This isnt completely Fiero related, but figured this is where the people looking for info on installing them in a Fiero would best see it here. Ive seen a few threads lately on it. I personally dont like it at all, I like being in control....not allowing a computer to make its best guess.......but thats my opinion.

Today I ran into another reason to reconsider before you dive into it. My 88 vette has factory ABS. It has been electronicly disabled for a few years with no problem. A few weeks ago, I noticed a slight tendency to pull to the left when braking, not a very strong one though. After polishing it all up for a local Corvette show, we all drove about 50 miles away. At the show, I noticed the right front wheel was thick with brake dust, but not the left. Out of curiosity we aimed a pyrometer at the rotors and found the right to be well over 100* hotter. Seems that the right caliper is sticking. Well damage is done, so just go on home afterwards and install 2 new OEM calipers.....no change. OK, flush the lines completely and install new flex lines. Still no effect. OK im stuck, and stop by a few repair shops I know the owners of. No one can figure whats goin on but the right front is definately sticking in the somewhat closed position. Now my only option was to take it to the dealer where he has the proper test proceedure and equipment to analyze the ABS. The ABS module under the back floor is defective. It seems that with this system anyway, even if its totally disabled, still uses the hydraulic system in it to operate the calipers. They all agreed that having the system offline didnt have a thing to do with the failure. So now the result is new calipers and hoses that werent needed ($513.00) and a control module that will again be disabled after installed, costs $1900.00 + about $400.oo to install and test it.

So think things out before you may need a $3,000.00 brake job.

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I can understand why people want ABS. I don't want it. It has nothing to do with brake performance... It's a maintenance nightmare. Always has been and continues to be.

I don't know of any ABS system that doesn't have problems of one sort or another.

Problems with tone rings and pickups are extremely common.
Problems with the ABS pump system are also common.
Both classes of problem have generated a bunch of Recalls.

Simply bleading the brakes without following proper methods can screw up and even damage some ABS systems. It's not a system to screw around with.

Old Fluid... God Help you. Anyone that doesn't keep an ABS system flushed is begging for trouble from the effects of weak fluid. If you think weak Anti Freeze can cause a mess, weak brake fluid is worse in ABS systems.

Even if you are going to disable the ABS... make sure you keep up the fluid changes.

(My sig fits adding ABS to a car really well...)

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurasic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 06-21-2005).]

BAH!
and all this new fangled fuel injection! nothing but trouble!

can even work on these new cars!

and whats this "automatic" transmission stuff?! cant people work a clutch?!

power steering...power windows...pretty soon these dang cars will be driving themselves!

where's the idle screw?

now get off my lawn!

I work at Bosch doing chassis controls such as ABS, TCS and ESP, and it is unfortunate that the early ABS systems have jaded so many. Modern ABS systems (and by modern I mean within the last ~8 years) are extremely reliable. They have to be. I have listened to many blast ABS systems, but until you fully understand what they do for you, please don't be so quick to judge. A 1988 Corvette's ABS should not be the basis for your opinion. That is just naive. We work hard to make vehicles safer. We can do things a driver can't do, ever. So keep disabling your ABS, just remember that you could be putting yourself and others in harms way because of a grudge over a 20 year old brake system.

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86 GT, 5-Speed
87 GT, 3.4l DOHC Turbo
95 BMW M3
02 Nissan Altima 3.5SE

If I hadnt just painted the car a few months ago and put a few thousand in the engine, instead of doing this brake repair, I would have junked it out because as an original 80K nice car isnt worth that. Im sorry, but something is seriously wrong with having to junk a nearly mint car because of defective brakes . Maybe now their better, but the manufacturer should have to eat the cost of me testing out their crap.

quote Originally posted by Matt Hawkins: Modern ABS systems (and by modern I mean within the last ~8 years) are extremely reliable. They have to be. I have listened to many blast ABS systems, but until you fully understand what they do for you, please don't be so quick to judge. A 1988 Corvette's ABS should not be the basis for your opinion. That is just naive. We work hard to make vehicles safer. We can do things a driver can't do, ever. So keep disabling your ABS, just remember that you could be putting yourself and others in harms way because of a grudge over a 20 year old brake system.

