FJ: The EV1 wasn't based on the Storm. The project was cancelled because of America's nearly total lack of interest in the product, the changing political landscape, the huge amounts of money that GM has lost on it over the years and the brighter future that both fuel cell and hybrid technologies appear to offer. For the truly "green" of society, this project is a painful loss . . but even with considerable tax incentives, GM was only able to entice a handful of people into the experiment. In the meantime both Honda and Toyota have introduced hybrids which reach reasonable levels of efficiency and cleanliness at a fraction of the price. And those vehicles are now mass-marketed. (The EV-1 was only available in CA and AZ). So, RIP EV-1, long live its evolutionary successors.

FJ: The idea of using an electric motor to power the pump is not new. It's called electrohydraulics. IF the '89 Fiero had been produced, it would have had an EH unit running a power rack. (The '88 model test mules being the subject of many Fiero fables). In any case, in the mid-80's Subaru put EHPS on their XT-6, and then Toyota built it into the MR-2. As emissions and mileage issues have become ever more important than sales price, many new cars have some variation of EHPS now standard. Volkswagens have it, the new Saturn Vue, and several other models. Most companies have experiemented with it, and I believe you'll see it on more new cars in the coming years.

There is a weight savings in going EH, plus it does put the equipment in the front instead of <more> in the back. In addition, it removes one more belt from the motor, although the additional electrical drag will somewhat offset the lack of direct pump power drain on the usable output of the engine itself.

So will it work on a Fiero? Will it be as usable as a pulley-driven pump? I don't know. Yet. Part of my project this winter is to modify the EH equipment from a 1994 MR-2 for use in powering the Merkur rack we've been talking about in this thread. I'll have to keep you posted on that issue as it progresses. This is my busy time at work, so progress is stopped until after the first of the year. But it sure is an intriguing concept, isn't it?

If I cared what anybody else thought, why in the hell would I drive a Fiero..?

Although while screwing with my now-defunct drivers side headlight motor at the hardware store a guy complimented me on my car and mentioned how one of his buddies really wants one.

LMAO!!! Well, I think that he made a 'homemade' turbo kit and put it on a V-6 and now he think's he know's EVERYTHING and EVERYWAY that is the best way to modify a Fiero. It is either Dennis' way or the wrong way....
If it is a pointless modification in Dennis' eye's, he ALWAY'S has to drive the point home. I mean if a Fiero was meant to have a turbo Dennis, GM would have produced them that way.... another pointless modification to some people also.... But, I wonder how many folk have talked sh!t about his turbo?? Probably not many... WHY?? Because people respect, or DID respect the work you put into it and even the "doing it" factor.... It's called ...Ummm, Are you listening Dennis?? It's called just plain being "Respectful to other's"....

Dennis. Why do you have an auto. whats wrong, clutch pedal too much for you in traffic?

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88 Yellow FORMULA
SSFiero@Aol.com

ROTFLMAO...

That would make a great club motto!!!

It's unfortunate how some forum members wish to turn this debate into a personal matter. Your scurilous reply seems to imply that you believe we should be talking about people and not Fieros and related technical issues.
Pardon me, but where did I ever say that that I know everything? Did I ever say that my turbo was everyones solution? If you don't like my project and think that it's garbage, that's perfectly fine with me. Also please point to the post where I personally have flamed anyone.
I hope that we are here to particpate in the open exchange of ideas and opinions about Fieros and technical issues, not people. My opinion is that power steering on a Fiero is un-necessary and admitedly I do joke about it.
When someone has trouble with this opinion (or with my humor) and starts flaming away isn't that the illustration of who is really showing intolerance? Think about it.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

There are things people do to their cars that I think are silly and unnecessary too. But when I do think that, I don't say things like

"There are options on a car that cater to the sick the elderly and the weak. If you are a midget, severely crippled or Richard Simmons, power steering would be very nice to have. "

Nobody has any doubt as to what you mean when you say something like this Dennis. It's a personal slam against anyone that would like to put power steering on their car. You know it and we know it.

