Instead of going to the expense of larger diameter rotors and rims are there any high performance pads available made of materials providing more bite (see comment below). Also, has anyone ever tried an adjustable proportioning valve to fine tune the front to rear bias for optimum stopping distance?

In a recent article in "Grassroots Motorsports" a 2000 Civic Si was retrofited with Wilwood 12.19" (originals were 10.3") rotors, calipers, new wheels, tires at what I would guess a cost of over $2000. The average 60 to zero stopping distances only improved from about 155 feet to 140 feet. Better but still not great for the expense involved. They lost more of my interest when they sumarized the test by saying that some of this improvement "could be solely attributed to the increased initial bite of the Q compound pads over the stock pads".

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kjstauffer
86 Fiero SE - 2.8 V6 - 4 speed Muncie

When I first picked up my little Fiero,comeing off the freeway was down right scarey,I wasn't used to the stopping power of the stock Fiero brakes,so I decided to install new brake pads,I was surprised to see that my little Fiero had fairly new pads installed.I then made up my mind to do the Grand am brake upgrade,I haven't had a chance to drive it yet because I still need to register the car,but in the driveway they seem to grip much better (but you lose the emergency brake) Try the link below, for the proportioning valve mod
I considered this mod ,but I had too much trouble locating the specified spring and bleeding the brakes, the thought of changeing the Proportioning valve spring,if I didn't like the performance, didn't sound too hot, so I opted for the Grand am brake upgrade.....
http://www.webelectricproducts.com/99/4/brakes.htm

[This message has been edited by James Bond 007 (edited 03-26-2004).]

When I first drove a Fiero, I thought the brakes were really good and had stopping power, but I ended up selling the car. Then I got a 2003 Honda and drove that to work and school for awhile. When I finally bought another Fiero, it felt the same as the first one, but I didn't know the braking was aweful until I had driven the Honda. Like James said, coming off a freeway was scary. Heck, I even had a dream afterwards driving my Fiero and the breaks were mushy and I crashed. But then again I'm sure my new Fiero requires the pads to be changed which I'll be doing shortly.

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AIM: gtfastbackgt Cardomain site

Solo2 has some information on brake pads that may be of interest to you.

Who makes the brake pads with most grip? I don't care if they make a lot of dust or wear quickly, I want the best stopping power also. This is for an 87 GT BTW.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 03-26-2004).]

I am doing an upgrade after driving my car a bit after buying it. It seemed OK, but nothing special. I started reading a lot about fade, though, after only a few brake applications, and about bad fade on long downhills and also about total fade in autocrossing etc etc. That is a major reason for doing an upgrade. There is a downside; you will invariably be increasing your unsprung weight, but that is the price, it seems. It DOES seem remarkable that the honda only improved that little bit, but there may have been other benefits they didn't get into...?

I had a number of MGB's a long time ago - also a single thickness rotor. Roughly the same for total weight as a fiero. I warped one set of rotors with one really hard super panic stop. There is just not that much mass to absorb heat, and that is prob the toughest thing to get around. There is not really any replacement for mass and heat dispersing ability (combination of mass and surface area). So if you are planning on doing any 'spirited' driving, or you live in a hilly or mountainous area, you might take that into acct.

If you push your brakes past the limit, the rotors will get red hot (you've seen the racing pix, right?). That heat will be 'passed' to the pads. Stock pads will vapourize almost on contact; that is why they put the cooling holes/grooves in rotors - to get rid of the gasses that form at the pad/rotor interface. It isn't for 'cooling' - it is to release that gas. When you feel fade, the pad is still pushing against the rotor, it just isn't all in contact anymore. There is a boundary layer of gas or else you have temporarily glazed the pads' surfaces.

If you do get pads that will put up with that kind of heat then I would suggest they will be "Dangerous" to use in every day driving. Unless you are going to change pads back and forth for different types of driving? But such pads would have to be kept very hot to be effective and won't work hardly at all when cold (like in city traffic). Talk to Wilwood, ask about different pads for different applications; there will be something but there will again be a trade off.
Good luck!

Thanks, I'll check the links. But I guess I still have the same question as avengador1 stated. Who makes the best pads that have better bite?