I have ABS on a 95 S10 Blazer and I hate them. I know others who have had the same complaint. No matter what the "research" says, I know that there have been times that ABS have made it HARDER to stop and control the vehicle, particulary in the winter. I can be going hardly fast enough for the speedo to even register as I attempt to pull up next to my mail box on my way home from work, and if there is a combo of snow and slush, the ABS make that annoying "EEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNT" sound and I slide, "slow motion" five feet when I should have stopped--right up against my mail box. Like I said, no matter what anyone says---I don't care. I have friends who have had similar experiences. I hate ABS in the winter. Maybe they work better in the summer or in the rain, but in real life winter situations, I know they can actually make it harder to control and stop a vehicle.

I have two scalped front tires outside on my Formula because of brake lockup.... Like everything else Roger, the first few years shouldn't determine the worth of an object. Of course we could all say that Pontiac's attempt to build our beloved two seater was a failure and a pathetic excuse, if scoped in on the early 84 4's. My vehicle is the only one in my entire family (including extended family) that doesn't have ABS. I've also made a few emergancy brakes with ABS and without, and there is a largely noticable difference. It's your preference though, but let me ask you; if you don't like paying out cash and expensive equipment, then why the hell are you driving a vette? I personally would like ABS, but like most here am only a poor man at the moment and couldn't afford them. Thank you though for your warning about your late problem, mabye it will help some one about to make a difficult choice.

Thanks-
Paul Haskins

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Roger, if you don't like the ABS on your Vette, you should just plumb in new lines that don't go through the hydraulic unit. It would be far cheaper than putting in a part you won't use.

Rocky64, again the system technology in your Blazer is almost 15 years old. And believe me, they aren't the best. Just don't judge all systems by this experience.

I am sure if we started debating stability control, we would get all sorts of comments saying, "I'd rather be in control of the vehicle." I hope when this technology becomes more mainstream (it will in the next couple years) that people will accept it. I personally will never purchase another new vehicle without it.

Matt,

Yes, but you also have to admit that current ABS and Traction/Stability Control systems are nearly all presently or will be tied to the OBD2. Few if any of the OBD2 tied systems are likely to work at all let alone properly when transplanted to another vehicle.

Anyone doing conversion is more than likely going to use an old system from some junk car and every thing we are saying about them above will apply.

The problem with ABS as a whole is that when ABS works, in most cases it works rather well but when it messes up you may as well junk the car in many cases unless it is still covered under warranty. This problem is likely to get far worse in the near future.

Current ABS and other car systems are increasingly deployed so that you can't install used parts even when you can find good ones due to the VIN tie that more and more makes/models are built with. Only a dealer can override some of the VIN ties and in many cases even the dealer can't override the tie. The part has to be sent to car maker authorized service depot to have anything done to it.

Even tho current ABS systems may, and I do mean may, be better when they come off the assembly line... GM and others get plenty of warranty and other problems with them once they hit the road. The jury is anything but conclusive that more complicated Traction/Stability control systems will prove any more reliable long term in the real world. The simple fact is that the more complex a system is the more likely it will screw up. Especially subject to typical assembly line labor, car and part maker cost cutting, and real road corrosion.

Part source in these new systems is a huge issue. GM and Ford have both spun off their parts into independant companies, both of which use foriegn manufacturing facilities. Lets say Bosch designs the system for GM, the Bosch designed system WILL contain parts provided by Delphi (For those that don't know... The spinoff of former Delco Packard Harrison and other parts groups. Visteon is the Ford parts spinoff as I remember.) and likely made in Pacific Rim and Asian countries that may meet GM/Delphi specifications but often just barely. Neither GM nor Delphi will care as long as the parts don't generate a Recall or huge volumes of warranty claims.

It's easy for you to sit there and say we're basing everything on decades old tech... I assure you myself and others have much more recent background on these systems that makes us not like them for multiple reasons. Myself I don't care about the performance as much as the reliability and service issues. GM Ford and everyone else is dumping way too much crap into vehicles way too fast and none of them have the first clue of how they will really hold up.

Just one of thousands of examples... We just had a 1 day off the lot new car catch fire and burn all by itself sitting in the parking under my building. Electrical problems, including ones that easily cause fires, are all to common and a frequent subject of NHTSA recalls.

The ABS in the 97 Sable I used to drive made winter driving (or winter sliding) a lot more hazardous than the no ABS in the Fiero. The Fiero can stop in a much storter distance than the Sable ever could, and I don't think that's just because the Sable weighed more. Also my father's Navigator is in the shop now getting a $700 brake job because of the ABS acting up. Keep your ABS, traction control, air bags, and OBD2 electronics, I have no use for them.

