Just slap a sticker that says "lookin' pretty" on the bar !
It's just a 2.8 !! plus Blake is a BIG guy and may need extra help with the cornering(car leans to the driver's side when Jen ain't in there !! heh heh
Keep spending your $$ and you will never get a 3800sc like Revin's
Stop and think about this. The concern here is that the top of the struts can move left and/or right during cornering etc. The movement isn't much, guess say 1/2 inch(way more than I would really guess). With the cross bar behind the top of the strut, like the Morse design, what makes it any different than normal? the back of the strut tower are held a fixed distance apart by the back firewall, The right tower is braced by the dogbone mount. IF the struts move they flex by pivoting as in my sketch. And 1/2 inch movement would be a small angle. The Morse design does nothing to improve on the original design. If the struts flexed in/out 1/2 inch they are twisting along their axis( as in sketch). The Morse design does nothing to change this. The other design is a solid brace directly between to the struts, so it can keep the struts from flexing by transferring the force directly over to the other strut. The Morse design with the ball joints allows the struts to move left/right as much as before. If the cross bar was directly between the center of the struts, I'd say it would be functional.
Just take the Morse brace and assemble the 3 parts together on the floor, grab the two strut brackets and try to move them left/right, there will be no resistance, so when you put them on the car there won't be any either. Now if you turned it around and put the crossbar IN FRONT of the struts, you might get me to agree that it actually holds the struts apart so they won''t flex inward(with the preload pushing out).
Just my thoughts on the subject.
DieselFiero
quote
Originally posted by gt88norm:
Personally I can't think of any situations where axial rotation of the strut could be incurred, and the mounting w/ the three top bolts would prevent such rotation before it even reached the STB. The brace serves to keep the top mounts a given distance apart, maintaining the geometry in relation to the the hard mounted pivots distributed throughout the suspension below. I'm assuming the above drawing is a plan view.
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05:04 PM
GARY TUCKER Member
Posts: 694 From: OOLTEWAH, TENNESSEE Registered: Oct 2003
Het REVIN......It looks pretty by itself.....it doesn't need anything extra to do that.......BTY ....How many winding mountain roads do you have there in TEXAS to drive fast on??????
------------------ 1988 Gary Tucker (GT)
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07:36 PM
GARY TUCKER Member
Posts: 694 From: OOLTEWAH, TENNESSEE Registered: Oct 2003
Originally posted by GARY TUCKER: Het REVIN......It looks pretty by itself.....it doesn't need anything extra to do that.......BTY ....How many winding mountain roads do you have there in TEXAS to drive fast on??????
WAYYYY TOO MANY TO COUNT !!!! big hills but no mountains, Lots of farm roads that let ya see way ahead( for cops) Come down and visit !!!!
From the pictures shown thus far, you can not tell how thick the mounting palates on the towers are.......on the West Coast Fieros brace .....they are about one-half inch thick, and therefore too much for the stock bolts that mount the struts to handle.....too short for the nuts to be put on and the bolts have to be punchtd out from the underside and replaced with longer ones
------------------ 1988 Gary Tucker (GT)
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09:31 AM
GTDude Member
Posts: 9056 From: Keysville, Virginia, USA Registered: Nov 2001
pushing or pulling is not the point. What you want to do is stiffen the suspension and keep it from flexing in hard turns. It should not matter as long as they are tied together and under pressure. Good luck.
Phil
------------------ 86 GT TTops, 3.4 Auto.....bought from Doug of Fiero Warehouse
GM auto tech for 27 years. Specializing in electrical and computer problems. I will never be able to return as an auto tech again. I get EXTREME satisfaction helping others and will go to Extreme levels to help you if you need help. I have LOTS of free time on my hands. This forum and the help I give, allow me to have a purposeful life. Bring on the problems......LOL.