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kjstauffer
86 Fiero SE - 2.8 V6 - 4 speed Muncie

I have an 85 Se 4 cyl. When I first bought it , the brakes were terrible. I replaced the fronts and rears, and still no pedal. I then replaced the rears w/ 93 Grand Am Fronts. They are Only slightly larger dia, But they are vented and twice the thickness. Real easy swap, and cheap too. You could get new rotors, pay someone too cross drill,and maybe slot for proboly the same price as orig. Let me tell ya after relacing the rears,and all brake lines, including SS flex lines, my brakes work awesome. They only lock up when I want. Not that lockup is good. You know what I mean. I also have a manual proportiong valve that I need to add, But thats the least of my fiero worries now. You could maybe find hardcore pads for the G.A. brakes. I'll have to check. hope this helped....Eric All my Upgrades were done because of price. The SS flex lines were cheaper than stock, And the rear calipers were half the price of stock. Call me cheap. unqualified whatever. My brakes work awesome. I'm no expert, just my opinion......

[This message has been edited by Erockrocket (edited 03-27-2004).]

I have an 88 GT and when I bought it I noticed that the brakes were not effective even with new pads and turned rotors. I replaced hoses, Master Cylinder and tried EBC green pads. No difference. Then I installed SS brake lines on the front. The difference was dramatic with only the fronts changed. I can't wait to get the rear ones on. Spend the $125.00 and get the SS hoses you won't be sorry.

I am like avengador1, who makes the pads with the most grip. I don't care if they only last 5000 miles.
Don

I'm sure I'll get flamed or rated negative for this... so be it. I'm sick of people claiming they know something they don't.

I don't read many of these brake upgrade threads any more for various reasons... mainly because of people that claim they know more than they do... This one is a bit different because of what is really being asked.

The simple fact is that there is really nothing wrong with the Fiero OE brake system for most uses. Yes, autocross and certain other things can exceed the OE system but what I'm hearing here isn't that.

Long hills.... If some people would learn to drive these would not be a problem. NO brake system on earth will tolerate such abuse! My mother ate several sets of rotors on a Chevy Monza because she used the brake all the time. (Same solid front rotor as Fiero for all practical purposes) I took the car over and never ate another rotor. Why? Because I down shifted and let the engine do what it should under those conditions. And yes, you can down shift an automatic and no you won't fry it unless you are a nitwit. More than a few inexperienced truck drivers have had tire fires precisely because of this. Brake fade on a downgrade is ALWAYS because of driver incompetence. (99.99999% of the time anyway...)

The main problem with OE Fiero brakes is down to a very small number of things.

1. Age. Bloody few people replace any more fluid than might be needed to bleed a replacement part. Old fluid will trash the calipers and MC. Most cars never have any fluid bled. Add thousands of miles of driving and it is a wonder that any brake system works after 5 years let alone 15-20. (This is true of nearly all cars on the road today.)

Read the posts above... They bought the car blah blah blah... They didn't do any repairs or if they did they didn't do them right. I drive the hell out of my OE system and have never once had any of the problems certain forum members say are common. But then these are the same people that claim all Fiero need total polyurethane suspension and there is a huge bump steering problem that really doesn't exist if you put decent struts on the car.

2. Incompetence. Even fewer people than item one know how to work on a 4 wheel disk system. Many so-called professionals know only slightly more than most car owners. This includes many ASE certified people. Taking a test and applying knowledge to hundreds of models are two different things. (This is a lesson that many people are finally learning about A+ Net+ CNE MCSE and other certs in the computer world.)

3. Poor maintenance. (See 2) stuck slides and anything else that binds the brakes even slightly above design spec will preheat the system. This preheat will result in a major increase in fade and fluid boil problems for all brake systems. Add in old fluid and fluid boil is really easy to reach.

4. Design. Fiero has one major design issue. This is the internals of the rear pistons. This defect leads to excessive rear caliper clearance and is a very common cause of low pedal and poor system performance. The only fix is to replace the rear pistons when they are bad. Many rebuilders reuse the bad pistons so don't assume a rebuilt rear caliper is any better than the one it replaced. I'm told GM dealers can still get a certain GM parts kit for rebuilding the rears but I can't remember the number. Even with that kit the rebuild isn't fool proof and a botched rebuild is as bad as no rebuild. Worse since a botched rebuild will likely leak fluid all over.

