The average guy here in his low to mid 20s dont have the capability to do everything they want to do.
See, here is where I have a problem. Some people on here share the same opinion as you and assume that you have to be in your 40's and 50's before you are capable of knowing anything. By the time I was 26 I had an associates degree in HI-PERFORMANCE Automotive from a University as well as numerous other qualifications and training certificates and in addition, I had already performed many swaps and unique modifications to vehicles. That is why I feel as though it is plain ignorant to assume that intellegence, knowledge, and experience are tied to a person's age. I, for one, can tell you I have been impressed many times by ideas thought up and executed by people younger than me.
To be totally honest and forthcoming, I think this is one of the BIGGEST issues I see with PFF today. People that share the same attitude and/or opinion as you: the attitude that a person's measure of knowledge and experience is linked to age. That kind of mentallity is what turns off and drives away so many people from both this board and the Fiero community. I prefer to come here with an OPEN MIND and ENCOURAGE new ideas people have with the Fiero.
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02:53 PM
skydad Member
Posts: 98 From: Covington, Louisiana, USA Registered: Dec 2004
Quote "Driver side Airbags are known for causing broken arms. This can be a result of how you hold the steering wheel or having you arm blown from the wheel into the door and other interior objects."
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Thats a true statement. A lady friend had a minor accident in a Ford Crown Vic and the driver's airbag deployed, hit her arms which in turn hit her face. The result was a broken arm, broken nose, black eyes, and a lot of pain. As for ABS, I flew airline for 30 years and with the advent of the jets, anti-skid brakes were used to keep from blowing tires. They worked great and allowed the aircraft to stop much faster, even on snow & ice. Of course, these units cost tens of thousands of dollars and I often wondered how the car manufacturers were able to turn out reliable anti-skid(abs) units that would work as well for so much less. Guess they weren't, according to the comments, although the abs brakes on my 2000 Chevy pick up have been absolutely no trouble, but then I have had trouble finding snow & ice to drive on where I live. I'd hate to think how they would work and how reliable they would be on my little "abortion" called a 1987 Fiero.
------------------ Native of Tropical Louisiana, America's Banana Republic
[This message has been edited by skydad (edited 06-27-2005).]
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03:36 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
I dont mean younger ones arent capable of knowing it all. I dont know it all or claim to. A lot of stuff, especially like car stuff, is learned from experience. A 50 year old will have more experience than a 20 year old. Most things to do with a car are learned by doing, not reading. You can read and study for 4 years and get a degree in auto painting, and still not know how to paint a hood if you havent done it. Like ive said before, I know people with a Masters Degree in engineering that dont know how to change their flat tire.
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06:26 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24986 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
I work at Bosch doing chassis controls such as ABS, TCS and ESP, and it is unfortunate that the early ABS systems have jaded so many. Modern ABS systems (and by modern I mean within the last ~8 years) are extremely reliable. They have to be. I have listened to many blast ABS systems, but until you fully understand what they do for you, please don't be so quick to judge. A 1988 Corvette's ABS should not be the basis for your opinion. That is just naive. We work hard to make vehicles safer. We can do things a driver can't do, ever. So keep disabling your ABS, just remember that you could be putting yourself and others in harms way because of a grudge over a 20 year old brake system.
Yeah, I agree... I've got ABS in my 2002 Crown Vic, and my 97 Grand Am. It's come in handy plenty of times. As excellent of a driver as I'd like to pretend that I am, I certainly do not have the skill and attention under a crisis situation to be able to pulse my brakes 100 times a second like my ABS system can. Although I have been known to drive like a maniac when I was far less mature (not that I'm mature now.. but when I was MORE immature)... I've never been in an accident. (with the Fiero as my primary vehicle back then).
I totally don't recommend adding it in a car that wasn't designed for it though....
