about a mile from NPG.)

I just called drivetrain and they dont hav one
I got to find one and have it at home before the Thankgiving
any other sugetions whier I can get one ?? thanks

If you had a seal then you didn't have an external bearing like Rodneys. They replace the seal. I guess you already know you need a new tranny. Also if you ran that one like that the little pieces of metal may have gone thru all the tranny and it may be trashed.

I desided to remove the hole thing at one, motor trans and candle,
can any one please point me to a good thread to help me do this,
like info on what needs to be removed before lifting the body off the system,
what can I use to lift the body up ?, can I use the stude from the struts ??
I shier was hopping that I would not have to unhook the muffler system till it was out of the car.
that is a can of worms I have been waiting to open, mite as well fix that leak. no more " why dose your car sound like a lawnmower

quote Originally posted by jsshark1: I desided to remove the hole thing at one, motor trans and candle, can any one please point me to a good thread to help me do this, like info on what needs to be removed before lifting the body off the system, what can I use to lift the body up ?, can I use the stude from the struts ?? I shier was hopping that I would not have to unhook the muffler system till it was out of the car. that is a can of worms I have been waiting to open, mite as well fix that leak. no more " why dose your car sound like a lawnmower

The simplest method for lifting the back of the car is to lay a "4 x 4" across the beams of the unit body just ahead of the cradle and then jack it up in the center with a large floor jack.

The second method is peel back the carpet in top of the trunk to expose the cross member. Use a short piece of chain (~3/8") with hooks at each end to go in the holes in the cross memebr and then pick up of the chain with an engine hoist. The down side of this is that the legs of the engine hoist tend to intefere with getting the cradle out once the back of the car is up in the air.

An A-frame or overhead hoist with the chain is ideal.

Harbor Freight sells a cheap furniture dolly that will work to roll the cradle for occasional use.

The exhaust system will come out with the cradle. There may be a couple of straps that attach to the body to remove.

The struts can be unbolted at the top and come out with the cradle or the knuckles removed so that the struts stay in the car.

Thanks Sanderson

I was thinking of using my engine hoist but I can see the problem now,

I think I will try the beam and jack method,

when I take the wiring apart do I have to take them off at the component or can I just pull apart the connector at the fire wall and it all comes out together

recommendations and what to look out for, for first time removing candle is welcomed.

thanks guys

quote Originally posted by jsshark1: Thanks Sanderson I was thinking of using my engine hoist but I can see the problem now, I think I will try the beam and jack method, when I take the wiring apart do I have to take them off at the component or can I just pull apart the connector at the fire wall and it all comes out together recommendations and what to look out for, for first time removing candle is welcomed. thanks guys

Unplug the connectors from the ECM and feed them back through the firewall. There's a D shaped clip to remove from the firewall grommet. This way nothing has to be unplugged on the engine. The Haynes manual tells you to unplug everything at the engine. That is not the easiest way

Unplug the C500 connector in the engine compartment. This is on the firewall in an '84 and over by the battery in later years. The C500 connector is held in by a machine screw with a 1/4" head (one of the few non-metric fasteners in a Fiero). Half the male end of the C500 connector is engine harness. The other half is rear lights etc. The engine harness half of the plug needs to be separated out so that it can stay with the engine. There is a ground on the driver's side deck lid hinge that is easy to miss. IIRC there are also grounds over in the C500 area and a power distribution block that need to come apart as well.

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 11-15-2005).]

sweet , that is what I was hopping for, just main connectors,

I already have the suspension apart ( man , that 30MM nut killed two breaker bars, luckily they where craftsman, it was just a another trip to sears)

I will attempt to have it out by Saturday night.

big problem is I still haven’t found my trany.( looks like I will have to get this one rebuilt)

I got a good questions, since I am planning to put in a 3800 motor next summer or so is their a better trans I should be putting in, I do want a 5 speed , will this 5 speed Getrag after being rebuilt work just fine? or is their something better with out that much modification to put in.

I have all the wiring off of the computer and fed it though the fire wall, I took all the cables off of the trany, both drive shafts out,

at this point I guess what I have left is the cooling lines ( I am going to detach them at the lower driver side fire wall )and the A/C lines, and the wires that goes to the cluster next to the battery.

should I take the A/C lines off at the compressor, or should I drop the motor and remove the pump.
not like my A/C works, I be leave I need a compressor but not right now, and the system is full.

am I missing something before I try to lower the candle this weekend.

I still haven't found a trany

I finally go my trany off of eBay, a guy down in Hollywood, CA 12 hour drive and it's home,

I am all ready to put it in on the week I have off for Christmas, I want to install those support bearing but with the holidays I have to wait to order them till after new years,

they can be installed wile the trany is in place????