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1984 Fiero SE

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: The ABS in the 97 Sable I used to drive made winter driving (or winter sliding) a lot more hazardous than the no ABS in the Fiero. The Fiero can stop in a much storter distance than the Sable ever could, and I don't think that's just because the Sable weighed more. Also my father's Navigator is in the shop now getting a $700 brake job because of the ABS acting up. Keep your ABS, traction control, air bags, and OBD2 electronics, I have no use for them.

I totally agree... Just like I was saying earlier about winter driving... and it's not just because it's "old" technology. I have had this same conversation with friends who have newer cars that say the same thing. Winter stopping and ABS = BS.

The problem that I have with ABS and some of the other 'non-essential' systems on cars today is that some day they will be old, outdated and worn out. What if the Fiero did come with ABS? What kind of condition would these systems be in right now? How many people on this forum would be wanting to know how to bypass the system so their brakes would work again? ABS might not be the demon some think it is, but at some point, it WILL have problems. Air bags used to have a sticker warning that the system needed to be recertified by a dealer 10 years after the production date. What would happen if something needed to be replaced because of its age? You would get a part that has been sitting in a warehouse for 10 years because the chances of a 'new' airbag module, sensor or bag still being produced for a 10 year old car would be slim to none. ABS would be the same way- would an ABS pump for your 93 Firebird still be available 'new' (not a 12 year old NOS part)? A junk yard part? Would it be better than what you already have? Worth risking your life for?

BAH!
and all this new fangled fuel injection! nothing but trouble!

can even work on these new cars!

and whats this "automatic" transmission stuff?! cant people work a clutch?!

power steering...power windows...pretty soon these dang cars will be driving themselves!

where's the idle screw?

now get off my lawn!

yup - I'll say it again.

ABS is GREAT. at least EVERY car I've driven with ABS, its worked awesome. ABS with a crappy brake setup is the crappy brakes fault, not the ABS's. Sable. S-10. lol. Detroits Finest. no Dodge Shadow? lol front heavy mini truck. they can barely stop no matter what you try. ABS on a mini truck is a pig in a dress. yes, equipment sucks when it gets old. how's about power windows. I've seen plenty cars that cant even roll the windows up & down anymore. yes, this is a problem. people cant even change there own oil, and you expect them to maintain their brake systems?! when buying or owning an old car you know this going in. I bet if you still had your original brakes on your Fiero, good chance they'd be pretty dang dangerous. Most of us have replaced at least one caliper, probably the master cyl too. and how many rotors? these thing dont last forever. yes, ABS is just more stuff to check & replace. and I'm still wondering how ABS reacts to when the brake pad is gone, and its metal on metal. but, I bet it'll still work great.

C4 Corvettes are a dime a dozen now. You can buy a pretty decent one for less than $8K, so $3K for brakes is a little ridiculous as I see it, I can get new engines for less than that. I looked into swapping out the system for a pre ABS Corvette (84-85) It would be new hard lines completely, different size calipers, master cylinder with proportioning valve. Doesnt sound like a lot, but thats a lot of crawling around and no one could verify that it would not affect something thru link to computer to be affected elsewhere on the car. Also no one was willing/able to 'modify' the system as such due to liability issues for them. I dont have the time or lift to mess with it myself.

Pyrthian, Compairing an ABS pump to a caliper or anything else in the brake system is apples and oranges. Compairing it to EFI and several other systems is even weaker.

You can rebuild the entire Fiero brake system for a few hundred dollars. And I mean the entire system. Same holds true on many other vehicles even when they have ABS with the EXCEPTION of the ABS pump! If an ABS pump is bad you are looking at hundreds to 1000 dollars or more for ONE part. And that is just the ABS pump. No Labor or other parts you may need to actually install the bloody thing.

Have you ever bought an ABS pump? Reconditioned ABS pumps, if you can get one, frequently cost as much or more than the NADA value of many older cars. If you have to find a new one... and good luck finding it... as many ABS pumps simply aren't available in the aftermarket or even thru dealers. The car makers don't keep many of these around. Rebuilders only rebuild ones that they think they can sell in enough volume to make it worth the effort. And as noted the only "new" ones have probably been sitting on a shelf for years.

Many pumps are only used on a few models and/or a few years of a model. Some of them are specific to just one or two models for only a couple years. Anyone that has seen the number of production changes to TH125C(3T40) hasn't seen anything compaired to the number of ABS pump versions out there. Many pumps may look the same but the guts and fittings are not. Small changes to a pump can make it completely incompatible with anything but the models and years it was made to fit.