You don't need better pads or any other upgrade for common driving in Fiero. What you do need is to learn how the system really works and how to return the system to it's original function. In 99%+ of cases people that are telling you to do one or another upgrades don't know the first thing about brakes let alone how to qualify an upgrade.

kjstauffer
In your specific case... I would rebuild/replace all calipers. Replace all rotors. Use good pads from Raybestos or any other brand you like. AND flush Valvoline Synpower synthetic DOT 4 fluid thru the system. (Flush the MC and lines before installing the new calipers.) The Valvoline fluid is allot more tolerant of the stuff that gets missed in flushing that any DOT 3 rated fluid and performs better longer than many very expensive racing fluids. (Fluids are covered in my cave.) [Synpower fluid is DOT 3 compatible.]

If your flex lines at each wheel are showing any damage then replace all them as well. Do Not install Stainless Steel lines. While many will tell you SS lines are better, again, many don't know what they are bloody talking about. SS lines have NO advantage over OE line in a street driven car. They don't wear better. They don't perform better. SS lines were developed to address specific problems none of which 99.9% of vehicle owners will ever encounter.

SS lines have fatal design issues of their own. Specifically it is rather common that a single strand of the braid can break and punch the liner. Same result as cutting the line... no brakes. Racers don't have this happen often because competent racers replace anything that moves anywhere from every race to every season. For a competent race operation, the SS lines simply don't age enough to fail. This one problem alone is why very few SS line products can meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. The ones that do only just started to and the jury is still out on how well they really last.

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The only thing George Orwell got wrong was the year.

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by James Bond 007: When I first picked up my little Fiero,comeing off the freeway was down right scarey,I wasn't used to the stopping power of the stock Fiero brakes,so I decided to install new brake pads,I was surprised to see that my little Fiero had fairly new pads installed.I then made up my mind to do the Grand am brake upgrade,I haven't had a chance to drive it yet because I still need to register the car,but in the driveway they seem to grip much better (but you lose the emergency brake) Try the link below, for the proportioning valve mod I considered this mod ,but I had too much trouble locating the specified spring and bleeding the brakes, the thought of changeing the Proportioning valve spring,if I didn't like the performance, didn't sound too hot, so I opted for the Grand am brake upgrade..... http://www.webelectricproducts.com/99/4/brakes.htm

In the driveway they seem to grip much better? You've got to be kidding us...

You don't gain anything with a Grand Am upgrade except more weight and a vented rotor... same size rotors, same size pads. Why do you think they grip better? Maybe you replaced all the worn components and put fresh fluid thru the system and bled it?

I like the idea of a vented rotor, but that isn't going to make any change your going to see off a racecourse for fade resistance.

Larger diameter brake rotor swaps are mainly for looks, I've got a complete lebaron upgrade setup I was going to put on my 87 coupe before it got stolen and stripped. It was mainly for looks thru the 17" rims, although I felt it was an improvement over the stock setup.

Best bet for street driven car. Quality pads (I prefer OE on most modern cars), FLUSH the system with fresh brake fluid, replace any worn flex hoses, clean and lube the caliper slides with synthetic caliper slide grease ( a little goes a long way), and make sure rotors aren't warped , replace if needed and clean the hubs where the slipon ones mount, rust, dirt, etc can push the rotor out of parallel and cause clunks/warping etc as the rotor pushes the pads apart and creates hot spots.

quote Originally posted by theogre: The simple fact is that there is really nothing wrong with the Fiero OE brake system for most uses.

I agree. thanks for the fluid advice and the high temp grease reminder. I read your page before I rebuilt my brakes. My pedal is rock hard and the brakes rock.

I have also become a fan of the Mityvac bleeding kit.

theorge,
I always enjoy reading your comments, very enlightening. I have the Corvette 12" brake upgrade on one of my Formulas, but I agree with you on everything you stated. In normal driving, the Fiero has more than adequate brakes. But then again, I'm one of those guys that knows just enough to get myself into trouble. Keep up the good work. BTW, I tried to give you another postive rating, but it won't let me do it again.

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Ron
88 Formula, 4.9, auto, daily driver
88 Formula, 3800 SCII/4T65E Swap in Process, almost done.
88 Formula, 5 Spd, 3.4 TDC Swap in Process, just started.
88 Formula, Stock, 5 Spd, T Top, Special Days Only!
02 Dodge Ram Diesel with 32 foot Gooseneck Fiero Transport.

