I tried a search and didn't find any info on designing, constructing, materials and so forth for a roll cage for a Fiero. I don't know anything about them so here I am looking for anyone's input.

A friend of mine suggested building one out of PCV pipe as a model and then take that to a welder or metal shop and that makes sense as I will then know what it's going to do to the interior of the car and how much space I'll lose.

Any input? If you've ever been in a head-on you know you need one.

What particularly concerns me is protecting my feet and legs and also from an impact on the driver's door.

I'm not too concerned about actually rolling over.

I suggest you go to the fiero racing list on yahoo groups, and ask some of the people on there. Maybe Doug Chase has some pics of the one in his rally car that he may be able to post on here, so ask him as well. As for materials, if you read the rules for SCCA rally, or CARS rally, they have pretty good guidelines on what materials, thicknesses, etc should be used. If you follow those, you should get a strong and reliable cage.

Okay, thanks..I'll try that. I'd still like some more input from you all.

there was a guy on this board that had one with a roll cage. he had an 85GT, but i don't remember his screenname... i guess try searching.

Keep in mind that roll cages often have to be certified. Check the requirements for the tracks and assosiations you will be racing with. They won't let you just slap something together and call it a roll cage.

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RIP Crew of Columbia. 01-Feb-03

quote Originally posted by pHoOl: there was a guy on this board that had one with a roll cage. he had an 85GT, but i don't remember his screenname... i guess try searching.

well if I remember right, his screen name was 85 GT? I do remember his name was Randy.

btw, I believe Standard has a cage, and Tina just bought one.

Here is a Jegster roll cage kit:
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=4096&prmenbr=361

Scroll down to find the Fiero kits.
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www.fieroexcitement.com
Rate me if I've been helpful!

[This message has been edited by RBeaubien (edited 03-31-2003).]

quote Originally posted by JD86GT350: btw, I believe Standard has a cage.

I have a roll bar, not a full cage. It's not SCCA legal, unfortunatly. To be SCCA legal you need a diagnol bar that connects the left and right sides, and in a fiero that means moving the ECM and center console. Although I have no doubt that mine would help out if I ever rolled it.

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1988 Quad 4 Coupe 5 speed click for more pics
1986 GT 5 speed
AOL: LastMinuteBastrd AIM: SavedbyJebus

I'm not interested in certifying it. I just want to stay alive. I saw some pics of that 85. Not too specific. I won't be racing it. Just want the cage for safety.

[This message has been edited by Roger That (edited 03-31-2003).]

Or you could just buy my racecar that I have for sale. It's a basic 86 coupe chassis with a full custom cage made by a professional builder. Also has the elcetrical cutoff and removeable steering wheel installed. The interior is gutted except for the dash. Just an Idea. Located in Allentown Pa.

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The Stickman

http://members.tripod.com/~TheStickman/SnTsFieros.html

Even if you aren't racing it. understanding what the associations require will help you build a safe system.

Keep in mind... They will only help so much. Probably not as much as your thinking they will. Unless you are going to do away with doors that open, you are going to have big holes you can't cage.

Example... In one photo recently posted on the fourm, a Fiero was shown after a headon hit. A roll cage likely would not have saved the passengers side occupant if there had been one.

Fiero's B pilar and roof is already pretty tough. Far stronger than many cars out there. There are pictures of Fiero after a roll. The front of the roof it nocked down a bit but the rest is pretty much intact.

Varous other images around here show the amount of damage a Fiero can take without penetrating the passenger compartment.

Nothing is bullet proof but Fiero has a better start than allot of people think.

The Fiero is probably as safe if not considerably safer than any other car in its weight class. Looking at the results of one head-on and concluding that the Fiero is unsafe and needs to be armoured brings only one response. Forget about cars altogether, get a Ford Expedition or a Hummer H2. That way you will be bigger than most of the normal traffic and will have a better chance of surviving an impact with another car. Wait there are still transport trucks out there, maybe you can get an armoured personel carrier, after the war there may be some surplus vehicles!!

I am not joking about the seriousness of an accident, what I am trying to point out is that a roll cage will have little effectiveness in a frontal crash unless it is a full racing trangulated system which means doors will no longer open and you will not have to worry about the passenger being injured because the space they would have occupied is now filled with structural cross bracing. By the way, since this will negate the crumple zones built into the factory design, the impact will be transferred more to the driver, so you will need a full racing harness cinched down tight since the impact will be much more violent(at the same speed).

Most of us have other cars that are less safe than the Fiero, look at the Fiero that got wedged under the 18 wheeler, look at the crash results for Fieros. It is not an unsafe car. And no car, regardless of how much equipment you add, will be completely safe as long as there are bad drivers and poorly maintained roads and cars.

