When I first started doing V-8 kits for Fieros, I decided on 3 different levels of kits that I would sell (Economy, Deluxe and Master-Build). I've always been a Hot Rodder and all of my friends were Hot Rodders. Among other admirable qualities, a Hot Rodder knows how to break a project down into it's base elements and then decide how best to pull off the project within budget. IMHO, half the fun of a major project is to make it all come together within budget and at an acceptable quality level. A "thinking man" or good "Hot Rodder" will analyze a project and decide which elements of that project he can design, fabricate or purchase and which elements he should let others supply. At the time I made the kit level decisions, IE. Economy, Deluxe and Master-Build. The Economy Kit was targeted at people like myself who didn't mind chasing down his own parts and didn't mind taking calculated risks using used parts to save large amounts of money on the total project. The Deluxe Kit was for people who wanted to pick and choose items from the option list and still wanted to shop around for the nickel/dime stuff. The Master-Build Kit was for the Rodder who had the money together to do a top notch job and didn't want to chase down any of his needed parts. He just wanted to have the fun of putting it together or he had hired a garage to put it together for him and he didn't want to pay someone at the garage $50/hr. To chase down parts. In the other thread, https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/011699.html you've heard from several of my customers who've told you that our stated goal of a $4K SBC V-8 swap was not hard to do at all. It just takes a Hot Rodder who is able to do his own work and who can shop around for parts for his project.
The biggest single cost variable in a SBC swap is the cost of the engine a person chooses to use. You can use a super hi performance custom built, mega horsepower $ 15,000 engine or you can use a $500 engine your buddy pulled out of an old Camaro. The choice is yours.
When we do a V-8 swap for a customer, we require that he use our Master-Build Conversion Kit because it includes everything it should take to do a top "No Excuses" job with whatever engine he chooses to use.
IMHO, a person who is going to build a V-8 swap that is done properly and completely will end up using all (or nearly all) of the items in our Master-Build Kit. HOWEVER, he doesn't need to buy all the parts new and he doesn't need to buy them all at once.
As you look around the Internet, you can see others who say you can install other V-8 engines and V-6 engines for $3000, $4000 and $5000 and more. Most of those swaps have you installing used engines. Most of our SBC swaps have been with new Chevy Crate engines and many people price compare our V-8 swaps with new engines to their swaps with used engines.
I'm here to show you that if you compare apples to apples a good quality SBC swap can be done for the same price or even less.
Ok, let's get down to it.
In addition to a complete SBC Chevy engine, this is a complete parts list of what it will take to properly install the engine into a Stick Shift Fiero. I hope this comes out properly formatted, because I'm listing normal retail prices for each of the individual items. Our Goal will be to go to swap meets, garage sales and auctions and try to buy the correct items at prices that are much lower than retail. Prices and parts lists for Automatic cars is real similar. If you add up the following prices, you will see that it adds up to about $3150. If we have a budget of $4K, that only leaves $850 for the engine. Many people will tell you that you can pick up a good used engine for $850 & they are right, you can. But, for every $ we save on the V-8 kit parts we can spend more towards a better engine. When you consider that some NEW SBC crate engines are priced at less than many used V-6 engines, Maybe we can save enough to buy a NEW engine.
So, let's see how this goes.
EXCLUSIVE V-8 SWAP PARTS (CUSTOM MADE FOR THIS TYPE OF SWAP)
CA-02AL Engine/transmission Adapter Plate CA-01 Front Engine Mount CA-01AC A/C Mount CA-03AL Alternator Mount Torque Strut Rod CA-10 Starter Mounting Block Harmonic Balancer Pulley 501 Custom Flywheel Rubber Gasket Material Printed Instructions and Parts List Video Instruction Tape TOTAL for the Economy V-8 Swap kit 950.00 Clutch 350.00 4 Core Radiator 350.00
OTHER "OVER THE COUNTER" PARTS NEEDED. 1122 Transdapt Remote Oil Filter Kit 70.00 23770 Morosso Remote Oil Filter Adapter 30.00 PWM9000 Starter 189.00 CSI-901-R Electric Water Pump 279.00 CSI-908 Hose Fitting 24.00 EDE8030 Throttle Cable Mount (carb. Only) 34.00 MRG912 SBC Flywheel Bolts 8.00 CR55 Fuel Pressure Regulator 29.00 Fan Belt 41515 w/AC (38515 w/o AC) 9.00 PH8A Oil Filter 4.00 Fuel Pump B/O Plate 7.00
HARDWARE PLUMBING PARTS NEEDED 1/4"x1" NPT Nipple (2 req.) 1/4"elbo 45* 1/4"to 3/8 coupling 1/4" NPT street elbo 3/8 to ½ coupling 3/8" x 2" Nipple ½ NPT Pipe plug ½ Street Elbo Deg. Fittings ½ Npt Male X ½ Male Flare (2 Req.) Total Plumbing items 24.00
from the build kit list: if i went with the car i'm wanting to put one in, it dosen't have a/c. would i save that cost or just have to get it as part of the kit? or is it too small a cost to matter?
from the exhaust list: no muffler(s)? dose that mean you have to go with resonated tips or will it matter?
and a general question. how far can you get into the project if you haven't decided on fuel injection or carburation? do you need to know right off or if it's a fairly long term project can you work up to a point then decide? what might that point be?