As Brian pointed out, and he said it in his first post, he didn't want this to end up in a debate over the merits of whether power steering was good/bad, but wanted to share technical information about the subject to other interested members. Now I know Brian can't control the flow of posts, and threads get hijacked all the time, but why do you feel the need to do it every time the subject of power steering comes up? Why do you even care?

But you can't seem to do that on this subject and that puzzles me because in most of your posts in the tech section, you're helpful and informative and knowledgeable.

When there are topics about putting a rear scoop on the decklid, or other items that don't interest me or disagree with, I either skip them entirely or don't post to them, unless there is what I believe to be wrong technical information in them. It's not my interest so it's not my business. Why, when you're not interested in the power steering conversions, do you feel the need to give those that are that unnecessary jab?

You don't like the idea of power steering in a Fiero. Fine. Now, for those of us that do, let us discuss HOW to do it without the slams and name calling, please.

John Stricker

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

Unfortunately, the Finale doesn't have it. But my next N* powered project will.

Thanks for asking though. Now that I've answered your question, care to answer any of mine? I thought not.

John Stricker

Dennis..

My reply about you was about another smart-a$$ remark from you.... He had asked you to keep the 'chatting-smartass remark's in 'CHAT'... Did you?? NO!!

I think that you turbo project was a 'break-through' for the Fiero V-6 .... You did a GREAT job on it also... I never said that it was a Solution for everyone... Sorry if you took it like that...

Yes, We are here to exchange idea's, ALSO sometime's people make comment's that they should keep to thier selve's and it turn's out like this.. sorry
Also, When did you ever say here that you were 'joking' about it?? I can't find it on my monitor, it must be broke .... sorry!!

Dennis....

Yes, I have thought about it. Did I make the the comment...
quoted:
"There are options on a car that cater to the sick the elderly and the weak. If you are a midget, severely crippled or Richard Simmons, power steering would be very nice to have."

I think that this should stop now...

If you don't like it.... OR if you are jokiing like you claim... Then post a " "

I think that someone else should also think...

ps... OH, I'm done!!

maybe

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SmoothFieroGT@Yahoo.com
Have you RATED me today??

If I remember correctly we only need 50 negative votes to have this KnowItAll troll out of here and for good.

How about it folks. I know my vote is in.
Let's see if we can get that RED bar going for him huh?!

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Winston Ojeda
88 Fiero Formula LT1
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
http://www.FieroLT1.com
Home of the Fiero LT1

[This message has been edited by FieroLT1 (edited 12-16-2002).]

I don't think that in this case Dennis worked and played well with others, but if we start giving negatives to people because they got a little snippy about their pet peeves then this would be a small forum indeed. I don't think that's what Cliff had in mind.

I'm pretty quick to hand out the + ratings, and Dennis even has one from me for other posts.

That's why I phrased my posts in this thread as a question. Why does it bother him so much? I'd really like to know, but I'm not going to give him a - just because it does.

I save the - ratings for the dude16 caliber of post, and Dennis has a long way to go to get there. He's a contributor and, most of the time, a giver of knowledge here.

That doesn't deserve a - .

John Stricker

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 12-16-2002).]

The problem is that sometimes the threads take turns we can't predict . . in this case it has gone from facts and details about power steering to the philosophies both for and against wanting power steering in the first place to tolerance of personally offensive comments to, now, the conceptual basis for the forum's very existence. Hmmm. Wouldn't the psychologists love this one!?!

So I re-state my plea from the end of last week: PLEASE let's return this thread to a discussion of the Zimmer/Quicksilver/Merkur power steering and its possibilities. If you'd like to discuss whether or not power steering users are inherently weaker than other Fiero drivers, internet etiquette as a whole, or anything else for that matter, let's hop over to Chat or O/T where those conversations belong!

Thanks,
Brian

I plan on either a N* or 3800SC (N* is more my style, but I think the 3800 will be easier for now) swap in the semi-near future, so I'd need just the rack and other misc parts that go along with it.

Rodney's products are always fairly priced. I'm sure those of us that really want it could afford it. I mean, hell, people pay $400 for a set of freaking rocker panels. I think I could handle $400-$600 for some sweet-ass power steering.

Get to it Rodney!