Ira

Just fixing my punctuation

[This message has been edited by Monza76 (edited 04-05-2003).]

theogre;

That recent post about the head-on was mine.

You say it's unlikely a roll-cage would have protected the passenger.

If that's true, then I guess I can forget about the roll-cage altogether. But that's a HUGE decision for me. I feel very unsafe in my Fiero.

It is far more likely that if I should ever be in a head-on again the impact would most likely be on the driver's side this time.

I am at the point where the weather is getting good and since I don't have garage that I have to prioritize what I need to do to my ride.

The roll-cage was number 1.

Your post troubles me in that I will be no safer with a roll-cage vs. no roll cage. And while it's possible to roll a Fiero, I believe it's far more likely to be in a head-on than a rollover.

There are huge drawbacks to having a cage. I do not want to add 500lbs of pipe and have to get into my rig 'Dukes of Hazard' style.

I don't do a lot of fast and furious driving. Most of the roads I travel are two-lane (meaning one lane going one way and the other going opposite).

My driving habits have changed since that accident. Man, whenever I see a car waiting to enter the road like from a gas station or whatever, if that car is even creeping forward sends chills down my spine.

Many times cars approach intersections and if you've got the green light you should feel good to go but I will never trust another vehicle for the rest of my life.

Maybe you could give me a reason or an example or possibly illustrate why you feel a roll-cage would not be beneficial.

Thanks

The reason a roll cage alone doesn't help in a frontal crash so much in a fiero is because in most frontal crashes, the driver/passanger compartment stays mostly intact. The biggest problem is people not wearing seatbelts, not wearing them correctly, or them simply being ineffective due to speed. The driver ends up hitting the steering column, or the windshield. A roll cage could improve the strength of your car in side impacts, but only if it has door bars which are usually mounted fairly high that you have to step over to get in/out.

I think your best bet if you want to feel safe in the fiero against collisions would be a good 4 or 5 point harness attached to some secure mounting points on the firewall, and a well attached certified racing seat to keep you from bouncing around side to side.

Also, I don't know if the fiero steering column is very collapsable, but if it isn't, then making it to be that way would also help.

I'll work backward here....

Saginaw Steering Columns (And most others)are telescopic for a wreck. (This is a federal requirement I think.) Both the main shaft and shell can move. These columns are usually installated with two universal joints that will deflect some to most of the movement of an impact on the rack unit so that it can't come straight up the shaft. (It is very rare to have a Saginaw column mounted straight on with the rack/box) The mounting bracket is equiped with slotted attachment to allow the upper section to colapse if the driver hits it.

Seatbelts can do allot. I DO NOT recomend race type harnesses for street use. The reasons are a bit technical but they are not made for such use. Even in racing there are known issues with them. These harnesses must be installed very precisely. Factory anchors may not be good enough. If you want more detail, locate the materials concerning the death of Dale Ernhart at 2001 Daytona NASCAR opener. Most of that stuff is on the web someplace.

Roger T, I honestly don't think a roll cage will do what you are hoping it will. Roll cages are a bit hard to explain. To do anything close to what you want, you'd need a full cage with door bars. Without such bars you have a "simple" cube shape. Cubes are enherantly weak shapes.

Your post says allot. You've obviously had allot to deal with since your wreck. I'd really hate to see you put your faith into a cage that won't do what you need. A full cage is going to add at least a couple hundred pounds of mass.

More mass, especially ridged mass isn't always a good thing in a wreck. You actually want the car to crunch up around you. The crunching eats a huge amount of energy. Imagine dropping an egg 6 feet to contrete and to foam. The foam crushes and eats the energy of the egg hitting it. The egg is much more likely to survive as a result. Same for you.

I don't think even a full cage would have helped that mashed white car. Even a NASCAR rated cage would have a hard time with that. The first problem is that the impact was head on into a very small cross section of the car. The second is that it was head on.

Lets say the wrecked Fiero was doing 35. The other car was doing 45. The impact speed was like hitting a fixed object at around 80. Worse, instead of driving into a wall, it was more like hitting a big iron pole. The smaller the impact area, the harder it will be for any vehicle to absorb.

To prevent that impact from intruding on the cabin, you would have to rebuild the entire Fiero frame not just add a cage. Even then I'm not sure you could have saved that side of the car. There are many small to midsize cars on the road that would have faired even worse in the same wreck.

I think you'd be better served by taking a very good driving school deffensive driving course. A good DD course will help you recognize a bad situation faster and teach you how to deal with it to either avoid it or at least minimize it.

