The reason I ask is bcz I got my new Darrell Morse strut bar and am ready to install it. His instructions tell me how to preload the bar... So when I go to follow them, it feels like I am actually PULLING the towers together. This is the opposite of everything I have been taught or read. My logic tells me that I want to PUSH outwards on the towers.
So now I am overthinking the problem. Maybe bcz it is since that Fiero is a mid-engine layout... I want to pull in the towers instead of push out... Maybe Darrell knows something I don't... Maybe I am misunderstanding his instructions... Maybe, maybe, maybe.
So since we're all experts... lemme read some replies. Push 'em out -or- Pull 'em in?
PS: I know there are going to be the ubiquitous replies of "don't need 'em," or "they do nothing," or 'the area is strong enough anyway" and that is all well and fine. I think it looks exceptional and helps add yet another custom touch, though I have a friend that AutoX's frequently and has lowered his times after the strut bar. Regardless, if it does nothing but inspire more driver confidence or look pretty... I want to know the proper application of a trut tower brace on a mid-engined vehicle.
Since I am installing it anyway, I want to do it right.
------------------ REMEMBER: stoplights synch'd for 35mph are also synch'd for 70mph. (and for 140mph, now that I think about it.)
The idea is to "Pre-Load" the suspension by pulling them slightly together 1st. This removes (most of) the initial movement of the struts... it should help further solidify the suspension.
It doesn't matter. You're not using enough force to actually move the strut towers, just applying some preload on them to take out the slack. Since the STB is a 2 force member, it doesn't matter if it's in 10lbs of tension or 10lbs of compression, the end result is the same.
Yeah, the rear strut towers are so stiff already that I doubt you could even move them with the brace.
The strut tower brace doesn't necessarily hold the tower itself in place, but rather the strut tops (which have a notable amount of play in them when not tied to each other). I believe pre-loading them either way would reduce their additional movement within their bolt-holes.
BTW: For those who question the actual effectiveness of the part - Darrell Morse offers a performance guarantee... if you don't feel it made a difference, and you no longer want the part - you can return it for a refund. I don't believe anyone has ever sent one back
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10:04 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
The strut tower brace doesn't necessarily hold the tower itself in place, but rather the strut tops (which have a notable amount of play in them when not tied to each other). I believe pre-loading them either way would reduce their additional movement within their bolt-holes.
BTW: For those who question the actual effectiveness of the part - Darrell Morse offers a performance guarantee... if you don't feel it made a difference, and you no longer want the part - you can return it for a refund. I don't believe anyone has ever sent one back
Who is Darrell Morse and where can I get one of these?
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06:07 PM
PFF
System Bot
GARY TUCKER Member
Posts: 694 From: OOLTEWAH, TENNESSEE Registered: Oct 2003
You decide which you'd rather have on your car. Personally, I have Darrell's and I love it. I like the fact that it is a well made piece that doesn't interefere with engine access. It's hard to tell from this pic, but Darrell's design uses spherical bearings at the ends of the strut as well as threaded rod ends that allow you to adjust preload. It's a very high quality piece with a beautiful powdercoated finish - not painted. The fact that it's $89 cheaper doesn't hurt.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-12-2004).]
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07:18 PM
GARY TUCKER Member
Posts: 694 From: OOLTEWAH, TENNESSEE Registered: Oct 2003
Besides the rear offset brace from WCF there is a top offset for the 88's...the one I have
Any installed pics? Does it interfere with access to the oil fill or spark plugs at all? I see WCF says it won't work on a 4 cylinder. I believe Darrell's works on all Fieros and doesn't interfere with any access.
The WCF piece looks quite beefy, though.
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12:00 AM
webbee Member
Posts: 1149 From: Los Angeles, Ca. USA Registered: Jun 2000
How much does it improve handeling? That is the question that I wish you folks, that have it installed, would answer. Nice pics Formula88, they really clarify the final install, thanks.
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12:42 AM
2000RagTop Member
Posts: 3999 From: Sussex, (Milwaukee) Wi. USA, Earth Registered: Jun 2003
Can someone explain the purpose of the spherical bearings at the ends of the strut? The brace "floats" and "moves " I would have thought that it would be stiff?
The one I have is a different off set than the one shown here......but the picture here does not do justice to the thick crossbar ......this thing is massive.....I have not had time to install it yet........the bolts that come up thru the strut from underneath have to be taken out an longer ones put in their place because the mounting plates are so thick you can not get the bolts back on to hold the mounting plates in place......although it is not as unrestrictive as Darrell's, it still is not in the way of any access you may need to wires and oil fill etc. Hope this helps...
------------------ 1988 Gary Tucker (GT)
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09:29 AM
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
Can someone explain the purpose of the spherical bearings at the ends of the strut? The brace "floats" and "moves " I would have thought that it would be stiff?
That doesn't sound right... Formula88 and Minn... does your bar float?
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12:05 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Can someone explain the purpose of the spherical bearings at the ends of the strut? The brace "floats" and "moves " I would have thought that it would be stiff?
Thanks, -Michael
Yes, the bar "float" and "moves." What the spherical bearings do is prevent any torque from being transmitted across the bar because it can pivot at the end. The only forces that are transmitted are tension and compression. The purpose of the bar is to tie the tops of the strut towers together. You're not trying to use the STB as a sway bar. It should never have any bending force applied to it. It is designed to keep the distance between the tops of the strut towers fixed.
I hope this helps. You need a basic understanding of engineering struts, or 2 force members. That's about the best explanation I can give without trying to go into a college level engineering statics class.