I'm sorry but the only people who like ABS have never had to repair it. Many shops simply refuse to work on ABS cars because they cannot get parts plus they don't want the headache and liability.

On bypassing the ABS pump....

Safely removing ABS from a car is not a simple task. It creates major legal problems for any shop that does it or works on cars like that. (Read the stuff about FMVSS and enforcement on the links page of my cave.)

ABS cars often have more brake than the car needs. Could be allot more depending on the car. They are litterally over braked because the designers assume that the ABS pump will always be there to control things. On OBD2 cars it is nearly impossible. Loss of ABS will nearly always set DTC in the PCM and/or BCM. Depending on the vehicle's programming, those DTCs will cause other problems like cutting engine performance.

If you simply bypass the pump... You could have a car with really touchy brakes. These cars may also forgo a proportioning valve which could leave you pointing wrong way down the road if you hit the brakes too hard.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 06-23-2005).]

ABS and all those other driver aids are great! Especially for those who never lerned to control the vehicle! It seems they are the biggest pain when we expect our new cars to behave like an old car. I believe it is important to consider how the car will react to your input and drive it acordingly!

When the ABS kicks in on my wife's 2000 Mustang it seems to allways catch me off guard, even though I force test it often.(just to see it work) Now my 89 silverado has ABS in the rear and I'll be damned if I can tell if it even operates! These things tend to make me like my Fiero and 56 Fairlane. They are predicible. ALLWAYS in the garage for service!

quote Originally posted by theogre: Pyrthian, Compairing an ABS pump to a caliper or anything else in the brake system is apples and oranges. Compairing it to EFI and several other systems is even weaker.

I'm not comparing them - I'm saying EVERYTHING wears out.
and, when things are new & in limited quantity, they are expensive, and just about everything we now take for granted in a car was at one point an expensive option.
no, I have never replaced a ABS pump, or whatever - but I know when I do, I will be crying too. but, thats back to line 1 - EVERYTHING wears out.

My 2000 Expedition with 40000 miles just lost it's main ABS control unit. I've seen lots of others with all kinds of ABS problems on the Ford forums. Don't tell me just because it's less than 10 years old it will be trouble free.

BTW, the ABS will not be fixed in my Expedition. After driving one winter with it, and one winter without it, I MUCH prefer the stopping power sans ABS. Anyone know how to get to the back side of an Expedition cluster to pull the damn ABS light out?

I've read lots of stuff on ABS and the truth is on any deformable surface (sand, snow, dirt etc), where your tire can actually dig in; locking up the brakes is the quickest way to stop. On a snowy day chances are you'll be flirting with the brake traction threshold every time you apply the brakes, where as with dry or even wet pavement driving people rarely get near this threshold. Since the threshold is so low in snow ABS has to pump the brakes almost to the point of not braking at all. Combine that with the better braking you get by locking up the brakes in a non ABS car where your tires will sink in to the snow and find more traction, and it's easy to see why people who know how to drive find non ABS better in the snow.

The idea of ABS was it would allow unskilled drivers to brake and steer around the trouble. I'm sure we all remember the first ABS car commercials with the 30 something year old housewife slaloming around some obstacle, brakes like ablaze, but with no loss of control. Sure made for great TV and everyone thought they needed ABS. But then a strange thing happened. All these cars hit the road with ABS, but the accident statistics didn't back up the "ABS is your savior" promise. Simply providing steering ability in an emergency does not mean people can control that steering ability. Instead of crashing straight into something with all 4 wheels locked up people were jamming the brakes, swerving, and finding out that controlling a 3000 pound object going 60mph at the threshold point of braking and then yanking the wheel requires a lot more skill than the TV implied.

By the way, the ABS module in my car is a discontinued item (mmmmmm wonder why?), but the guy I know at the dealer was able to locate one in Michigan. The only other one he found was in Calif. If someone else needs one ,their going to be in deep poopoo.

And like said above, I know how to drive competitively, and I can outstop a similar car that has ABS with mine not working. The 2 times I did bump into someone (little or no damage) on snow was driving cars that had working ABS. Ive never done it in 40 years in a car without it.Watch the guys in the Mustangs (05s withABS) in the Grand Am Cup series. Their always having troubles with tires locking and overshooting turns. Luckily the cars are so fast their usually able to catch up quick.

I think if you look at ABS and reduced accident claims....

You quickly find they were a mostly lie right up front. I'm not just talking about the public PR.