In all honesty you are safer in the Fiero than many other cars on the road. I can't find my copy of the crash test data for Fiero. As I remember it did better than most things tested except for Volvo and a couple other cars.

quote Originally posted by Monza76: The Fiero is probably as safe if not considerably safer than any other car in its weight class. Looking at the results of one head-on and concluding that the Fiero is unsafe and needs to be armoured brings only one response. Forget about cars altogether, get a Ford Expedition or a Hummer H2. That way you will be bigger than most of the normal traffic and will have a better chance of surviving an impact with another car. Wait there are still transport trucks out there, maybe you can get an armoured personel carrier, after the war there may be some surplus vehicles!! [This message has been edited by Monza76 (edited 04-05-2003).]

Yea...The federal government should inapt a national safety act: making it mandated that all US drivers will have
to drive Fieros only! Really, this would solve our problems, I would no longer have to worry about that 16 year old
girl next door, who's dad just got her a FULL SIZE FORD BRONCO with a 8 inch lift and size 32 tires!

That just ought to be illegal....she will probably run me over one day on her way to school.....

ohh.....did I mention I was talking to her the other day...
I asked her why she doesn't were her glasses when she drives?

She said because they make her look stupid and blind!...
I'm so scared......

My cage has a "Petty" bar and NASCAR style door bars. You can still use the doors with these bars I don't have any window glass or door panel anymore but the door does open an close. But there ain't nothin gettin through those bars. And yes you have to climb over them. It's easiest to put a leg in and then sit on the bars and slide yourself in

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The Stickman

http://members.tripod.com/~TheStickman/SnTsFieros.html

theogre:

I will strongly consider what you have said.

I did not consider the steering column.

What has got me stumped is that damn Taurus had very little impact damage.

While I can agree to the impact absorbing features the Fiero has (by crumpling up like a wet carboard box) I can't get over how that car pretty much drove through my car.

I'd say the impact was almost equal (from an 'angle' point of view).. I think I was going less than 35 at the time of impact, though.. maybe 10-20mph due to the length of the skid marks. They are faint but you can see them. There were no skid marks on their behalf.

So.

This is disheartening.

I must now meditate with my bottle of Jim Beam as to decide whether to do this or not.

But surely... a roll cage must have some benefit vs. not having one?

Even if the odds of survival (with or without my legs or the removal of the steering coumn from my chest) would increase by 5%, wouldn't that be worth the $800 or so for the cage? Surely the savings in hospital bills alone would make it feasable.

I have to re-think my Fiero relationship.

So Fiero's don't have airbags. Well, mine used to have one. But I divorced her.

So then, if we hit on the driver's side,, you say even if I had a roll-cage installed they would get the better of me and still be driveable?

Man, that's a big chunk to swallow.

Maybe I'll get a Taurus.

I like my legs.

The hospital bills alone would be significantly higher without a cage

Ummm....Maybe I have the wrong idea, but doesn't the Fiero already kind of have a roll cage?
Looking at pics of a Fiero w/ no panels it looks like a cage to me.

Insurance Institute for highway safety gives Fiero xlnt ratings. But I think this is just frontal impact. I think youre always screwed if u get T-boned.
http://www.safecarguide.com/mak/pontiac/idx.htm

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88 4cyl auto Fiero, AC, sunroof
"And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick

quote Originally posted by cccharlie:I think youre always screwed if u get T-boned.

Not really. There's a reason the Fiero doors weigh about 80lbs each.. two huuuuge steel impact beams, one at shoulder level and one lower down.

Roger,

quote I have to re-think my Fiero relationship.

quote Maybe I'll get a Taurus.

If you feel unsafe driving a Fiero, then you know what you have to do. Despite being a safe car for its time and weight class, its 15 year old technology. A bigger car is going to give you more of a crumple zone. Airbags are a huge development that saves lives. I agree with the majority that a roll cage is not going to give you the benefits you are looking for.

What can you do to keep a Fiero? Take the money from the roll cage and put it into a complete rebuild of the brake system, quality tires and a defensive driving course.

At the end of the day, **** happens. No matter if you are in a mini, a fiero, or a hummer, sometimes, **** happens.

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Trevor Hughes

The upper beam isn't actually considered an impact beam but it's a hell of allot more metal than most doors have there.

Roger, there are a number of reasons one car can have more damage than another. It's not something that can be explained in a page or three.

Even if you take two identical cars, they can suffer differant ammounts of damage depending just how they hit and the speed of each.

The tarus hit you in an odd way. It didn't hit very much of the front end of your car. For this reason the poor Fiero was unable to prevent it hitting the A post at nearly full force.