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03:08 PM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
How much does it improve handeling? That is the question that I wish you folks, that have it installed, would answer. Nice pics Formula88, they really clarify the final install, thanks.
I don't think it does much to actually improve the handling limit, but it does make the car more responsive and gives the rear end a tighter feel. I doubt the limits have changed much (a sway bar would have more effect on that), but the transient response has improved.
I don't think it does much to actually improve the handling limit, but it does make the car more responsive and gives the rear end a tighter feel. I doubt the limits have changed much (a sway bar would have more effect on that), but the transient response has improved.
I assume that a front and rear bar has already been installed. This stiffens the flex that may occur between the towers. Does this have any effect on the bumpsteer problem?
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05:11 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
My Formula has front and rear sway bars stock. I'd recommend adding a rear bar to any car that doesn't have one before adding a STB. There is no front STB on a Fiero because it doesn't use struts up front.
This has no effect whatsoever on bump steer. Bump steer is caused by suspension geometry and is not affected by stiffening the strut towers.
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05:29 PM
May 15th, 2004
GARY TUCKER Member
Posts: 694 From: OOLTEWAH, TENNESSEE Registered: Oct 2003
A strut combines multiple functions of the suspension into one part, which is why manufacturers like it so much, less assembly labor. A strut typically consists of the damper, spring, wheel bearing assembly, and knuckle as a unit. A shock only controls damping, whereas a strut controls just about everything else besides damping.
BTW, if it's in the front it's called a McPherson strut and if it's in the rear it's called a Chapman strut, so named after their inventers.
JazzMan
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12:27 PM
Spyhunter Member
Posts: 1254 From: San Francisco, CA Registered: Feb 2002
There is lots of debate whether a strut tower brace actually DOES anything... I wonder if anyone has tried putting together a "measuring" system whereby something i solidly braced to one side, and runs past the other side, but is free to move (but maybe kept in the general area with something) and then figuring out some method for determining if it moved at all in relation to the non-attached strut tower after doing a round of autox...
Maybe i'll try to rig something before the next event here
Except for the Fiero which has McPherson strut at the back
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan: BTW, if it's in the front it's called a McPherson strut and if it's in the rear it's called a Chapman strut, so named after their inventers.
Our cars are very rigid in the rear strut area. because the towers are tied together with the upper rear cross bar that is welded to them on the rear firewall. The bar is useless added weight. Spend your money on something that will benefit your car. I have been doing unibody repair for 15 yrs I can assure you your strut towers dont flex. It takes alot of force on the frame machince to move a rear tower on one of these cars, alot more load than you can put on your strut towers on a corner thats for sure. the reason they sell these for other cars is because their isnt enough support on most cars because the strut towers arent tied together at the top. Thier is a rubber bushing in the top of the strut plate that allows the struts to move. you could build a new plate with a poly bushing and make some improvement. Well if your into big tachs on the dash and race seats in a basically stock 2.8 then the bar is a must.
[This message has been edited by performancesolutions (edited 05-15-2004).]
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12:46 PM
TaurusThug Member
Posts: 4271 From: Simpsonville, SC Registered: Aug 2003
Our cars are very rigid in the rear strut area. because the towers are tied together with the upper rear cross bar that is welded to them on the rear firewall. The bar is useless added weight. Spend your money on something that will benefit your car. I have been doing unibody repair for 15 yrs I can assure you your strut towers dont flex. It takes alot of force on the frame machince to move a rear tower on one of these cars, alot more load than you can put on your strut towers on a corner thats for sure. the reason they sell these for other cars is because their isnt enough support on most cars because the strut towers arent tied together at the top. Well if your into big tachs on the dash and race seats in a basically stock 2.8 then the bar is a must.
Thank you for your delightful opinion. Let me refer you to my post. "PS: I know there are going to be the ubiquitous replies of "don't need 'em," or "they do nothing," or 'the area is strong enough anyway" and that is all well and fine. I think it looks exceptional and helps add yet another custom touch, though I have a friend that AutoX's frequently and has lowered his times after the strut bar. Regardless, if it does nothing but inspire more driver confidence or look pretty... I want to know the proper application of a trut tower brace on a mid-engined vehicle."
[This message has been edited by blakeinspace (edited 05-15-2004).]
Sorry guys but the brace that goes along the firewall is eye candy only.
Here is a sketch showing why it doesn't do anything but look pretty.
DieselFiero
Personally I can't think of any situations where axial rotation of the strut could be incurred, and the mounting w/ the three top bolts would prevent such rotation before it even reached the STB. The brace serves to keep the top mounts a given distance apart, maintaining the geometry in relation to the the hard mounted pivots distributed throughout the suspension below. I'm assuming the above drawing is a plan view.
[This message has been edited by gt88norm (edited 05-16-2004).]
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12:48 AM
GARY TUCKER Member
Posts: 694 From: OOLTEWAH, TENNESSEE Registered: Oct 2003
You decide which you'd rather have on your car. Personally, I have Darrell's and I love it. I like the fact that it is a well made piece that doesn't interefere with engine access. It's hard to tell from this pic, but Darrell's design uses spherical bearings at the ends of the strut as well as threaded rod ends that allow you to adjust preload. It's a very high quality piece with a beautiful powdercoated finish - not painted. The fact that it's $89 cheaper doesn't hurt.
Look closely at the West Coast Fieros tower brace...It has no moving parts.....just thick solid metal, including the thick plates that go over the top of struts......The plates that mount on top of tower are so thick that you have to change out bolts from underneath just so the bolts will go on, beacuse the regular bolts are way too short to handle the thickness of metal....there is absolutely no movement in their brace....that is why I got theirs!
Let me refer you to my post.