Accidents frequently happen so fast that you don't get time to do any effective braking. You are lucky if you get your foot off the gas let alone to the brake pedal. Hell with actually pushing the brake pedal.

Most accidents are the result of gross incompetance. Tailgating. Running traffic controls (lights/signs/etc). Speeding, including going too fast for conditions even when you are not exceding posted limits.

Then there are Cell phones that have many drivers running as if they were drunk.

Now throw in stability control... Another techno attempt to make up for the general incompetance of drivers. I'm waiting for the lawsuites and recalls to start flowing on this one. Likely sooner rather than later. It won't take long before some design error or manufacturing defect makes these systems go nuts. Hopefully no one will get killed like the Ford tire problem a couple years ago. No piece of tech will turn a 2-3 Ton SUV into a Porshe or BMW sports car, which is just how many jackasses drive them. Start dropping in aftermarket odd sized tires and suspension parts at these vehicles and you are begging for a giant mess.

Several states, including DE, are looking at laws to change how teens get licenses... Part of this includes more parent supervised time and so on... Problem is most parents shouldn't have a license let alone be allowed to teach anyone else how to drive.

Red light cameras are another big scam. More than half the fine goes to the camera company in most cases. Drivers that flagrantly run lights quickly learn to recognize camera systems meaning that any spot accident reduction doesn't automatically translate to other intersections.

quote Originally posted by KA: Now my 89 silverado has ABS in the rear and I'll be damned if I can tell if it even operates!

That's not ABS. That's an adjustable proportioning valve operated by rear suspension position. IOW, it mechanically reduces the pressure to the rear brakes when you have an empty bed.

My experience with ABS and Non ABS I prefer Non ABS due to road feel. I am young but am rated with the best by the way of insurance goes. Ok Ok I'm 26. with a crystal clean driving report. I now own a 2002 Malibu that has ABS. I love them and I hate them. On Clear conditions they work great. But when traveling on the roads of Cleburne Texas there's gravel getting built up near intersections as well as some pot holes starting to form. These are a nightmare. I hate when ONE tire gets effected by small traces of gravel or the sudden dip of the pot hole forming and all hell breaks loose in the braking system. When I should be stopped I'm Traveling another 10 - 20ft. That's my complaint. They need to get this ABS to become wheel specific. Cause when you hit a tiny amount of gravel and that one tire slips the ABS kicks in and you lose braking pressure to the other wheels as well. City driving and clean roads ABS is good.

There that's my complaint.

[This message has been edited by stuartlowery (edited 06-25-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Rocky64: I have ABS on a 95 S10 Blazer and I hate them. I know others who have had the same complaint. No matter what the "research" says, I know that there have been times that ABS have made it HARDER to stop and control the vehicle, particulary in the winter. I can be going hardly fast enough for the speedo to even register as I attempt to pull up next to my mail box on my way home from work, and if there is a combo of snow and slush, the ABS make that annoying "EEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNT" sound and I slide, "slow motion" five feet when I should have stopped--right up against my mail box. Like I said, no matter what anyone says---I don't care. I have friends who have had similar experiences. I hate ABS in the winter. Maybe they work better in the summer or in the rain, but in real life winter situations, I know they can actually make it harder to control and stop a vehicle.

Actually if you pop it out of drive it'll stop a lot quicker. Older Blazers have notoriously poor brakes, even on mine with the abs disabled the rear will tend to want to 'keep on driving'.. and yes the brake system is in good condition. The fact is the rear brakes.. well.. suck.

quote Originally posted by Shadow_Wolf: Actually if you pop it out of drive it'll stop a lot quicker. Older Blazers have notoriously poor brakes, even on mine with the abs disabled the rear will tend to want to 'keep on driving'.. and yes the brake system is in good condition. The fact is the rear brakes.. well.. suck.

That's a symptom of a tight torque convertor and tall 1st gear. That's also why you pop it into neutral on snow...

Cars are being made to support the auto industry just like rubber bands which use to last a long time, now maybe two months, america is greedy and there is not enough profit in making things last. I believe it was Baucsh and Laumb that charged a different price for the exact same contact lens that they purposely packaged differently one as for short term use the other for long term and a major drug company that manufactured a drug used in humans and dogs, one of the major differences being a considerable mark up for that sold to humans. In America being a consumer automatically makes you a victim. I love my country, it's the people I have problem with.

