I see a lot of discusion on here compareing the 3800 sc sII to the cady 4.9. Does anyone have any head to head experience, or insight to compare the 3800 sc to the Northstar? I'm wondering about all aspects, off the line aceleration, 1/4 miles, all around performance, and the potential for increasing the performance of each. Have at it, lets hear some of your thoughts and experiences.

240hp stock vs 300hp stock
disadvantage of northstar is cost and difficulty due to its electronics if you want to use manual trans..
northstar is still the ultimate swap in my book but I'll most likely go 3.4 turbo

aother thing people forget is the northstar is mostly an upper RPM motor, once it gets going it'll scream where as the 3800 will grunt right off the line (or so I've researched and with the times being displayed)

stock for stock they run about the same times 13.5 from what I've seen

[This message has been edited by LoW_KeY (edited 07-09-2003).]

Is the Northstar signifigantly heavier than the 3800? I would think that it's aditional wieght would afect the handling of the car.

now don't quote me on this - but I believe i remember the northstar itself being about the same as the 2.8 but the automatic trans that comes with it is significantly heavier than the fieros transmissions so if you went manual northstar swap then it ends up weighing about the same.

quote Originally posted by fiero wrecker: Is the Northstar signifigantly heavier than the 3800? I would think that it's aditional wieght would afect the handling of the car.

Other way around. The 3800SC is heavier than the Northstar.

Uhh... last time I checked, the 4.6 was a Northstar, not the 4.9... If you're asking about the 4.9, it's just about the same difficulty wise as a 3800, if not easier...

I hope the Northstar is faster. Otherwise, I'm doing a helluva lot of work for nothing.....lol

I wanna put the cost issue to rest.

Would someone who has a 3.8SC post their financials? I would lvoe to read them and compare to my current situation. i don't think there is a HUGE difference in costs.

JM

------------------
Jonathan McCreery
86 GT Northstar
86 SE autocrosser in progress

SAVE THE SHAUN!!!

quote Originally posted by bushroot: I hope the Northstar is faster. Otherwise, I'm doing a helluva lot of work for nothing.....lol

northstar does have more potential

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: I wanna put the cost issue to rest. Would someone who has a 3.8SC post their financials? I would lvoe to read them and compare to my current situation. i don't think there is a HUGE difference in costs. JM

I wouldn't think so either. The main cost difference being the cost of the engine. Gotta have a flywheel, gotta have mounts and brackets, gotta work out (or pay someone to) the electronics.

I suppose there are some frame modifications that incur some additional costs if not a DIY job.

there is at least one company selling upgraded northstar engines - as for putting a turbo on anything.. not really the 3800sc because it already is being boosted.. I really want a northstar but I want to know that people have worked out all the electrical issues (ie- a new chip to run manual northstars) that and I would have to get creative with the exhaust, I don't like the idea of losing my trunk

From the research I've done, The Northstar yeilds a higher initial power, but but I haven't been able to find a lot of aftermarket, and what there is seems very experimental and expensive. The 3800 sc on the other hand apears to have a very established supply of performance parts. Is the Northstar still too new to expect much, or I guess the question is what is going to be abailable in the near future for it?

[This message has been edited by fiero wrecker (edited 07-10-2003).]

Regarding potential, bolt-ons aren't the only way to go.

Ok, from what I've read:

3800 Series II- 240hp
Bolt-on's abound (finally), about 300-350hp on strictly bolt-ons. Upgrade cost about $2500. As far as tear-down and rebuild max power, the highest I've seen is about 400hp, I think. I don't know any numbers from the turbo-super engines yet though. $???

4.6 (not 4.9) Northstar - 300
Hardly any bolt-ons. K&N $40
Internal mods, the baddest N* engine I've heard about had well over 900hp. A reliable, boosted (9psi) engine putting out 600hp can be had for about $18,000.

Anyway, from what I've researched, the Northstar 4.6 is capable of more max power, but without taking the engine apart, the 3800 will hit harder, for similar costs.

As for the 4.9, I don't think there's any bolt-ons, and hardly any internal work to be done, to get it past 200hp. Though it's probably one of the best bangs for low bucks.

Anyway, I'd like to hear from people with experience about this subject too.

Regards,

Kris

------------------

Little, Yellow, Different New sig pic with 17's coming soon!