Originally posted by morse86@aol.com: Oh man! Here we go again! It seems like about every six months or so I have to defend this part. For those of you who have never read or heard about this, Here is the deal: I know that there is many differnt oppinions on whether or not this thing works. About four years ago I got a request from one of our club members to build him a strut tower brace. Not wanting to build him some thing that he didnt need, I proceded to design a brace that actually did strenghen up the top area of the strut towers and tie the two struts together. I uesd a computer program named COSMOS. This was an early version of a finite element analisis program. Once I had the rear sheet metal area drawn up I could actually apply side loads to simulate cornering, different road conditions like potholes and uneven pavement. I discoverd that even with the flimsy sheet metal brace that is place along the trunk wall that there was still a fair amount of flex. Maybe not enough to affect a daily driver, But we were building a performence suspension so a minimum of chassis flex was the ultimate goal. I then tried several different approches to provide the most strengh and still fit within the confines of the engine compartment and not interfere with normal maintenence (Read Compromise). The tops of the struts provide the most leverage for the size (diameter) of the strut bar. Think about what you would use to turn a stuburn bolt, A short wrench, or a long one. The same design pricipal works here. BTW, Did you ever notice that on almost all V6 powered 86-87 Fiero's, Pontiac installed a 3/16" thick plate between the sheet metal and the top strut mount? This kind of contradicts some folks therory that the Fiero doesn't need any extra suspension stiffeners. Through the years I have been improving the end brackets and paint finishes because besides selling a part that works, I insist that has to look cool too! I also have lowered the price twice since I started making them due to buying materials in larger quantities and shopping around for a good powdercoating vendor. When is the last time that WCF or the Fiero store done this? To show that I totaly support the need for the strut tower brace kit, I have allways made this offer. If any one buys a strut tower brace from me and does not feel that it has helped there Fiero handle better, then all you have to do is send it back and I will give you a full refund. I dont want to sound arrogant, but so far I have not had one return out of 250+ strut tower brace kits. Sorry for using up so much space. Thanks to all who support our hobby, ------------------ Darrell Morse Custom Fiero components
Remeber at the start of this thread I mentioned that it seemed like Darrell's instructions were Pulling the towers together? He is 100% correct. For this part, you NEED to preload the bar pulling the towers in. Believe me. I tried for an hour trying to get the bar to tighten up by loading out, I could never get it to mount up to my satisfaction. There was so much outward load that the bar was starting to interefere with the rubber trunk seal and pushing against the top portion of the trunk sheet metal with some decent force. Furthermore, the eye bolts were threaded WAY out, and the bar still had some vertical slop... not enough to rattle mind you, but it neither looked or felt right.
Change direction. I ran those eyebolts in and pulled the strut tops together. Viola! The bar tightened up... no intereference, and you tap the bar with our palm and you'd swear I'd just plucked a bass guitar. It took a lot of trial and error fitment adjustments... but I am happy.
Took the car out for a spin. Let me just say that Darrell will not need to refund this customer his money.
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02:11 AM
PFF
System Bot
GARY TUCKER Member
Posts: 694 From: OOLTEWAH, TENNESSEE Registered: Oct 2003
Remeber at the start of this thread I mentioned that it seemed like Darrell's instructions were Pulling the towers together? He is 100% correct. For this part, you NEED to preload the bar pulling the towers in. Believe me. I tried for an hour trying to get the bar to tighten up by loading out, I could never get it to mount up to my satisfaction. There was so much outward load that the bar was starting to interefere with the rubber trunk seal and pushing against the top portion of the trunk sheet metal with some decent force. Furthermore, the eye bolts were threaded WAY out, and the bar still had some vertical slop... not enough to rattle mind you, but it neither looked or felt right.
Change direction. I ran those eyebolts in and pulled the strut tops together. Viola! The bar tightened up... no intereference, and you tap the bar with our palm and you'd swear I'd just plucked a bass guitar. It took a lot of trial and error fitment adjustments... but I am happy.
Took the car out for a spin. Let me just say that Darrell will not need to refund this customer his money.
OH!!! Haven't you heard from all of the "NAY SAYERS" IT IS JUST FOR LOOKS.......!!!!!
------------------ 1988 Gary Tucker (GT)
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10:52 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Our cars are very rigid in the rear strut area. because the towers are tied together with the upper rear cross bar that is welded to them on the rear firewall. The bar is useless added weight. Spend your money on something that will benefit your car. I have been doing unibody repair for 15 yrs I can assure you your strut towers dont flex. It takes alot of force on the frame machince to move a rear tower on one of these cars, alot more load than you can put on your strut towers on a corner thats for sure. the reason they sell these for other cars is because their isnt enough support on most cars because the strut towers arent tied together at the top. Thier is a rubber bushing in the top of the strut plate that allows the struts to move. you could build a new plate with a poly bushing and make some improvement. Well if your into big tachs on the dash and race seats in a basically stock 2.8 then the bar is a must.