------------------ Todd, 2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX 1997 Pontiac Grand Am GT 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 5-Speed 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2L) Auto 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE 1981 Pontiac TransAm (sbc 350) 1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
I have ABS on a 95 S10 Blazer and I hate them. I know others who have had the same complaint. No matter what the "research" says, I know that there have been times that ABS have made it HARDER to stop and control the vehicle, particulary in the winter. I can be going hardly fast enough for the speedo to even register as I attempt to pull up next to my mail box on my way home from work, and if there is a combo of snow and slush, the ABS make that annoying "EEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNT" sound and I slide, "slow motion" five feet when I should have stopped--right up against my mail box. Like I said, no matter what anyone says---I don't care. I have friends who have had similar experiences. I hate ABS in the winter. Maybe they work better in the summer or in the rain, but in real life winter situations, I know they can actually make it harder to control and stop a vehicle.
I had the same model year blazer, with exactly the same problem in snow. In fact, I had an incident where I pulled up to a stop on ice/snow (going about 4-5mph cause I knew there would be ice there), and the brake pedal went mush, ABS chattering all the way into half of the intersection. Thank God other people where driving defensively to avoid me. I immediately sold that and contemplated suing GM.
That said, I have a 01 Honda Odyssey (family car) and that ABS / TCS worked like a dream in snow / ice. Saved me from hitting a mailbox or two, whereas I might have hit it using the ol' brake pedal pump.
The idea of ABS, I have been told, is to not necessarily give you a shorted stopping distance, but allow you to control where you go during a hard stop to avoid a collision.
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07:45 PM
Rocky64 Member
Posts: 132 From: Coleman, MI USA Registered: Jul 2003
The idea of ABS, I have been told, is to not necessarily give you a shorted stopping distance, but allow you to control where you go during a hard stop to avoid a collision.
However, brakes are often used for STOPPING. It's true when you lock up the brakes on a non-ABS car that you loose control in a sense. But again, brakes are for stopping. If someone pulls out in front of you, are you going to try and steer around them or just stop? How much time do have to react? Which way would you try to steer if you could which is supposed to be possbile with ABS since the front wheels keep turning instead of locking up? Sometimes all you need to do; have to do, is stop as fast as possible and ABS sometimes prolongs the stop. It really is that simple. I can't believe how long this thread is getting with people trying to defend ABS like it's their mother or something. People on this thread try to explain the anti-ABS stance away with techno-babble---but it's pointless because they don't have a leg to stand on. Now, who is going to quote me in their response... it never ends.
[This message has been edited by Rocky64 (edited 06-27-2005).]
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11:09 PM
Rocky64 Member
Posts: 132 From: Coleman, MI USA Registered: Jul 2003
And in reply to Rodney Dangerfield schtick--younger people not getting respect... Of course there is a correlation between age and knowledge and people's attitudes will never change in regards to that since there is a basis for it. The same people who are young now will feel the same way about it when they get older--as older people feel now. It's along the lines of the "my parents are stupid" thing that a lot of teens go through and when they get older, they realize just how smart their parents really were. I have three degrees and am just finishing my doctorate... Having a degree, as someone pointed out, is great, but it doesn't make up for life expereince. That concept was so important to the founding fathers, they wrote it into the Constitution. As a constitutional matter, you don't even have to graduate from high school, but you have to be 35 years old in order to be president. And people, including high school government students, generally understand that and accept it. Aside from someone suffering dementia, people don't get dumber as they get older--they get smarter/wiser. This is not meant as a slam, but it is common for teens and young people (20's) in general to have a sort of complex about respect but when they get older, they "get it" and that is just the way it works. And so then another generation comes along, those young people are then the older people and the same converstion is had over and over. It's not that big of a deal. Everything is going to be o.k., really. And ABS brakes still suck.
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11:31 PM
Jun 28th, 2005
Shadow_Wolf Member
Posts: 759 From: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada Registered: May 2003
I've had several Blazers over the years (three - first was an '89) and my complaint with my '95 is the very common complaint that ABS sucks in the snow. Vehicles with ABS seem to take longer to stop in the snow--its a common complaint and there is no amount of "yah, buts" that can change the fact that experienced drivers complain about ABS in the winter. Several people in this thread have given similar accounts. I have been driving for 26 years. I have been in ONE accident and it was where I couldn't stop in time. It was a four car pile-up with four cars, all with ABS, in the winter. I have driven three cars with ABS and like 15 without. No accidents all those other years. It's ridiculous that when I'm driving slow enough that the speedo hardly even registers, I slide in the slush for like 10 feet when I would have stopped in a non-ABS vehicle. Again, I don't care what the pro-ABS people say. People who don't like ABS are relying on real world, first hand experiences that no amount of "yah buts" or techno-babble can explain away.