I just went through my brake and they are working much better than before. They could use a little bleeding i think. My question is, I have been able to lock up the brakes so does it really get any better than that?

Lets try this again.

While I agree with most of the comments, including the detailed list from Theogre, and I also believe that the Fiero's OE brakes are fine for most everyday driving, I believe there is room for improvement. My reference to the "Grassroots Motorsports" test was to note that bigger rotors may not be the way to go.

My original post was to look at two simple, inexpensive mods to perhaps improve overall brake performance. If 60 to zero distances of 150 feet are adequate for you use fine. If I can shorten that to 130 to 135 feet I believe that is safer and better as long as I do not compromise some other aspect of the overall braking performance. The two simple mods that I was looking for information on were 1) Are better performance pads available to improve things like bite, temperature resistance, etc. and 2) Does anyone have any experience with adjustable proportioning valves.

This second question is important because apparently most factory set ups were designed to insure the fronts lock up first under all conditions. Getting the rears to carry a little more of the normal braking load (but still not locking up first) will result in shorter stopping distances and to my way of thinking would be an improvement. An adjustable proportioning valve would seem to be a simple (though perhaps risky for some drivers) way to tweak the front/rear bias for optimum braking.

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kjstauffer
86 Fiero SE - 2.8 V6 - 4 speed Muncie

Well said theogre,

I am amazed at the misunderstanding of the proper operation of components, and misinformation that sometimes gets passed as fact. I do believe the SS lines are a waste for normal day to day driving. People who see an imporvement after instaling them, are most likely seeing it because they are swapping out there 19year old rubber lines that were weak and close to failure to begin with. I am fleet manager and head mechainc of a 20+ vehicle ambulance fleet. As standard safety operations, all rubber lines are replaced every 2 years regardless of mileage. Agreed this seems like overkill, but a $50 rubber line is way cheaper than killing a crew in the event of a failure. And believe me, i have seen these lines fail.

I do however plan to upgrade my brakes because of the added weight and abuse that the 3800SC swap will be adding. But the real reason for the bigger rotors, is because i am vain......18inch wheels just dont look right in front of those tiny rotors

Ambulance dude

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85 GT undergoing a 2000 3800SC transplant. The wiring hell ugh......headach. Digital dash in progress.........more wiring ugh. Making it all work together.........wheres my advil

90 GMC suburban (for sale $3000 firm or trade for a good running fiero! ask for details, pic below)

1985 Fiero SE 5speed 4holer, this MIGHT become the 3800 car
2000 dodge intrepid- the daily driver (snore)
2000 Ford focus (SHO engine swap soon!)
2004 BMW Z4 convert, cause gotta have a bitchin chick magnet!
AIM: Ambulancemech

kjstauffer

I would bet that like most people you aren't getting even stock performance levels. This is because of one or more items I listed above or in my cave. Especially the problems known to the rear pistons.

Lets say for a moment your system is perfect.

Getting a 15-20 foot reduction in braking distance is a big job. You are often looking at not only brakes but the entire suspension and the tires. Getting 20 feet below original spec's of a stock system on any vehicle is going to mean major work.

Assuming there are no problems with the brakes... Which would be rare... You'll likely get a better reduction in stopping distance from good, properly inflated, tires and new shocks/struts than any small thing you can change on the OE brakes. Fiero OE struts were crap to start with and aren't any better after years of driving. Those crappy struts are one reason people think Fiero has a huge rear axle bump steer problem as well. If the shocks/struts aren't properly controlling bodyroll and wheel vibration durring braking then your stopping distances will suffer tremendously.

You have to be careful with "performance" pads. Many are actually dangerous on the street because they don't work well when cold. Depending on the specific compound and the condition of the brakes, they can be too cold to work any time you haven't used them for a few miles. Such pads can cause really unpredictable street performance.

The prop valve doesn't work like many people think it does. That valve only operates when you get way up on line pressure, like 600-700 PSIG. Under most driving you won't cycle the prop valve at all. You have to mash the pedal pretty hard for it to activate. Most of the time they won't trip in anything less than a complete panic stop.