Im with him. If your car is so structurally unsound that the firewall and the rear storage compartment walls dont stop any flexing, you have way bigger problems...... The whole rear unibody is a completely welded together box.
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03:05 PM
88GTNeverfinished Member
Posts: 1809 From: Pleasanton, CA Registered: Feb 2003
Fact is these cars are minimum 16 years old. Even the stiffest unibody frame setup can start to show some degradation of the steel and allow some flex. What's the problem here? It looks good, and any even if minimal stiffening of the frame can't hurt. We're taliking about a $100 part here. Even if it only looks good it ain't a bad investment.
I guess everyone is putting in their 2 cents so I better hurry with mine! I am NOT a fan or really a believer in STB's, BUT....... I was discussing this with my friendly local mechanic and he told me about his time on the pit crew for a racing NSX team. This was a very well built, good handling, expensive and fast car. Even in stock form. The team had good financial backing (unofficial factory car) and went for a number of years on the road race circuit (so it was pretty serious).
At some point they tried a strut tower brace and it apparently did SOMEthing. The lap times improved and the driver insisted on leaving it. EXactly what it did might be up for conjecture (no doubt) but the difference could be seen on a stopwatch. So, even tho I can't imagine (like RogerG said) that formed sheet metal moving either (seems ludicrous!), I don't have an explanation for what happened with that car........ and I guess I have to concede that it did SOMEthing to help. Somehow. And when I get to that point with my project I will check it out by doing the stuff below:
So I had a thought - a test of sorts - to see if there is in fact strut tower movement. Lots of suspension design books show how to measure shock absorber movement on a car to see what range it is working in and if it is bottoming or topping etc etc etc. Simply, you put a straight rod on the suspension components (and mount it so that it won't fall out while you are driving! !) A piece of smooth wood dowelling will work nicely. The idea is that it will PIVOT and one end is fixed on, ie, the lower control arm and the other end is relatively free but 'guided' so that it will stay perpendicular to the lower control arm. Indicators of some sort are put on the rod to show the maximum upper and lower limits of suspension travel. Nylon tie wraps (not extremely tight) work well as long as the rod is very smooth. Finally, some sort of a 'collar' or something will 'ride the rod' in between the tie wraps to 'bump' them up and down to the limits of travel. Obviously this collar has to be connected to the frame so that it indicates the OTHER end of the shock absorber mounting point. I don't know if I have made this sufficiently muddy or not but it is readily seen in all sorts of suspension and chassis/racing books as I said. So....... my thought was to do something like that with the strut towers. Put ie, TWO rods between them. Fasten one to each tower and then attach them with two 'sliding links' that will hold the two together but allow them to slide as well, so that IF and when there is some movement, the link (or something similar) would slide on the rods and show that the rods DID indeed move with respect to each other. It needs to be worked out, of course, but the idea is there. Mark the centre, or common point between them, then put the car thru its paces and look again. That should help tell what is going on. Don'tcha think? and finally, post your findings!!! if my car was on the road I would have done it by now, but it isn't so the ball is in someone else's court for the moment.
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09:34 AM
GARY TUCKER Member
Posts: 694 From: OOLTEWAH, TENNESSEE Registered: Oct 2003
No...You do not have to remove for oil change....The angle of that picture makes it look like there is much less room than there is....If you look at that picture closely, you will see that the rear compartment has been taken our or modified. Also the bar I have from WEST COAST FIEROS has a different offset than that shown.
------------------ 1988 Gary Tucker (GT)
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11:50 AM
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
fiero308... Jazzman and I were going to do some sort of measuring experiment on his stock Formula vs. my Formula. It involved some sort of marking device and some clay... He is a mad scientist when it comes to such things.
It would be interesting to see the results.
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12:50 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
I just put a strut tower brace from Darrell Morse in. From his instructions the preload would tend to push the towers out. You install the brace with the braces shimmed up at first(on the louver mount side stud), you then remove the shims and tighten the braces down. This would tend to try and push the sturt towers out.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 05-23-2004).]
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04:12 PM
GARY TUCKER Member
Posts: 694 From: OOLTEWAH, TENNESSEE Registered: Oct 2003
Wosh I could be sure on the install for my V8 project....extra weight (366lbs) and torque... I will be doing the install of the custom fab bars next week.
big hills but no mountains, Lots of farm roads that let ya see way ahead( for cops) 
Come down and visit !!!!