Anyway, Shadow Wolf, I went off on a tanget in relation to your point. You may be right about Blazer brakes, but I still think that ABS in general in the winter is a safety problem.
I recently bought a new car... it will be interesting next winter as it'll be the first winter I've ever had a vehicle with functional ABS & traction control...
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12:58 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
A 50 year old will have more experience than a 20 year old.
I understand where you are coming from. However, I have worked along side many 50 year olds over the years that didn't know as much as they claimed, or maybe they just didn't care.... Whichever the case may be, most of them never pulled a torque wrench out of their toolbox and instead reached for that impact gun or air rachet. More experience, maybe. Maybe more experience in doing the job the WRONG way. But hey, they got it done quicker so they could make more $$$.
A 50 year old will have more experience than a 20 year old. Most things to do with a car are learned by doing, not reading. .
they will have been alive longer and had more opportunity for experience but will not necessarily have had any valid experiences or learned anything from the experience they had
and yes people who have done things tend to know what they do better than people who only read about it -- don't bother asking how many helpless PHD's i know that should probably be wearing velcro shoes and need a big salary so that they can pay everyone else to do the stuff that they have no clue about. they know everythign about nothing.
age means nothing except the potential that person had - not what they made of it... I still have cad files of a toroidal continuously variable transmission i designed when i was 15.. 7 years before toyota pattented a similar design. I've spent most of my life having to either prove myself to older folks or work around them when they felt threatened by young blood. Hell I have a letter of recommendation from the first engineer I worked with at the army proving ground stating that I was a better engineer than guys he'd worked with for the last 13 years.. and thats before I was out of highschool
yeah not everyone my age will be like that - but the same goes for older folks - just because they had the potential for lots of experience and learning, doesn't mean they took advantage of it. then look at the science of learning - the younger a mind is the easier it picks up and learns information - so any new technology will be grasped the best by the younger generation and older folks will have to try harder to know it as well.. computers are a good example of that.
Originally posted by Rocky64: Aside from someone suffering dementia, people don't get dumber as they get older--they get smarter/wiser. This is not meant as a slam, but it is common for teens and young people (20's) in general to have a sort of complex about respect but when they get older, they "get it" and that is just the way it works. And so then another generation comes along, those young people are then the older people and the same converstion is had over and over. It's not that big of a deal. Everything is going to be o.k., really. And ABS brakes still suck.
actually its a proven fact that neurologically the brain is always simplifying itself - conservation of energy in a way.. but any unused information can eventually be lost as the neurons are eliminated from being wasted energy. to really never lose knowledge you have to continue to use it and keep your brain active.. this is why mind games, crossword puzzles, outside thinking, even the arts are so important as they keep your mind from deteriorating over time - there are some very very sharp 90 year olds, and some brain dead 20 year olds - as well as some very sharp 20 year olds and some 90 year olds that only know what they've been imersed in for the last year or so.
they are generalizations all formed in the same way as other ethnic, sociological, cultural generalizations that are often very insulting.. sure they may be true sometimes but the rest of the time they do nothing productive only cause harm
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08:42 AM
PFF
System Bot
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5548 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
When I was in automotive school. Well, we only read books and watched movies, so this could be heresay. We were studying ABS. We only read about it, because in school, they don't ever do hands on learning. We watched a video of the same car, same driver, same course. 3 situations. #1- driver stopped the car from 80mph, disabled abs, and without locking up the tires or losing control #2- Driver stopped the car from 80mph with abs. Tires didn't lock up because of the abs. That means ANTI-LOCKING brake system. #3-Driver stopped from 80mph without abs, but locking the brakes or losing control was allowed
Anyone want to take a stab at the results of this test?
I don't recall the stopping distances.