Let's face it guys, this is a capitalist society, and business is not in the business of saving you money. In the words of a good friend mechanic regarding ABS when it debuted years ago " What good is it for me to have ABS brakes when the idiot coming up behind me doesn't", As for the vette owner that started this thread, regarding one of the several responses, paying a high price for your vehicle should in no way suggest you be willing to pay a high price to have it repaired. The labor rate for a brake job on a 79 pinto is the same for a 2005 automobile the time factor is the variable.

It's about principle, and we tend to not want to pay the asking price when we have a strong suspicion we are being taken advantage of as those who drive expensive vehicles often are. The attitude is: if you can afford this kind of car you can afford to pay a higher price for service, and still not far behind: If you are a woman and ignorant of what's going on, you should pay more also.

The only time I support the high repair cost for an expensive vehicle is when a customer takes their expensive vehicle to a shop other than the dealership to save money and then acts like an ass when the work is not done in a time satisfactory to their standards. I have had the pleasure of recommending they take their vehicle to the dealership where I knew that not only would they pay a considerable amount more but would also face the possibility of not getting the car back the same day.

Cars use to be about transportation, now they're like living rooms on wheels, requiring more frequent driver education will do a lot more than ABS will, prevent the accident as opposed to making it execute smoothly. ABS will not keep you from hitting anything if you are going too fast to stop in the required distance, it will save your tires and slow you down a little more before impact and if your reaction time is slow ie elderly people you won't get much of a chance to use it anyway. Personally I believe it is more of a sales pitch than anything else, unlike airbags which really do save lives. Every little thing you can say is a safety feature boosts marketing value, that's why SUVs are all over the place, don't worry about your poor driving habits and red light running, just get a bigger vehicle to cushion the blow.

A couple of weeks ago a woman in an SUV merged right over into my passenger mirror on the interstate as my passenger watched, he said she never looked before doing so. The nudge got her attention. She's driving a vehicle that makes things safer for her when the real problem is her poor driving skills. This happened in broad daylight.

quote Originally posted by Shadow_Wolf: Actually if you pop it out of drive it'll stop a lot quicker. Older Blazers have notoriously poor brakes, even on mine with the abs disabled the rear will tend to want to 'keep on driving'.. and yes the brake system is in good condition. The fact is the rear brakes.. well.. suck.

I've had several Blazers over the years (three - first was an '89) and my complaint with my '95 is the very common complaint that ABS sucks in the snow. Vehicles with ABS seem to take longer to stop in the snow--its a common complaint and there is no amount of "yah, buts" that can change the fact that experienced drivers complain about ABS in the winter. Several people in this thread have given similar accounts. I have been driving for 26 years. I have been in ONE accident and it was where I couldn't stop in time. It was a four car pile-up with four cars, all with ABS, in the winter. I have driven three cars with ABS and like 15 without. No accidents all those other years. It's ridiculous that when I'm driving slow enough that the speedo hardly even registers, I slide in the slush for like 10 feet when I would have stopped in a non-ABS vehicle. Again, I don't care what the pro-ABS people say. People who don't like ABS are relying on real world, first hand experiences that no amount of "yah buts" or techno-babble can explain away.

Anyway, Shadow Wolf, I went off on a tanget in relation to your point. You may be right about Blazer brakes, but I still think that ABS in general in the winter is a safety problem.

[This message has been edited by Rocky64 (edited 06-25-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: unlike airbags which really do save lives.

Airbags without seatbelts might help a good bit, but don't they have a pretty minimal impact on accident survivability for people who are wearing seatbelts?

I only have the accidents that I have read about for a reference where the deployed airbag in a head on collision tends to reduce the distance of head travel beyond the torso which is where the seatbelt can actually make matters worse due to the difference in deceleration rates. I haven't heard of any terrible accidents with minor injuries being attributed to ABS, and I believe I have seen more issues of avoiding slides than accidents regarding ABS.

For the record though, I'm not a fan of controled explosions occuring in my face either a concern particularly when I'm riding with someone who tends tailgate. Both safety measures have their ups and downs but I prefer my seat belt which I feel naked without in a car, and attention to what's going on around me. Another question I have to ask is whether or not safety is the driving force or insurance companies through lobbying trying to lower their payouts behind the measures. If safety was the primary issue we would probably have role cages as well as other useful devices and to keep the cost down they could eliminate some of the excess luxury, make it an option and the safety equipment a standard.