There is an aftermarket for the Northstar. My heads/cams will be going to Avenger cylinder head at the end of the month. Ross has custom pistons in any compression ratio you like for about $600 a set. Eagle H-beam rods are about $500 for the Northstar. You should be able to get about 425-450hp naturally aspirated (much more if you drop the compression ratio and throw some intercooled boost at it). Of course, when it's modified like this the factory ECM is going to object a bit. Macc Engineering offers an ECM for $1200 set up for the 2000+ Northstar, or you can get one from CHRFAB for the 93-99. I think Will said they'll sell you an entire harness and ECM for about $1200.

If the goal is big horsepower in the first place, then why not just call Archie, and get real big horsepower without all that trouble and cost?

its mostly a matter of how much do you want? most people I know have been able to scare themselves with a northstar or a built up 3800sc

quote Originally posted by Dave Mathis: If the goal is big horsepower in the first place, then why not just call Archie, and get real big horsepower without all that trouble and cost?

I'm going to get on my soapbox for a moment. If I offend, remember that these are just my opinions.

I don't care for "agricultural" (read: pushrod)powerplants. I love that mentality, I really do. I have all I can take of it at work. "Just throw a smallblock with a carb and distributor in it". Hell, I even have one guy who prefers points and condenser ignition. As far as making "real big" power with a smallblock, I guess 1200hp on a CHRFAB Northstar must be somehow artificial and small?

Look at Will's project. He's going to be able to turn 9k. I know you can do that on a pushrod engine, but how many times can it be done before it fails? Newer engines are engineered to be more reliable, period. The materials are better, the machining tolerences are tighter, the control over variables is better (sophisticated control systems), everything has been fine tuned over the last 125 years or so. Powertrains will continue to get better as time goes on.

Now, as for the potential to produce more power, wouldn't a more efficient powerplant be capable of making more horsepower per liter? If you take away inefficiencies, it allows that wasted power to be transferred where you want it right? Look at valve train losses on a typical pushrod engine as opposed to a DOHC. Look at the reduced ring land on newer engines as opposed to older ones.

Okay, I'm done ranting now. I hope what I had to say made sense.

[This message has been edited by bushroot (edited 07-10-2003).]

Maybe I havn't been looking very hard but potential wise I think the N* wins. HP is a function of torque and rpm's right? The N* has the undisputed capability to out rev a 3800 from what I've seen and with that extra displacement it should be able to make atleast equal torque if setup properly. These are just my opinions.

Northstar has 750HP potential but who needs that much eh?, it is a very refined engine also and the engine cover looks cool lol

The thing about the Northstar is that upgrades are not sequential. 75 HP costs the same as 150 HP.

CHRFab heads and cams packages: $2500, Holley Commander: $1300

Bolt on and tune 150 HP.

It'll cost at least that much to get that power out of a 3800SC.

I guess that Nascar must be "agricultural"
All I am saying is that while I think that the N* is a compliment to any Fiero......very few will ever make 1200 horsepower in that venue. If all you want to do is out accelerate everyone else on the planet, there are probably more sensible ways to do it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bushroot:

I'm going to get on my soapbox for a moment. If I offend, remember that these are just my opinions.

I don't care for "agricultural" (read: pushrod)powerplants.

If I'm not mistaken, NASCAR cars are required by rules to a pushrod engine of a specific size (don't watch it, so I'm not sure what size). I don't see Formula 1 cars running around with large displacement cast iron pushrod engines....I'm not going to argue this point...It was just my opinion as I stated when I made my comments.

NASCAR runs sealed pushrod engines because they are CHEAP, at least by racing standards.

That's just like the tired argument that superchargers are better than turbos because top fuel dragsters use them. The truth is that the rules don't allow any kind of power adder other than a roots supercharger.

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: I wanna put the cost issue to rest. Would someone who has a 3.8SC post their financials? I would lvoe to read them and compare to my current situation. i don't think there is a HUGE difference in costs. JM

Depends who is doing the swap. I have less than $2500 in my Turbocharged 3800 Series II Fiero and that includes the purchase price of the car. I also did all the work myself.

Recently, I did an L67 swap for a "customer." He supplied the powertrain and car, I put it together. Here is the rundown of his costs:

-98 GTP engine, bad trans, wiring, PCM -- $2000
-Traded 4T65-EHD trans, wiring, and PCM in +$500 for a built up 4T60-E w/ warranty
-At the time, I charged him $1500 labor.
-He had a large amount of money in parts but stuff on his car needed to be replaced; CV axles, wheel hubs, brakes, etc; so you can imagine how much money he had in it when it was all said and done.

So, to run this all down for you, the typical L67 swap parts only is going to be about $2000-3000 depending on what you can get the powertrain for; this, assuming that you can use everything from the donor car without the engine or trans or your Fiero needing extensive repairs.