#1 stopped safely, but further distance than #2 and #3 #2 stopped safely no problems, #3 stopped, but when off into another lane. Wheels locked up and flat spotted the tires. But it had the shortest stopping distance. Even stopped sooner than the ABS equipped car.
take this as you'd like. ABS is a good thing.
For those who think because your older, means your smarter. How well do you work with fuel injection? Or do those break too often, so you'll throw a carb on it so you can fix it yourself?
For those who think because your older, means your smarter. How well do you work with fuel injection? Or do those break too often, so you'll throw a carb on it so you can fix it yourself?
I'm 46, I would rather take the carb off and use a Holley projection type system whenever possible. Fuel injection makes for better cold and hot engine performance and if tuned properly can make more Horsepower than a carb. Carbs can't adjust themselves for altitude neither. I think the saying some of the others were looking for is "there is no substitute for experience". I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything, but I do know enough to do whatever I need to do or where to find the information on how to do it.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 06-28-2005).]
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07:10 PM
Rocky64 Member
Posts: 132 From: Coleman, MI USA Registered: Jul 2003
they are generalizations all formed in the same way as other ethnic, sociological, cultural generalizations that are often very insulting.. sure they may be true sometimes but the rest of the time they do nothing productive only cause harm
There was nothing said in my remarks that is akin to harmful, negative "ethnic, sociological" etc. "generalizations". Unless there is something wrong with a someone, they learn and develop mentally and cognitively as they get older--yes, people get "smarter" or gain knowledge as they learn and experience more which happens over time. Even though I teach developmental psychology, I don't think anybody needs that kind of background to understand a basic fact of life. That's just common sense. I can't believe that someone would even attempt to twist that fact into something negative--unless they are young and have an inferiority complex. Studies are now showing that the brain continues to physically develop and change (as it is still not fully physically mature) in some people into the mid twenties. Researchers say this may partly explain the risk taking behavior resulting in more accidents by younger people as old as 26. There is nothing here to be offended by. What a bleak outlook we would all have if we didn't believe that we could continue to learn and become wiser as we get older. Yes, it is true that people often think they know it all when they are young--like the "my parents are stupid" syndrome. Many of those same people will say later, when they get older, how wrong they were in thinking that. So if someone is a good mechanic at age 26, do they become a worse mechanic when they turn 40? As for the person who is 50 and doesn't use a torque wrench and the 25 year old does--people are their own point of reference. Not everyone has the same experiences--but each person gains experience as they get older. Again, common sense. Sorry to get off the topic of ABS...
[This message has been edited by Rocky64 (edited 06-28-2005).]
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11:12 PM
Rocky64 Member
Posts: 132 From: Coleman, MI USA Registered: Jul 2003
When I was in automotive school. Well, we only read books and watched movies, so this could be heresay. We were studying ABS. We only read about it, because in school, they don't ever do hands on learning. We watched a video of the same car, same driver, same course. 3 situations. #1- driver stopped the car from 80mph, disabled abs, and without locking up the tires or losing control #2- Driver stopped the car from 80mph with abs. Tires didn't lock up because of the abs. That means ANTI-LOCKING brake system. #3-Driver stopped from 80mph without abs, but locking the brakes or losing control was allowed
Anyone want to take a stab at the results of this test?
I
Yes, because most of the complaints posted on here about ABS, or many of them, are in relation to ABS in winter driving conditions.
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11:15 PM
Rocky64 Member
Posts: 132 From: Coleman, MI USA Registered: Jul 2003
Yes, because most of the complaints posted on here about ABS, or many of them, are in relation to ABS in winter driving conditions.
I think the reason why most people who don't like ABS say it doesn't work (in relation to winter driving) is because they think it increases their stopping distance. In reality, without ABS they would just skid or slide on a sheet of ice and lose control (IE: slide into another lane or off the road). ABS doesn't decrease stopping distance and has NEVER been advertised to do that. What it does is ALLOWS for you to MAINTAIN DIRECTIONAL CONTROL of the vehicle in all braking situations. This is proven FACT. Now if someone on here thinks they can outbrake an ABS computer in ALL conditions then good luck with that. But the evidence I have seen says otherwise...