I'm not knocking technology just pointing out that we don't see enough of what is really behind the decision making. Profit is priority and hopefully one day we all will stand up and say enough is enough with the pimping of the public;

One example being the restrictions placed on bankruptcy causing more of the financial burden to be placed on the individual. I will not argue with anyones right to be repaid, however unless I missed it, there was nothing instituted to hold the creditors responsible for how they continue to prey on the general public pushing high credit limits to individuals that lack the maturity to be responsible or the income to cover their spending. In other words the government has effectively reduced their risk and now they are even more aggressive in response. Here in FL CASH COWS are preying on the poor.

But then what does that have to do with ABS brakes and safety equipment. Sooner or later I'll find the right site for my political views.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: unlike airbags which really do save lives.

Actually... Airbags have killed people on more than a few occassions what otherwise would have survived the small wreck that set them off.

That is why many airbag systems have been or are being redesigned. It is also why they have been screaming to keep children in the back seat for several years. Short or other people that sit close to the steering wheel are also in danger, especially from older systems. These problems are why NHTSA finally capitulated and allowed airbag switches and/or disabling of airbags.

Driver side Airbags are known for causing broken arms. This can be a result of how you hold the steering wheel or having you arm blown from the wheel into the door and other interior objects.

Certain Chrysler models have caused severe burns to the arms due to how the airbag/inflator vents hot gas.

Airbags w/o seatbelts are fairly useless to extremely dangerous. Airbags should be treated like having a small bomb in front of you. They are inflated by what amounts to a rocket engine in thousandths of a second and have enough force to slam an unbelted driver back into a seat with considerable force. They will often apply that force in ways that will cause injury and even death beyond whatever the wreck might cause. Airbag systems are specifically designed to work properly only with belted occupants.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 06-26-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: BAH! and all this new fangled fuel injection! nothing but trouble! can even work on these new cars! and whats this "automatic" transmission stuff?! cant people work a clutch?! power steering...power windows...pretty soon these dang cars will be driving themselves! where's the idle screw? now get off my lawn!

LOL!

No matter how many tests that have proven that fuel injection is better, ABS is better, active handling is better, etc; you are still going to run into people who THINK they can react quicker than a computer. Good luck with that.

I have owned 3 vehicles that had ABS on them. NEVER had any problems with them whatsoever, so long as the REGULAR MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE was performed, which consists of nothing more than regular brake fluid changes (about once every 2 years regardless of mileage). I would ask rogergarrison if he has done this on his vette but I have a funny feeling I already know the answer to that question.

If I had a nickel for every time something broke on somebody's car and they said it was junk I would be a trillionaire. Listen people, everything on your car REQUIRES some kind of regular maintenance schedule. Brakes and brake-related systems are no exception. Even if you don't have ABS you still need to flush your brake fluid on a regular basis. Do you know that cars with power sterring need the fluid flushed regularly? How many people do that? When was the last time you had it done? I love it when I see people complain about their power steering rack or gear box leaking and then come to find out they never had the fluid flushed regularly. Should we just throw that whole system in the trash calling it junk because we don't want to maintain it proplerly?

Again this appears to be another one of those BASH-ABS threads involving the same people what just don't like ABS, no matter what car it is on. Personally, I wouldn't disable any safety-related device factory-equipped on any car, but thats just me. GM spent millions of dollars researching and testing ABS systems on roger's vette. They would not have spent that kind of money unless there was proof that it can help you avoid an accident. ABS has saved my cars from damage many times over the years, so you could say I am a believer.

As for the whole ABS on a Fiero debate, I still believe it can work. Until someone provides me with PROOF that ABS is a bad addition to a Fiero I won't be convinced otherwise, and neither should anyone else here. Afterall, if we all would have listened to the critics and naysayers, everyone would still be driving Fieros with 2.5's and 2.8's in them instead of the wide variety of engine swaps we see today.

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quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: The reason why airbags had to be redesigned is because some people don't wear seatbelts and others like to sit 1" away from the steering wheel or dashboard.

There will always be people that don't wear belts... Airbags were not designed to accomdate these people. Most new designs still aren't. I already said this.

Short and/or large people often have no choice but to sit close to the steering wheel. The one size fits all airbag simply doesn't fit all drivers.
Not all of the deaths to passengers involve child car seats or even children.
Passenger side disable switches are also included to prevent equipment sitting on the passenger seat from being blown into the rear of SUV's and light trucks. Placing various equipment there is not optional when many of these vehicles are used as work trucks.

The burns from the affected Chrysler airbags are severe to the point of permanent injuries disabilities and disfigurement. It is the equivalent of having your arms and hands shoved in a furnace.