If you are like me and can do the work yourself, then you can go the ultimate cheap route and get ahold of a complete (with SC) L67 with a spun rod bearing by paying a $100 core charge, turn around and pay a machine shop $500 to fix it (thats all mine cost), get a junkyard core trans for free and have a friend rebuild it for $200, then spend some money on motor mounts, hoses, fluids, etc. Cost is totally dependent on how many new parts you want to throw at your car. I have the hook-up at a local junk yard and they let me get a bunch of little stuff like misc brackets, mounts, CV shafts, for little or nothing so I religiously use used parts whenever possible. For instance, why buy a brand new $70 CV shaft when I can get a good used one for $10. Been rolling on those same used CV shafts for 3+ years now, no problems.

Ultimately, this arguement is going to come down to availability of powerplants. I don't know about where you live but I don't see a whole lot of northstar engines and their transmissions in the junkyards by me. The L67/4T65-E combo is much more common, thus much less expensive. Less expensive to install too because there is not as much fabrication required.

As for the weight issue, I have been thru this many times and no one has yet to produce an accurate comparison. Somebody is always trying to compare a N*/5-speed to a L67/auto combo and that is just simply not conclusive. If you are talking auto/auto comparison, it is probably going to be close but I would bet the L67/4T65-E is going to be lighter than the N*/4L80-E when it is all said and done.

I consider the weights issue to be a dead issue because every time this issue comes up we have 20 different people trying to weigh 20 different cars equipped in 20 different ways on various types of truck or shipping scales and very seldomly those weighing systems get it right. If you want an accurate weight measure, you must use a 4-point "race" car scale system that is designed to accuratly measure the weight we are talking about when using the Fiero. Anything less is going to be hit or miss at best.

------------------
Fiero-related Conversions Performed:

1985 SE 3800 Series 1 SC 4T60-E
1987 Coupe 3800 Series II Turbocharged 4T60-E
1987 SE 3.4 TDC 5-speed
1984 Coupe SBC V8 non-OD to 4T60 OD swap, electric power steering install
1985 SE 3800 Series II Supercharged 4T60-E

http://dtcc.cz28.com

I think the northstar is a viable contender against the 3800 sc. It certainly fits the Fiero's intended image better. Not a drag machine but a high winding corner burner like a Ferrari that its design is heavily influenced by. Ive seen 308/328 Ferraris that could do a 10 1/4 mile and look at the small displacement of their motors. Of course there is a fair amount of money involved.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: As for the weight issue, I have been thru this many times and no one has yet to produce an accurate comparison. Somebody is always trying to compare a N*/5-speed to a L67/auto combo and that is just simply not conclusive. If you are talking auto/auto comparison, it is probably going to be close but I would bet the L67/4T65-E is going to be lighter than the N*/4L80-E when it is all said and done.

I can't give you a comparison to the North* or the 4.9, but my 3800 Series II SC out of a 2000 Buick Park Ave Ultra increased the weight of my car by 90lbs. 2780lbs with the 2.8, 2870lbs with the 3800. Moving the battery to the front, I was able to improve my corner-to-corner weight balance to within 13 lbs. Weighing was done with 4 pad racing scales before and after the swap with a full tank of gas each time.

------------------

www.fieroexcitement.com
Rate me if I've been helpful!

[This message has been edited by RBeaubien (edited 07-11-2003).]

quote Originally posted by fiero wrecker: Is the Northstar signifigantly heavier than the 3800? I would think that it's aditional wieght would afect the handling of the car.

20lbs, or so they say. It's funny, I have both sitting side-by-side in my garage, and they N* dwarfs the 2.8. The auto trans weighs in at about 300 wet, as compared to about 100 lbs with the standard, so I agree with your point if you go with the auto tranny. If you're using it for drag, it won't likely matter, just in the corners.

As for the rpm powerbands, high revs favor the available trannies, so I think the N* / standard is a cinch.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: don't take me raising the BS flag on you personally, but you are incorrect. The northstar has more potential to cost you more money to get it to do much more than stock. When using the L67, you are just a supercharger pulley swap away from going faster. Not to mention how many aftermarket vendors that are offering stuff for the L67 these days. If we want to talk about ultimate speed numbers, the fastest GTP is running deep into the 11s in the 1/4 mile; how many caddys do you see going that fast? I have yet to see even 1 N* powered fiero running 11s; but have already seen a couple L67 powered Fieros running those numbers.

just because the numbers haven't been demonstraited doesn't mean the potential isn't there.. Like many have said on here there don't seem to be any L67 fieros pushing more than 400hp..
but if the northstar can put out 400 hp with a cam swap for 800$ I think i would have to call that more potential - Hell I'm sure that a northstar fiero could push those numbers with just a shot of nitrous reliably.