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 06-29-2005).]
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02:06 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Scenario. Your driving on a two lane hiway in the mountains. A car pulls out of a driveway in front of you. Do you slam on the brakes and hope the ABS lets you stop soon enough, or do you let your ABS let you keep your steering control so you can swerve right and over a 2,000 drop off or swerve left into the path of the oncoming semi.
I like my brakes to stop personally. If im going to avoid anyone where swerving is the only way out, I just steer out and keep off the brakes altogether for even better steering control.
On fuel injection. Yes it is more efficient when its working properly, no doubt. If its on my fun driver and goes out completely where it has to be replaced for $1500, I would prefer to swap a carb on it so I can work on it myself. Gas mileage and cold performance arent high on my priority list. I also prefer live axle rear ends. Im old, and have found that simple lasts best. Nascar still races with 60s technology just fine.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-29-2005).]
There was nothing said in my remarks that is akin to harmful, negative "ethnic, sociological" etc. "generalizations". Unless there is something wrong with a someone, they learn and develop mentally and cognitively as they get older--yes, people get "smarter" or gain knowledge as they learn and experience more which happens over time. Even though I teach developmental psychology, I don't think anybody needs that kind of background to understand a basic fact of life. That's just common sense. I can't believe that someone would even attempt to twist that fact into something negative--unless they are young and have an inferiority complex. Studies are now showing that the brain continues to physically develop and change (as it is still not fully physically mature) in some people into the mid twenties. Researchers say this may partly explain the risk taking behavior resulting in more accidents by younger people as old as 26. There is nothing here to be offended by. What a bleak outlook we would all have if we didn't believe that we could continue to learn and become wiser as we get older. Yes, it is true that people often think they know it all when they are young--like the "my parents are stupid" syndrome. Many of those same people will say later, when they get older, how wrong they were in thinking that. So if someone is a good mechanic at age 26, do they become a worse mechanic when they turn 40? As for the person who is 50 and doesn't use a torque wrench and the 25 year old does--people are their own point of reference. Not everyone has the same experiences--but each person gains experience as they get older. Again, common sense. Sorry to get off the topic of ABS...
Oh so now i'm young and have an inferiority complex? huh? just given ya **** man. actually have a healthy dose of self confidence but I do get tired of the bs.
Yes people CAN continue to learn and get smarter but the fact is most people only learn what is essential for their daily lives and the rest is often lost, its not developmental phsycology just neurological. I already ponted out everything else you stated - and made it very clear that everyone has the same potential but just because they are older doesn't mean they had the necessary experience or made use of their potential to learn more. age is only 1 of many factors necessary. a good mechanic at 26 could infact become a worse mechanic at 40 depending on if all they did was oil changes or fell into bad habits and stopped caring or simply didn't keep up with the latest car technology - it happens, just because he got older doesn't mean he took advantage of the previous 14 years.
My father has been working on cars since before I was born - but he now asks me to diagnose problems for him because I have worked on a wider variety of cars with more modern technology.
Pointing out age as a trump card in an argument is what people do when they feel they can't win the argument otherwise.
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08:21 AM
PFF
System Bot
Rocky64 Member
Posts: 132 From: Coleman, MI USA Registered: Jul 2003
I think the reason why most people who don't like ABS say it doesn't work (in relation to winter driving) is because they think it increases their stopping distance. In reality, without ABS they would just skid or slide on a sheet of ice and lose control (IE: slide into another lane or off the road). ABS doesn't decrease stopping distance and has NEVER been advertised to do that. What it does is ALLOWS for you to MAINTAIN DIRECTIONAL CONTROL of the vehicle in all braking situations. This is proven FACT. Now if someone on here thinks they can outbrake an ABS computer in ALL conditions then good luck with that. But the evidence I have seen says otherwise...
I think everyone on this post seems to understand the "proven FACT" about directional control and ABS. The problem is that as you gain one advantage (dircetional control) you lose stopping power. There is no doubt there are situations where you simply need to STOP and ABS can increase how long that takes in the slush/snow.