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10:47 AM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Yeah, you can omit the A/C bracket and deduct $15 from the kit cost.
We use Mufflers OR Cats. Not room enough for both Mufflers & Cats, the resonator tips do help a lot to keep noise down and we use them on with both Muffler OR Cat exhaust systems. Note that Cats are usually much more expensive than mufflers, so if you can get by w/o cats, you can save quite a bit.
I myself have not decided between Carb or Fuel Injection (that really depends on what engine I find for this project). You do need to get an engine before you can assemble the car but making the decission on intake system is way down the road yet. I won't make that decision until I determine how much money I have left in my $4K budget.
I like these questions, they will make this project much more interesting than I thought.
Archie
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11:06 AM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5541 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
Are you using the prices above as your budget. Im sure you know you can find some of that stuff cheaper at swap meets and suck. also i can find a lot of the little things at work or home laying around in the garage. that will bring the cost down a little for me, but not for everyone. when do you plan on starting the assembly. will you find the parts then begin to assemble? or begin taking out the old engine while you find parts? If you dont mind spectators, Im a good JAFO*. =Þ i can bring beer but whats up with the "full bodied" stuff. does that mean coors has a new cabernet or soemthing. lets get this started, all i need is motivation to get started now.
The prices above for the most part are retail prices for new items. I'm figuring on shoping around to save many $$$ on the same parts used. For example, at the swap meet last weekend, I found a used starter ($189 retail) for $35. I've got my fingers crossed that it works, if it does I saved a bunch, if it doesn't I didn't risk much.
I'm kind of figuring on gathering most of the major parts before beginning the assembly. I can't start on building the car for the next 2 weeks or so, (I have a couple of shows and cruises to attend) so I have time to shop for the parts. Sometime this next week we will start dis-assembling the donor car. I have secided on the doner car (price of car not included in budget) it's an '84 4 speed Indy.
I already have a couple of engines I've bought resently that could fit in the budget but I'm keeping my eyes open for others.
"Full-Bodied Beer" means any beer that doesn't say "Lite" on the label. We prefer MGD, we will make fun of any other beer, but we'll drink it.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 07-03-2001).]
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01:06 PM
Leadfoot Member
Posts: 828 From: Schaumburg, IL, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Archie, You should save the Indy for a new swap. How about an 86 SE? Go with the carb and build an air cleaner housing to attach to the scoop. I happen to know of a car to use. I'll gladly let you donate the V-8 for it.
I live kinda far from you guys but if i ever go there i will bring plenty of beer for all. I work at a grocery store and i get special discount. Not stealing. And by the way there is a huge swapmeat by me every fri and sat so ill head down there and see whats up. If i can ill give you guys a price list and i will pick up stuff and deliever it. I wont charge extra at all. What i buy it for will be what you buy it for except shipping ofcourse. The way i look at it is were all here to help eachother out so who cares about making a profit. -J
------------------ 86' Black Fiero GT
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10:45 PM
Jul 4th, 2001
gtcash Member
Posts: 74 From: Jupiter, FL, USA Registered: Apr 2001
Ya know, I know of a place that I can get 350 rebuild kits for $200. Granted its a very budget minded kit, its still all new parts. They include Cam, Lifters, Timing set, Pistons, Piston Rings, Rod/Main/Cam bearings, oil pump, frost plugs, and Gasket set. Oversizes are still the same cost. This is for 1969-1985 engines. Email me if your interested.... sean@kdsi.net
I know Archie is going to post follow ups to what he paid for his v8 parts, but I will take a second to post mine.
CSI Electric waterpump NEW at 235.00
Centerforce Dual friction clutch/pressureplate(not Archie's)NEW with T.O. bearing at 280.00
Custom built 4-core Radiator 250.00
Oil Filter relocation kit NEW 35.00
Permacool Oil filter adapter(Exact copy of Morosos) 14.00
Right here I have already saved $265.00-$315.00(315.00 if you have to buy a T.O. Bearing with Archie's clutch) "hotrodding around" for these NEW parts elsewhere. These are just some of the parts I found online or from speedparts mags.
Later I will mention what I paid for my professional(Not my Buddy)engine rebuild. And the used/new speedparts for my motor.
Jim
87 GT 87 GT T-TOP V8
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03:32 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5541 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
I got it off of RaceSearch.com. I bought it last summer just over a year ago. It was listed at $260.00. I had a 10% off coupon and free shipping was offered for the fourth of July.
I just checked their site. Looks like the price went up, listed at $263.88. Wait a bit and get on their mailing list. They should send you a coupon.
Jim
87 GT 87 Gt T-TOP V8
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04:56 PM
Jul 28th, 2001
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5541 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
Finally I am making some time to post about our progress on our $4K V-8 swap.
As you know, several of my customers have already told you that a $4K V-8 swap is easily done. At that time I thought about lowering the target price to $3K. However I decided to stay with the $4K budget and let the extra money buy us better quality.