An orifice in the valve will slightly delay rear brakes but doesn't affect total line pressure. That orifice is critical because you want the rears to always lag the fronts a tiny bit. Crap and corrosion buildup in the orifice or in the prop valve can increase the rear delay which would be a problem. The only sure fix is a new combination valve assembly. Trying to fix a crapped up combi valve is a bad idea.

Ignoring the hand brake... The Fiero rear brakes are mechanically identical to the fronts with one major difference... The rear pistons are smaller. This is intentional and just about every factory vehicle on the planet is done like that. The difference in front and rear piston size is what determines brake bias under all conditions that don't trip the prop valve. (Oddly the rear rotor is slightly thicker than the front but everything else is the same.)

Even the aftermarket brake places like Baer and Willwood recomend this method of biasing the system. The reason is safety. People that bias the system using only a prop valve are asking for a nasty surprise if the prop valve quits, which it is likely to do if it is cycling constantly. Nearly all prop vavles made for race applications aren't intended for constant daily use.

Assuming that the system is otherwise good... Anyone having any kind of rear brake issue need to really go after the rear calipers. The first thing to check is rear pad clearance. If it way out then try the manual adjustment in my cave. If it won't stay where it should then the rear pistons are bad. I can't emphasize enough how critical this issue is.

Why would vented rotors help on the back? The front brakes do 90% of the braking!

I challange anyone with a good working stock system to try and overheat their rear brakes... lol

quote Originally posted by kjstauffer: Instead of going to the expense of larger diameter rotors and rims are there any high performance pads available made of materials providing more bite (see comment below). Also, has anyone ever tried an adjustable proportioning valve to fine tune the front to rear bias for optimum stopping distance?

I scanned through this thread and never saw the original question answered. If it has been I apparently missed it amongst all the usual brake blabbering.

I like Porterfield R4-S pads. They're about the same as most typical street pads when cold, and when you get some heat in them they work great.

On my race car I removed the stock proportioning valve and installed an adjustable valve in the cabin. This is useful for tuning front / rear lockup at the limit of traction for race conditions. It may or may not be of any value on a street driven car.

I hope this helps some,

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Doug Chase
Chase Race
Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication

.................

I think it is reasonable to assume that a few people were simply suggesting options or else trying to get a feel of the context of the user's intentions, and also were just trying to be positive and helpful......

I DO know someone who is 'pretty good' at autocross and has done lapping days on a track. BOTH of these are my intentions for my car too, and are pretty popular goals for fiero types, it seems! He found his GrandAm upgrade (front only) faded "pretty quickly" on the track; ie after only about a couple of laps. He used his brakes heavily, as you want to do in that situation, and they didn't stand up. So much so that the Mustangs (etc) were soon just flying by him and he couldn't really push his car by maintaining a higher rate of speed. He is fanatical about his car and maintains it religiously, by the way...

So when the thread started I am going to assume that people tended to think that the poster was interested in getting more out of his brakes and maybe wanted to push them harder and get higher performance for a reason. I think that is reasonable, and that they came back with suggestions on that basis.

No flame, no BAD intentions here, just - like most everyone here - just trying to offer some experiences for other people to share and to increase their knowledge base.
for what it is worth

Well I have read all the post and it is amazing that tha man just asked a simple question like what is the best pads for stopping on the Fiero. I have not seen one post where anyone said Bendix,Raybestas,Auto Zone,Wagner, GM, Napa, Car Quest, Orielly, Advance, and on and on. Boy I must be stupid.
Don

That is because there is no best pad.

Performance pads that work well for one person often don't for the next. If you are autocrossing you might want to plan on changing pads for racing then putting in normal pads for street use. Or build a car dedicated for autocross. Here is a link to a Popular Science article you might find interesting.

If I remember right... Someone in Europe recently showed a car that could stop from 60 or maybe faster in less than 100 feet. It had absolutely massive brakes for the size of the car. They looked like the stuff you would stop a loaded Ford F450 Super Duty with. (One of few full size trucks ever offered with 4 wheel disk.) It also had massive rubber just to hold traction under that much brake load.

Most normal retail pads will perform roughly the same as any other. Especialy since they might be made by the same company depending what brands are involved. I've been doing this stuff for over 20 years and have never seen any significant performance change between the retail pad brands. A couple of the newer offerings, like ceramic, may resist fade better but still likely won't last long for autocross.