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09:03 AM
Rocky64 Member
Posts: 132 From: Coleman, MI USA Registered: Jul 2003
Oh so now i'm young and have an inferiority complex? huh? just given ya **** man. actually have a healthy dose of self confidence but I do get tired of the bs.
Yes people CAN continue to learn and get smarter but the fact is most people only learn what is essential for their daily lives and the rest is often lost, its not developmental phsycology just neurological. I already ponted out everything else you stated - and made it very clear that everyone has the same potential but just because they are older doesn't mean they had the necessary experience or made use of their potential to learn more. age is only 1 of many factors necessary. a good mechanic at 26 could infact become a worse mechanic at 40 depending on if all they did was oil changes or fell into bad habits and stopped caring or simply didn't keep up with the latest car technology - it happens, just because he got older doesn't mean he took advantage of the previous 14 years.
My father has been working on cars since before I was born - but he now asks me to diagnose problems for him because I have worked on a wider variety of cars with more modern technology.
Pointing out age as a trump card in an argument is what people do when they feel they can't win the argument otherwise.
Well, I can see that you clearly have entirely missed the point of my posts because you keep framing what I'm saying as if its a slam or something and it is not. It makes me wonder if you even read what I wrote. But when you say "it's not developmental psychology- it's neurological" then I REALLY know you don't understand because it is ALL about developmental psychology which has much to do with neurology as well as environmental factors. Like I said before, I teach psychology. Please go to your local community college and enroll in a life span (developmental) psychology class and then come back and have this conversation when you know what you are talking about. Do you know more now than you did twenty years ago? Or do you wish you could erase all of the learning experiences you've had since then? Like I said before, each person is their own point of reference. Of course some 25 year old could know something that a 50 year old doesn't. It was never my point to argue that. This whole thing is getting just plain silly and the fact that a mature adult, with computer skills, would go on a discussion thread and get all bent out of shape and try to argue against something that is just plain common sense and twist it into some kind of slam.... Now I've seen everything. Regardless of any response, I can see I'm just wasting my time and I might as well as be trying to have a discussion with the wall. Thank God I've never had a problem having this discussion with my "young" students. I'm done with this one. Good luck.
[This message has been edited by Rocky64 (edited 06-29-2005).]
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09:21 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
BAH! we still here?! well, I guess next we will try front wheel drive vs. rear wheel drive thats quite a scenario someone posted a few above. In a no win situation, I'd like to think I'd just slam the stupidest person - in this case the dummy who pulled onto the road. and if I'm lucky, and going fast enough, I can launch him over the 2,000 drop he just pulled out of. and I guarantee all you "I can outbrake ABS" guys would be in no better shape than the "I love my ABS" guys in this little story.
I myself love driving manual everything, RWD. but for the day-2-day driving to work half asleep and driving home drunk, I'll take the power steering, power brakes, ABS, fuel injection, air conditioning & cruise control. I am on both sides of this.
Well, I can see that you clearly have entirely missed the point of my posts because you keep framing what I'm saying as if its a slam or something and it is not. It makes me wonder if you even read what I wrote.
I feel the same way - wondering how you missed the entire point of what I wrote - because my entire point was that the statement of age is pointless and an annoyance
almost everything you've stated has been in agreement with me but in an attempt it seems to say that age by itself is a valid argument - but all your facts stated show otherwise
not a slam.. yet I'm compared to the inteligence of a wall? you really should read your own written work
the only person it seems that is bent out of shape is you.. and yes it really is silly
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:
BAH! we still here?! well, I guess next we will try front wheel drive vs. rear wheel drive
ooh thats a fun one to discuss on an import forum - but then again almost all of them agree that rwd and awd are superior
as for the ABS - sure it can be done - it might perform better or worse depending ont he system used and how well done it was - whether or not its worth it is up to the person doing it.. all the nay sayer jaw flapping gets old and either encourages the person to prove them wrong or drives them away from trying new things
don't know why age was ever entered into the discussion because I know there are plenty of young guys that are far better at fabricating and programming than a lot of older guys - even Rocky would agree with that according to what he's said.