Yes, but like all things they're easier to do off the car.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by jsshark1: I finally go my trany off of eBay, a guy down in Hollywood, CA 12 hour drive and it's home, I am all ready to put it in on the week I have off for Christmas, I want to install those support bearing but with the holidays I have to wait to order them till after new years, they can be installed wile the trany is in place????

Just my $0.02 worth but my opinion on the "helper" bearings is "if it ain't broke don't fix it". If you go to the Timken website you will see that the same tapered roller bearings are used in many differentials and transaxles. 300 pages worth IIRC. I think the notion that the bearings are undersized for the Getrag is a myth. Sure there habe beeen failures but how many of these cases were due to low oil level or degraded oil from lack of changing it. I'd split the case on the new transaxle you bought and inspect the bearings. If they don't so signs of wear stick it back together and run it. Installing the "helper" bearings creates another possible leak point.

the new trany suppose to have only 63,000 miles on it, I seen with my own eyes the odometer.
I wanted to change the seals any way before installing the shafts so I thought mite as well just put in the seals with the support bearing,

why do you say: -Installing the "helper" bearings creates another possible leak point -
isen't it the same thing as putting in a new seal since the support bearing and the seal are one part, have you found them to leak? have they had problems with them??

I am planning on repairing or rebuilding my old trany and put it away for a rainy day, ( it was way to hard to find this one) my old trany works perfect in all gears, is their a rebuild kit for theys trany??
my old one never popped out of any gears ( I seen some ware they pop out of gear ) I will take the parts that needs to be pressed in to a shop and do what I can my self. it would be nice to have it sitting there rebuilt waiting to go in when I do my engine swap, I am still looking for my motor 3800 supercharged, I already have two cars with V8's 68 RS Camaro and my one day finished 69 SS convertible camaro that is sitting on the back burner since my Fiero went down
so I need something that is a bit better on gas

heir is a pic of one of my toys with the V8

I have to bump this through again for the quetion :
is their a rebuild kit for theys trany's?

and ask about: bearings creates another possible leak point.

or is it better to just get the stock seal?

Hi

I was going to change the seals on the trany before installing,
I wanted to install those with the support bearing in it, I am looking at the seal that is already in the trany and I think it already has one in it but I cant tell and I dont want to try to pull it out to look, the markings on the seal in - NATIONAL - 8631156 - 87- can some one tell me if it is or not by this information. I dont know how it supose to look like in thier since my was all busted up .

I finally got a brake in the weather, I got my motor and trany out,
one of the 4 bolts took me 4 hours to get out
front left , it had rust on the inside around the bolt that would not give, frustrated but still got it out.
I got the trany off of the motor now and I don’t know if I want to change my clutch,
the guy I got it from said he changed it recently,
what I found was, on the presser plated it has: LUK INC. JS PATENT N 38" 544 4273228
on the clutch disk it has: LD1032 OK16B 15:45 USA, are they stock parts or did he change them. the clutch disk still has .048 to .050 on it
I measured all the rivets on both sides nothing less then .048. dose any one know what they measure new. every thing looks in good shape and I did not have any problem with the clutch.

thanks

I have the trany all attached to the motor and before reinstalling it in to the car I wanted to take care of a exhaust leak I have on my # 2 piston.

I got lucky and non of the bolts broke, it looks like some one has been their not long ago I found the flange nut drilled out and a loose nut in it's place.
but I did find this

is this repairable? looks hard getting it strait

not putting it together this weekend ,

I found oil coming out of one or two of the exhaust manifold holes is that normal ??

[This message has been edited by jsshark1 (edited 01-12-2006).]

O boy I got most of the Fiero back together, I say 95%, and the news said no rain for the week

so do I have to worry about what type of oil to put in to my 5speed Getrag ?

any GM standard trany oil ?

I learned a lot after replacing the transaxles seals, I know now that in my pictures of what spilled out of my old trany was just the melt down of the transaxles bearing and their was no after market support bearings and seal installed, as well as their was not one installed in the new trany,

those support bearing and seals was hard to get in, I don’t look forward to a day I would have to take one of them back out, and I did have the right tool to install them , their is no installing them with out one, I don’t thing the seal would survive it.

Use GM synchromesh fluid, availible from GM for ~$14/quart. Also, there is a pennzoil Synchromesh that meets the same standard for ~$7/quart. It is availible at some larger Autozone stores. The tranny will shift smoother and better than ever before.

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Thanks Aus!
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