Many of the brands you just listed are pretty much the same. Some are very likely even made by the same comany. Ferodo/Wagner makes for several store brands. Likely Bendix and Raybestos also make a couple "store" brands but I don't remember who makes which.

NAPA is a good example of a company that makes almost nothing. They buy stuff and rebrand it just like Sears has always done with Kenmore and jack the price in the process. NAPA parts are rarely better than Raybestos Moog etc but they nearly always cost more.

It is like comparing Interstate to Diehard in batteries. Both brands are made by Johnson Controls and I'd bet if there is any difference at all between them you won't find it easily. (Other than cosmetic things like labels and case color)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 03-27-2004).]

Thanks to everyone for there input. I think we can put the subject to rest now.

Among the 12 pages there was some really good information, some even about the questions I asked! But what seemed like simple questions to me were not as simple as I thought. Many thanks to theogre (particularly the second posting), fiero308, and others for providing some really helpful "secondary" information that perhaps I and some others have been missing. As a new member and a new Fiero owner I appreciate the openness of this forum.

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kjstauffer
86 Fiero SE - 2.8 V6 - 4 speed Muncie

"SS lines have fatal design issues of their own. Specifically it is rather common that a single strand of the braid can break and punch the liner. Same result as cutting the line... no brakes. Racers don't have this happen often because competent racers replace anything that moves anywhere from every race to every season. For a competent race operation, the SS lines simply don't age enough to fail. This one problem alone is why very few SS line products can meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. The ones that do only just started to and the jury is still out on how well they really last."

I also remember Skitimes brake upgrade, where he said he found in his state that SS lines are not legal.... Having said that I think that the reasons that the braiding might frey is exposure.. Debris, and rocks kicked up could hit the lines, or the lines coming in contact with control arms.... I think the solution is to protect the lines with shrink tubing... The shrink tubing would protect the lined from debris/rocks, and would keep the braids from getting gunked up with road grime. I would do with an industrial grade... Something oil/abrasion resistant.

Orge... I respect all the research you have done, and I really like the cave... You bring a LOT to the Fiero world...
All the info you have listed in the Cave is important and valuble... If you are thinking of messing with your brakes... read the cave first....

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quote Originally posted by ManiMack: Why would vented rotors help on the back? The front brakes do 90% of the braking! I challange anyone with a good working stock system to try and overheat their rear brakes... lol

Just to let you know the Fiero its a mid engine car and there for it needs more stopping power in the rear than a front engine car, I'll challenge you to take the time to do a search on mid engine cars brakes specs, you will agree with me, and that its why the Fiero has the same size calipers and rotors all the way around, and even cars such as the NSX Acura, has the rear rotors even larger, than the front ones.

The same principle applies to the wheels/tires combo.

Take care, and this is just as an educational contribution. Thanks!

"I also remember Skitimes brake upgrade, where he said he found in his state that SS lines are not legal.... "

Yeah, that simple statement should send up a red flag and chills down your spine. I think you might find that any changes from the OE system, used on public streets, might be illegal. And don't try to dismiss this illegality as trivial. You could end up being very surprised if you find yourself involved in an accident and are proved to have been operating a vehicle with non-OEM approved systems. Driving a car with NO EMERGENCY BRAKES? I'd hate to be your defense attorney. Expect your insurance company to simply walk away from the situation, "uh, sorry not OUR problem." You could end up facing both criminal and civil liability. If you are going to do things like this, check with your insurance, check your state and local laws. Have $1M+ umbrella liability policy -and even that might not apply or be enough. How much does it cost to reattach limbs, lifetime of physical therapy/assisted living, compensation for loss of life? I don't know, but for me, the ramifications just aren't worth it.

Look I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, and believe me when I say, I completely agree with your legal assesment.... But just because you switch from OEM rubber to stainless steel brake lines doesn't mean you give up your ebrake.....

You might be thinking of the different calipers maybe?, that don't allow you to use the Fiero's Ebrake?

Is so, than the particular law that states your are illegal, "I think" is the unsafe vehicle law....

intlcutlass,

Sorry if I appeared to singling anyone out, just speaking to the topic in general. SS lines may very well be legal in some jusrisdictions ... and not in others. A modification that results in no e-brake, pads that don't work under typical everyday driving, proportioning valves that behave unpredictably on wet pavement ... I'm just saying, in general, before you leap into making changes, check into what could happen, what you could be responsible for, if something goes horribly wrong. A friend of mine is fond of saying, "it's all laughs and fun, until someone loses an eye". I'd hate to learn of someone who'd lost their capacity to enjoy this hobby because of an injury either to themselves or someone else.