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10:16 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Scenario. Your driving on a two lane hiway in the mountains. A car pulls out of a driveway in front of you. Do you slam on the brakes and hope the ABS lets you stop soon enough, or do you let your ABS let you keep your steering control so you can swerve right and over a 2,000 drop off or swerve left into the path of the oncoming semi.
FACT: ABS allows full braking pressure to reach the wheels at all times until your tire loses cohesion with the road surface. It then reduces braking pressure to that wheel UNTIL cohesion is restored and then allows full braking pressure again. This process occurs many times per second. The problem is people THINK they aren't stopping as fast as they could if the tires were locked up but in reality they are stopping just as fast and the vehicle remains under control at all times. Again, I think some of you people are failing to understand just how ABS works. However it is your car and you do with it what you want...But rest assured, if any one of you slam into my car and I find out you have disabled your ABS system, you better bet you will be getting a letter from my lawyer soon after the accident.
quote
I like my brakes to stop personally. If im going to avoid anyone where swerving is the only way out, I just steer out and keep off the brakes altogether for even better steering control.
It is a proven fact that when ABS first appeared on the market huge problems occured because people tried to pump their brakes or acted in some other incorrect way instead of letting the system do its job. This isn't the first time this type of mentallity appeared. The exact same things were said and happened back when hydraulic brakes replaced cable or mechanical linkage braking systems. Point is, some people just don't like ABS and that is fine. But I would appreciate it if people wouldn't come on here spreading around OPINIONS like they are fact unless they have the proof to back them up.
quote
On fuel injection. Yes it is more efficient when its working properly, no doubt. If its on my fun driver and goes out completely where it has to be replaced for $1500, I would prefer to swap a carb on it so I can work on it myself. Gas mileage and cold performance arent high on my priority list. I also prefer live axle rear ends. Im old, and have found that simple lasts best. Nascar still races with 60s technology just fine.
It cracks me up every time I read a thread where someone removed the EFI from their 2.8 to replace it with 100+ year old technology. The problem is I have never seen a carb ever operate at 100% effecientcy for very long. Sure, you might be able to tune it to run just right for certain conditions but as soon as the weather changes or the engine cools off, its no longer tuned correctly. Nascar still races with 60's technology just fine until someone DIES. The safer barrier wall and HANS device were rejected until Earnhardt met his fate. Carbs will be used in NASCAR until the people in charge retire. Just because NASCAR uses carbs doesn't mean they are better. In fact, they are one of the LAST racing sanctioning bodies that still use carbs. CART, IRL, NHRA, IHRA, etc are all using fuel injection today. It seems to me that none of these latter racing bodies would be using fuel injection unless it was better.
When I was at the dyno a couple of weeks ago I witnessed a Supra put down 794whp and 670wtq with a 6 cylinder turbo...EFI.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 06-29-2005).]
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11:43 PM
Jun 30th, 2005
Iain Member
Posts: 133 From: Out of my Tree, Perth, Scotland Registered: Apr 2004
I have to say, the YAABS threads are keeping a lot of us amused.
"your tire loses cohesion with the road "
Just to be pedantic, tyres adhere to roads, cohesive forces exist in like materials, adhesive forces are between unlike materials.
"Gas mileage ..............................arent high on my priority list"
One reason why the US is the worlds largest producer of greenhouse gas, Kyoto anyone?
I'll run and hide now!
Iain
so, nothing to add, so you wanna drag this thread in another direction? greenhouse gasses, huh? China is catching up in that department VERY quickly. and who's gonna tell them what to do? how about environmental damage & slavery?
you best be running & hiding. do they have ABS in Scotland? thats where the Irish come from, isn't it?
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09:39 AM
Iain Member
Posts: 133 From: Out of my Tree, Perth, Scotland Registered: Apr 2004
Predictable, LOL!, so a point of information re: adhesion/cohesion is nothing to add?
This thread already took another direction when it descended into personal attacks, as above, or are the discussions on psychology, age, experience and carbs v fuel injection, really a secretly coded reference to ABS technology?
ABS works.