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Nobody likes a loser, be a cheater.
^{RAPE ME!! Er, wait, no.. That's not quite right.. RATE ME!}

~Parts needed to make the swap happen
~Car and car model and years to find such parts
~Process of modification of tie rod ends...etc

Gimme more INFO! I'm starving for it!

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Steven Rossi
2M4 Cadero Converted to Aero Notch Back
Visit my website at http://members.rogers.com/jrossi
E-mail me with any questions at steven.rossi@rogers.com
Please rate me if you appreciate my contribution to the Forum

Most of the interest seems to come from people who want to know how to do it, not people who want to know where to buy it. I wouldn't spend $1250 to add power steering.

Exactly...this would be one of those projects i'd do myself...i'm not very interested in kits. I'd just want to know how to do it...which option of parts would I be able to chose from and what 'snags' have the people that have done it come into.

I'd just like to know as much info as possible!

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Steven Rossi
2M4 Cadero Converted to Aero Notch Back
Visit my website at http://members.rogers.com/jrossi
E-mail me with any questions at steven.rossi@rogers.com
Please rate me if you appreciate my contribution to the Forum

True. I'd much rather do it myself, but if I pre-modified rack were available and reasonably priced, I'd consider it.

bwayne -- I like your approach. I am planing on a engine swap in the future and it will come from a car that already has power steering so the pump will already be attached. So, breaking it up into two separate segments seems logical.

I'm also a real do-it-yourselfer so I'm more interested in obtaining information then the actual parts. I pretty confident that I can modify the rack and re-thread the shaft ends. I equally confident that I can shorten the intermediant shaft. Where I may need help is aquiring the bolted collets and, maybe, the brackets needed to properly mount the rack.

In short, I'd be more apt to buy a kit that contains the collets, brackets and detailed instructions on the modifications needed to fit the rack. Then, I can either do the modifications myself or have one of the local metal fabricaters take care of it for me. For a rack kit like this, I would think that it would be worth somewhere between $100$200.

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Roy :D
Blue 87 GT w/ 4th generation Firebird interior.
Suncoast Fieros

Perfect.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 12-18-2002).]

Starting point: Merkur Xr4ti PS rack, rebuilt price $230-$245.

Tie rod ends: Standard Fiero, using standard threaded adjustment sleeves

We know that the engineering of this part will work, because it's been done before. So the question is, "What has to be done to make this work?"

Simple answer: There are two problems we have to solve--first, connecting the steering shaft. Second, mounting the rack in the car.

I'll write up each of those in separate posts.

That's the ticket! I'm looking for to some details.

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Roy :D
Blue 87 GT w/ 4th generation Firebird interior.
Suncoast Fieros

Thanks to Randolph for pictures posted previously and re-posted here. This first picture is both the stock Fiero and a stock Merkur rack. Following are two closeups, one of the Fiero pinion shaft and the second of the Merkur pinion shaft. Note the length of the shaft and the shape, although it is difficult to see in the picture.

The next post will have details of the mods to this part of the Merkur rack.

(And thanks for a 3rd time to Howard Sacks)

The modification to the intermediate shaft is simply to section and re-weld it. Unfortunately, I don't have this part here, so I cannot tell you exactly how much to remove nor give you a picture of it. It should be about 2" shorter, but I'd get the rack mounted first and check to be sure of the exact length that is needed. When I get a shaft made, I will update the post to include this detail.

Now a bit of philosophy:

This is not the only way to put power steering in your Fiero. But it is a proven way to do it and it has several advantages. Although expensive, the parts you need are available and there are cars which have it that are available to inspect in several parts of the country.

More importantly, the design itself is safe. The original concept was not designed as a one-off. Instead, it was engineered to be mass-produced by a company who sold high-line conversions. Because of this, it is safe, functional and repairable. The geometry is correct and the mounting is secure. That is not to say that other methods of accomplishing this goal would not meet these standards, but the fact remains that there were hundreds of examples of this implementation.

Hope these were the details y'all were looking for.

Brian

Roy

I second that!

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Bob Williams
Multi-colored '87 Mutt, a work in progress! (Got my 3800SC, installation in progress!!!)