I couldn't agree more.....

Before I decided on what to do with my brakes..... (yes I have "upgraded" them, I read.. alot... then I read some more. I did a ton of research. I read Orges cave, I looked into what others have done, and HMS WCF brake systems.... I decided the best thing (for me), was the 12" C4 rotor upgrade on my 88. Reason is, it retaines the OEM calipers, and ebrake, and I didn't have to change any of the other stuff (IE master cyl, or valves)... The C4 rotors are the same thickness as the stock 88 Fiero rotors, so all you are doing is moving the caliper out a little. You do need bigger wheels to do this, and a special made set of brackets.... This is the same brake upgrade Skitime has done. I am not done with mine yet though because I am still saving the $$$ for the rear 18" Koni's....

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quote Originally posted by prof bobo: "I also remember Skitimes brake upgrade, where he said he found in his state that SS lines are not legal.... " Yeah, that simple statement should send up a red flag and chills down your spine. I think you might find that any changes from the OE system, used on public streets, might be illegal. And don't try to dismiss this illegality as trivial. You could end up being very surprised if you find yourself involved in an accident and are proved to have been operating a vehicle with non-OEM approved systems. Driving a car with NO EMERGENCY BRAKES? I'd hate to be your defense attorney. Expect your insurance company to simply walk away from the situation, "uh, sorry not OUR problem." You could end up facing both criminal and civil liability. If you are going to do things like this, check with your insurance, check your state and local laws. Have $1M+ umbrella liability policy -and even that might not apply or be enough. How much does it cost to reattach limbs, lifetime of physical therapy/assisted living, compensation for loss of life? I don't know, but for me, the ramifications just aren't worth it.

Sorry I have owned 6 or more fieros and OEM fiero brakes SUCK and pose a more immediate danger than having
"no ebrake" does.
if you are at the speed where you might "detatch" your or another persons limb your ebrake will NOT help you stop.
It will complicate the controlalility of your car.
Have you EVER hit your ebake when doing just 45 mph?
I'm more concerred about 0-100 ricers and Drunks than I am about those "scandalous ebrake removers."
That is all.

Whether or not the emergency brake will help prevent or exascerbate an accident, is irrelevant. Whether or not any modification will make your car demonstrably safer, is irrelevant.

If you are involved in an accident ... AND if someone is injured or killed ... AND if a clever lawyer discovers you modified your vehicle in ways deemed illegal in the jurisdiction in which the accident occured ...

You could find yourself in very serious trouble. Your insurance company could abandon you, it is not their desire to pay, it is their goal not to pay -if they can find a way out, they will take it. At the very least you would have a large financial obligation for the rest of your life. Worst case scenario, you'd face charges of manslaughter or vehicular homicide. You could end up in jail.

I'm in no position to tell people what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just pointing out what can happen, what has happened. It is up to you to decide the amount of risk you can accept. For me, at least, here in Madison County IL, the last thing I'd want to do is be anywhere near the wrong side of a personal injury case.

So any car that has had oem brake mod have this same issue.. I do understand the IF and IF and IF statement ...
and anyone that has s 32 ford with a mustang II rack has this issue as well.
./Essentialy any car that has ever had it's DRUM brakes removed does...
this is a legal issue...
speaking from the perspective of someone who has a bad knee from an accident I have first hand expreience of what lawyers can do (my lawyers)...
I guess that me being able to stop in time...... to AVOID those issues is the wy I'll avoid those legal issues.

You do have a point, but when we allow lawyers to rule our lives (and in my opinion lessen out braking ability)
we have gone to far.

[This message has been edited by NY_FIERO (edited 05-20-2004).]

quote Originally posted by prof bobo: SS lines may very well be legal in some jusrisdictions ... and not in others. .

In the U.S., most states only require that brake hoses (and lots of other parts) meet D.O.T. standards ... and each manufacturer, not an independent testing laboratory, is responsible for doing its own certification of D.O.T. compliance.