Many people don't like it. Many will never like it.
Carbs work.
Fuel injection is better. Again many "will never submit to it", mainly because the don't take the time to find out how it works, or how easy it is to modify.
People will ALWAYS tinker with whatever is available to them. Years ago it was 'Fact' that people wouldn't be able to tune FI cars. How many user modifiable fuel/ignition ECU's are there now? I can think of at least 15, not including the Megasquirt homebuilt project. Yet there are still people willing to junk perfectly good EFi systems to revert to ancient, dark age technology that is carbs.
If people want to experiment with anti skid systems let them. To even get the system into a vehicle requires a certain mechanical skill. Never mind actually getting it all connected. Stands to reason that the people who shouldn't be doing it in the first place wouldn't even know where to start. As far as testing it goes, there are always round things, there always WILL be ways round things. It's how technology works.
Iain
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06:54 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Doug Chase: Actually, the exact opposite is true. Airbags were explicitly designed for these people.
Until recently, airbags were designed to protect an average size male in a 30mph head-on collision with no seatbelt.
Negative, Ghost rider.
Does the acronym "SRS" mean anything to you? It means "supplemental restraint system". Supplemental meaning that it works to supplement the action of another restraint system... seatbelts.
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09:58 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Rocky64: However, brakes are often used for STOPPING. It's true when you lock up the brakes on a non-ABS car that you loose control in a sense. But again, brakes are for stopping. If someone pulls out in front of you, are you going to try and steer around them or just stop? How much time do have to react? Which way would you try to steer if you could which is supposed to be possbile with ABS since the front wheels keep turning instead of locking up? Sometimes all you need to do; have to do, is stop as fast as possible and ABS sometimes prolongs the stop. It really is that simple. I can't believe how long this thread is getting with people trying to defend ABS like it's their mother or something. People on this thread try to explain the anti-ABS stance away with techno-babble---but it's pointless because they don't have a leg to stand on. Now, who is going to quote me in their response... it never ends.
I'll quote. Dismissing "techno-babble" as meaningless... A) is the weakest argument ever B) is a darn good sign that said techno-babble is not understood by the dismisser.
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10:01 PM
PFF
System Bot
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
actually its a proven fact that neurologically the brain is always simplifying itself - conservation of energy in a way.. but any unused information can eventually be lost as the neurons are eliminated from being wasted energy. to really never lose knowledge you have to continue to use it and keep your brain active.. this is why mind games, crossword puzzles, outside thinking, even the arts are so important as they keep your mind from deteriorating over time - there are some very very sharp 90 year olds, and some brain dead 20 year olds - as well as some very sharp 20 year olds and some 90 year olds that only know what they've been imersed in for the last year or so.
they are generalizations all formed in the same way as other ethnic, sociological, cultural generalizations that are often very insulting.. sure they may be true sometimes but the rest of the time they do nothing productive only cause harm
Don't forget that the brain is the original neural network. Over time, areas that contain information on disparate subjects have time to form links that don't form immediately and are the result only of experience. We call this "wisdom". It encompasses among other things the finding of commonalities among different subjects and recognition of far flung patterns.
Not that age and time necessarily lead to such things, but substituting for them is difficult.
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10:04 PM
Oct 17th, 2005
m0sh_man Member
Posts: 8460 From: south charleston WV 25309 Registered: Feb 2002
so far the worst ABS system ive ever seen is the 89-91 PM3 abs system that GM used on the grand prix, cutlass supreme and buick regal, what a big piece of crap it is, i just removed the entire system from my 91GTP 3.4L DOHC 5 speed, and put in vaccum brakes from a 91 lumina, night and day difference, my car now has properly functioning brakes.
However ill agree with matt hawkins, my other vehicles and my parents vehicles, which consist of a 2002 dakota quad cab a 2002 toyota 4 runner, a 2001 montero sport, 2002 hyundai santa fe, 1999 mercury sable, and a 2002 f450 dump truck, all have properly working brakes, that include the ABS stuff.
matthew
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10:00 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
just given ya **** man. actually have a healthy dose of self confidence but I do get tired of the bs. 