Before we are done with this swap I will post all the costs and totals, but for now we'll just cover the high dollar items. BTW, the original parts that come off of our donor car and aren't reused on the V-8 swap are being given "0" value. If you sell your unused donor car parts consider yourself ahead of the game.
The biggest variable in the cost of any engine swap is the cost of the engine. As you will recall most of the people that are quoting costs for the smaller V-6 swaps (3.1, 3.4 & 3.8) are quoting based on using used engines. I've always quoted using new SBC Engines. One of the goals of this thread was to do an apples to apples comparison. They use a used engine; we'll use a used engine.
Now I need to apologize for something here. My original intent was to bring you along on the day to day assembly of this car. As it turns out we already have several days' worth of work done on the car. While I have been taking pics. of everything we've done, I just haven't got around to posting up here about it. Since last report, we've done quite a bit of work; we started on 7-17-01 and have worked on it for all or part of 7 days. You see we have several other projects going on, so we've been jumping on & off of this job, as we need to.
So let's get started.
Day one.. 7-17-01 The engine. I probably spent a little more on the engine than I intended to but I think I got a lot more engine for my money. I decided to use an engine that I bought several months ago on EBay. It is a 1970's 0010 4-bolt block. Originally a guy on the South Side of Chicago built it for his '72 Vette. The guy seemed pretty honest and I had gone to look at it before I bid on it. It had been built with a set of ported ZZ-3 heads and he told me it had 13-1 compression. I hope he was exaggerating because that is too much comp. for the street use I plan to use it for. I drove the '72 Vette that the engine came out of and it seemed to run good. I paid $2250 for the engine including a TPI system (& harness) it had on it. I am more worried that he has a high CR in the engine than worried about the quality of the build, because he had a couple of Big Block 600+C.I. Merlin engines in the garage that he had built for drag cars. I sold the ECM, Wire harness & TPI for $750 because we are going to make this a carburated engine. So my net cost for the engine is $1500. I know, by the time I put a carb, intake & ignition on this engine I could almost bought a new Chevy crate engine. But As I said we want to compare a used engine to a used engine.
Here are a couple of pics of the engine; we will cover day 2 of the build tomorrow.
Archie
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11:11 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5541 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
Hi Archie, I am very interested in your $4k swap project and think that a lot of other people probably are too. When you get done, if you would like, I can take all of the information you submit and compile it into a cool webpage for you, I bet it would get me a lot of hits and you a lot of traffic. Anyways, I'll be watching closely and hopefully as soon as I'm out of college (2-3 years ) I'll be coming to you for a kit. Later, Mike S
One of they ways of recouping some of your money would be to sell the existing motor.
What do you do with all of the Dukes you pull? I am in the market for a low mileage 86 or older Duke in good working order. I am not interested in rebuilding or freshening up one just plug-n-pray.
[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 08-13-2001).]
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07:41 PM
Aug 14th, 2001
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Our donor car happens to be a 1984 4 speed Indy Pace Car.
It's been several years since I've removed a good 4 cylinder engine. My definition of "Good" is an engine that could be a plug & play for someone elses' Fiero.
Sounds sweet!! Now can you do a v8 swap for under $1000? I checked today and can pick up a long block with a years warranty for $1100 to my door. Don't know will have to look at the price of a rebuild. My next Fiero will be a V8
I sent you several emails asking questions about your V8 kits... you answered a few and then never another peep. I'll be doing a V8 swap within a year and heard good things about your kits, but am worried about the lack of follow-up... What's up?
Cheers, Scott
------------------ Scott Rigdon 1988 Fiero GT, Black 5 speed 38,000 Original Miles! Cherry!
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10:53 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
I sent you several emails asking questions about your V8 kits... you answered a few and then never another peep. I'll be doing a V8 swap within a year and heard good things about your kits, but am worried about the lack of follow-up... What's up?
Cheers, Scott
I get about 250 EMails a day, sometimes I don't get them all answered. Right now there are about 340 unanswered EMails waiting for me.
I'll see if I can find yours.
Archie
Yep, u got mail
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 08-15-2001).]
Questions????? Why not use Archies water pump? What would be a good cheap muffler to use in place of the cats? Coolant pipes What kind of coolant pipes? What is the HHF 3/4 and HFF 5/8? Are the bolts and nuts coarse thread or fine thread? Also what grade should I use?
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12:43 AM
SLYGUY Member
Posts: 581 From: San Bernardino, CA USA Registered: Sep 2001
A complete engine swap like this is smog legal in Cali right? LOL Great idea though. What kind of hp are we talking about with modest tweaks to that V8?
350-450 would be killer. Totally dominate anything out there. Hell, even give a motorcycle a run. Never forget the responses I got from my brother the night I took him up through some fast twisties in my local mountains here. I can still hear his head thunk on the window. "I never been in a car that can handle like this...**** man!" My GT is stock too with measly 205-60R-15s.
Keep up the good work Archie. Your set up is first rate...
Sly
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12:53 AM
Sep 24th, 2001
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