I like the stainless lines, but that's my choice. As I've posted on PFF before, the Earl's braided stainless brake hoses (as sold by The Fireo Store) are not D.O.T. compliant. Earl's even notes the lack of D.O.T. compliance, at least twice and in bold-face type, in their catalog; The Fiero Store catalog is silent on this issue.

Russell Performance Products makes braided stainless brake hoses that they state are D.O.T. compliant, but I have no personal experience with them.

Incidentally, I believe that the primary issue of D.O.T. compliance with respect to braided stainless brake hoses is localized flexure at the fittings. These hoses use a Teflon (or some similar material) liner which is considerably stiffer and more "brittle" than rubber, and thus more resistant to bending. If you've ever crimped a metal tube while trying to bend it. you've seen exactly what the Teflon liner will do when bent too sharply; the difference is that you can see the damage to the metal tube, but the stainless braid may conceal similar damage to the Teflon liner.

Finally, if you already have braided stainless hoses on your car and are more concerned with safety than with the "bling-bling" factor, you can easily protect them somewhat from external damage with a length of split wire loom and some zip ties. It will still be easy to occasionally remove the split loom and inspect the hoses, which I strongly recommend. A simple check (standard aircraft inspection practice) for broken strands in the braid is to wrap a clean rag around the hose and slide it back and forth the entire length of the hose several times. A broken strand of braid will snag the cloth. (That's why you use a rag ... better to snag the cloth than your skin.)

Of course ... your mileage may vary.

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'88 Formula
Project Testostarossa
"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing."

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-20-2004).]

In my mind, the possibility of avoiding an accident altogether with a carefully planned and executed brake upgrade wins out over possible legal responsibilities after a crash.

Granted, I've seen upgrades that could only be described as "ghetto". The average person here though, knows what's smart and what's not. Take the Corvette upgrade. When done only to the fronts, they provide a decrease in stopping length.

I don't know about other people, but I would rather pay for lawsuits for severed limbs, than come home after killing someone with that extra 5-10 mph.

Nathan

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My Web page

I'd just like to say that I'm learning a lot on this forum so far and the discussion has been great. One thing I haven't seen addressed is the fact that...if you are able to lock up your brakes....no brake upgrade is going to shorten your stopping distances. Upgrading in size of rotor/caliper is understandable for someone who wants to upgrade something that may warp all the time because...well if for no other reason...it just plain isn't big enough. This will also help with the amount of work the brake is able to do in a given stop. An otherwise same exact rotor in everyway, but larger in size, is going to have less of a chance to warp and will have a better braking "feel" than its smaller diameter counterpart. Just don't expect to stop "shorter".

quote Originally posted by FastIndyFiero: Take the Corvette upgrade. When done only to the fronts, they provide a decrease in stopping length.

I have the four wheel corvette upgrade, but I'd really like to hear your argument on this. Because, to me that statement makes no sense at all. The corvette upgrade uses all stock equipment other than the bigger rotors (and brackets for the calipers). How would bigger rotors reduce your stopping distance?

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: In the U.S., most states only require that brake hoses (and lots of other parts) meet D.O.T. standards ... and each manufacturer, not an independent testing laboratory, is responsible for doing its own certification of D.O.T. compliance. I like the stainless lines, but that's my choice. As I've posted on PFF before, the Earl's braided stainless brake hoses (as sold by The Fireo Store) are not D.O.T. compliant. Earl's even notes the lack of D.O.T. compliance, at least twice and in bold-face type, in their catalog; The Fiero Store catalog is silent on this issue. Russell Performance Products makes braided stainless brake hoses that they state are D.O.T. compliant, but I have no personal experience with them.

I didn't know that.... That is some really great info.... Thanks!

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Goodridge makes a D.O.T approved Stainless-Steel Brake line for the Fiero.

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quote Originally posted by fierogt88: I have the four wheel corvette upgrade, but I'd really like to hear your argument on this. Because, to me that statement makes no sense at all. The corvette upgrade uses all stock equipment other than the bigger rotors (and brackets for the calipers). How would bigger rotors reduce your stopping distance?

Perhaps on an '88, but on an 84-87, Corvette calipers are used also. As far as just using larger rotors, moving your caliper farther outbound on the rotor increases leverage, plain and simple. There is also less fade nearing the end of a high-speed stop.