"Traditionally" Airbags on many US built cars are set go off under very minor front impacts. This has resulted in major inguries and deaths that would not have happened in the same vehicle without the airbags. Many imports have the airbags set for higher front impact speeds and have far less incidence of such problems as a result.

Can you put ABS on an older car? Yes, it's been done.

Does it in fact make the car safer? I doubt there is even one person on the forum that has the facilities to test it properly. People making claims that slapping the ABS kit on a given vehicle will automatically make said car safer rarely have any basis in fact. The real fact is that they could have a car that is far less safe and don't even know it.

This isn't simply a matter of whether or not you can brake the car better than an ABS system can. In vehicle lines where ABS is/was an option, the entire brake system of an ABS equiped car frequently has major differences from the same car without ABS. Few people have the background to know what other changes might be required besides installing the ABS pump and controls.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: LOL! 1....I have owned 3 vehicles that had ABS on them. NEVER had any problems with them whatsoever, so long as the REGULAR MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE was performed, which consists of nothing more than regular brake fluid changes (about once every 2 years regardless of mileage). I would ask rogergarrison if he has done this on his vette but I have a funny feeling I already know the answer to that question. 2....Again this appears to be another one of those BASH-ABS threads involving the same people what just don't like ABS, no matter what car it is on. Personally, I wouldn't disable any safety-related device factory-equipped on any car, but thats just me. GM spent millions of dollars researching and testing ABS systems on roger's vette.

1....and you would be wrong, since I typicaly keep cars for around 8 years, first thing I do on buying is flush out the engine, put in new oil, flush out brakes, check pads and bleed them, flush clutch if it has one, put in new plugs, lube all fittings. BTW, in the owner maintainence manual, there is no mention of regular flushing of brake system. So I doubt if many normal people ever do it.

2....I dont care how many millions they spent, obviously wasnt enough. They would have done much better to give those millions to instructors to teach people HOW to drive. Id guess at least 1 out of 5 people on the road today should never have gotten a license....everyone of us has seen them. Just by my personal contact, Ive never had anyone tell me that ANY ABS brake system saved their butt...but I can fill a book with people who have a real problem with them. If you want them, Im glad for you, enjoy to your hearts content. It should be an option ...not forced down your throat. I dont want them and Id never check the box on the car order. Im not forcing anyone NOT to have them....only suggested that it can be VERY expensive to fix it.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-26-2005).]

quote Originally posted by theogre: Can you put ABS on an older car? Yes, it's been done. Does it in fact make the car safer? I doubt there is even one person on the forum that has the facilities to test it properly. People making claims that slapping the ABS kit on a given vehicle will automatically make said car safer rarely have any basis in fact. The real fact is that they could have a car that is far less safe and don't even know it.

You said it yourself. I doubt you or any anyone who shares your same opinion here on PFF has the facilities to determine that ABS would make a Fiero more dangerous. We all know the stock Fiero braking system is barely adequate as-is. People upgrading the braking system with bigger rotors and calipers are doing the same thing you are telling people who want to do ABS not to do. They are altering the braking characteristics of the car.

Lets be clear on one thing right now. I don't have a problem with you or roger's opinion concerning ABS...you guys can think what you want. I do, however, have a problem with the fact that every time somebody gets an idea, there always seems to be people who want to crush their spirits. Who knows, I could be wrong and maybe no ABS system will work properly on a Fiero. However, since I cannot prove or disprove that statement, who am I to trample on another person's dreams. Its your car and you do what you want with it; is my motto. If you or roger don't have definitive proof that ABS is a bad idea for a Fiero, I ask that you, and others like you, to please quit spreading propaganda like it is proven fact.

And just for the record I WILL eventually put 4-wheel ABS on one of my Fieros. I haven't decided which GM system I plan on using just yet but I will start a build thread concerning this and will even perform some real-world tests (both with the system enabled and disabled) to see the results and will even try different drivers.

None of us I know of just try to 'crush spirits' on different ideas. I just try to save them a lot of hastle and money based on my own experiences. While there may be some excellent engineers and fabricators here, the majority are just shade tree mechanics. The average guy here in his low to mid 20s dont have the capability to do everything they want to do. I even have things I wont attempt. Most people are not going to spend 3 or 4 times the cost of their car to do brakes when they can barely figure out how to set timing or wonder if they can fix a leaking EGR tube with duct tape. I myself wont even look inside a transmission because I have no idea what im doing with it.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: The average guy here in his low to mid 20s dont have the capability to do everything they want to do.

since age has anything to do with ability and quite often very little even with real world experience