3.8sc has can get instant gains quickly because it is already boosted, however it will never have more potential because it has lower displacement and only 2 valves per cyl - northstar is .8 liters more and flows a lot better - and has been proven to go up to 1200hp.

I suspect that main reason you don't see drag numbers for northstars is that the people doing the swaps tend to do it because it has more finess and will put out very reliable power - the more you push an already boosted engine the faster it dies. Their priority isn't drag racing so they don't feel the need to go drag so they can post time slips, they just enjoy having a fast car that they can drive every day.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: No offense to anyone so don't take it personally, but I know of at least 2 11 sec L67 powered Fieros and many more 12 sec L67 powered fieros including my hybrid. The way I see it you N* guys owe me an 11 sec N* powered Fiero.

How many L67 Fieros do you know of? Lots How many Northstar Fieros? At most 6 on the forum. wcapman and I are the only who've posted times.

I don't owe you a dern thing. I'm working on my car for personal gratification, not to prove anything to anyone.

quote Originally posted by Will: How many L67 Fieros do you know of? Lots How many Northstar Fieros? At most 6 on the forum. wcapman and I are the only who've posted times. I don't owe you a dern thing. I'm working on my car for personal gratification, not to prove anything to anyone.

So all you proved was L67 Fiero owners have a proven performance swap with times and a great number of swap owners to back them. And N* star owners are far and few and haven't posted any good times nor do they plan to. Thanks for enlightening me, I think I'll buy an L67. See you at the finish line, thats if my overloaded wallet isn't slowing me down because I didn't waste money on a motor thats clearly overkill from the second you hit the gas. This goes for all V8 owners (except CaliKid) make your car hook up before you blow smoke up everyones ass about 1/4 mile times. Face it most of you get no traction, get well below 20 mpg and run 13's even with ungodly amounts of horse power and torque. All while a little v6 with a crappy factory supercharger and a pulley change are kicking your asses for half the price and pulling much better 60' times, and most importantly much much much higher MPG.

[This message has been edited by USFiero1 (edited 07-11-2003).]

where did that come from? I thought some V8 guys were getting almost 30mpg

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I think you are grossly misinformed, will. A $300 cam and a $100 pulley and some exhaust work (less than $200) are capable of gaining you 150hp on an L67 if you do it right. Hell, add some race gas and get more.

I thought this sounded really fishy when I first read it. I wanted to talk to my GTP buddy before calling you on it, though.

Here's what he had to say:

quote I think his expectations are just a WEEEEEEEE bit high. To put it into perspective I'll even give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is talking 150 flywheel horsepower. That would put him right at 390-400 horsepower. Using the "standard" 20% drivetrain loss, that would put him between 312-320 wheel horsepower. Now, I have a fairly big cam, fully ported heads (with 1.84"/1.60" oversized valves), gasket matched intake manifold, 3.0" pulley (with 0 knock), TOG headers (with a cutout, so that's as free flowing as it gets), and then the other BPUs. With all this, I am MAYBE near the 300 wheel HP mark. With custom tuning and race gas (and prolly a slightly smaller pulley) I would be able to eclipse that mark. The prices of each part are... Cam - $300 (+$100 if you install it yourself) -Bear in mind too that if you want to hit 300+ wheel HP w/o an intercooler, you will NEED a cam that REQUIRES upgraded springs/retainers and AT LEAST some work done to the valve guides to make everything safe Heads similar to mine - $1800 now'adays Modular Pulley system and a couple pulleys ($200) Headers - $700 if you know people Cutout $30 Intake manifold - Free to port if you have it off the car Home Depot Intake $50-70 Not to mention a custom tuned PCM to hit 300 wheel HP w/o an IC - $600-700 To say that I'm not doing things right would be a poor statement IMO. The cam and heads work very well together, I'm running a "small" pulley without any knock, and have plenty of supporting exhaust work. If he knows a secret to all this, then I'll pay him the $600 for a motor that makes over 300 wheel horsepower. :-)

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-11-2003).]

i just read this thread and i dont know what to say..different strokes for different folks...my best idea is to replace the crap 2.8 and exchange it with some lighter or just a little heavyer like a 3800..just thinking if ur goning to drop a 500lb n motor why not go with a 350(tons more parts for it then the n motor??NO FLAMING TO ANY ONE SO DO NOT PICK MY WORDS APART BTW darth love the bs meter