From what I could see in the photo, the tarus took a path along this line on the Fiero.

It clipped just the corner of the front framing before hitting the A post. Near every car on the road will have trouble with that one. It's about the same effect as if she had driven straight into the A post.

A caged Fiero in that same wreck, and many other cars, wouldn't fair any better. It would have still hit the A post with the near full force. The tarus did better in this case more because of wierd luck than because it is any better of a car.

No, I don't think there is any real benifit to anything short of a full race rated cage and other modifications. Even all that the tarus would probably have done very similar damage to your other Fiero.

Why do they roll cage all the cars in racing... Yes it helps tremendously. But also look at how they wreck. The majority of wrecks aren't square on into stuff and/or you are hitting big stuff with a large cross section of the car.

Even with the cages, drivers die. NASCAR... Purpose built cages fully integrated into the vehicle and drivers still die. F1 cars where most of the car is a safety cage/device and drivers still die.

Others.... Don't kid yourselves... Those F'ing SUVs are a menace to thier owners and other drivers. No matter what the other driver is in. (Short of a Semi maybe.) The basic premis many use to justify the safety of them, more mass = safer, is flawed on many levels. Those big tires make them even worse.

Many SUV's are built in the light truck class. (Regardless of what frame they may be on) This class allows the manufacturer to be less fuel efficient, more poluting and less safe. Trucks still do not have to meet most car safety and fuel/emissions requirements. SUVs are directly related to the current fight over CAFE in the U.S. Congres.

Hey ogre, can you please explain to me why putting a race harness into a street car is a bad idea? Or give me a link to an article that would explain it? I was thinking of eventually doing this to my daily driver (occasional autoX car), along with a cage and seat. I know that racing belts do have flaws (especially the old 4 point ones), but so do the regular 3 point belts found in our cars. Surely a 4 pt or 5 pt belt system would be better than that?

And I wasn't thinking of using stock mounting points, but rather reinforced points on the firewall/frame.

And yes, you are right, no matter how well built and safe a car is, sheit happens, and people do still die. It's a game of chance.

Sorry if I sounded a little wierd but I'm over it now.

I'm not sure what your diagram is trying to illustrate. I'm not on a comp to upload a diagram right now (maybe tomorrow) I will try to illustrate the collision verbally.

I was travelling at just about 45mph on a straight stretch of road. There was a medium curve to the left just ahead. Medium meaning no need to slow down while doing the posted speed limit of 45. There was a caution sign that you can see in the pics.

There were some alder trees (or other kind of brush) growing in the crook of the curve. To clarify; not in the road itself but on my left as I approached the curve. This brush obscured my view of the road and oncoming traffic around that curve.

Just as I approached that curve, but not yet in position to slightly turn the steering wheel to the left, I see an oncoming car.

The car is in it's rightful lane.

But as we get in to the slight curve I suddenly realize that the oncoming car is going in a straight line and was crossing the yellow line.

That car would have ended up in the ditch anyway.

I am on top of her in a second. When I hit the brakes the car was headed toward me at just about the center of the road. You don't know if she will suddenly realize the error and try to correct by swerving back to her lane or if you should try to avoid the oncoming mass of death and destruction by swerving into her lane and going around.

Well. that's in my mind anyway. There's no time to study strategies.

She was either on drugs, asleep, or her head in her boyfriend's... nevermind that... that's spec.

She is not coming at me directly head on, but rather like this: Here's the letter Y.

Ignore the top right section of the Y and focus on just the bottom shaft and the top left extension of the Y. Got it? Good. She's on top and I'm under her.

We impacted on both of our passenger-side fender sections on the front bumper.

I think I was probably 50% decelerated at the time of impact or close to it. While faint, you can see at least 20 or more feeet of rubber from my braking. There were no tiremarks from her vehicle whatsoever.

So I think she was doing about 45 and I the same before decelaration.

So that's that.

Okay, so thanks for letting me get this off my shoulders. Now that I have this posted I kinda feel relieved in a way.

This has been on my mind since the accident and while I have shared these pics with my friends I don't get the kind of support like you all have shown here.

I accept that a roll cage will not help with this type of accident in the future. Since that crash I always believed a roll cage would be the best and surest form of protection.

SUV's SUCK.

And I hate their headlight level.

Jeez, look at all the people who had trouble seeing around the mountains of snowbanks piled up at intersections this winter. They don't realize we Fiero owners have to put up with this crap from mountains of SUV's year round.

Okay.

I appreciate all your input.

I'm going to stick with my Fiero and take my chances.

For those that have not seen the pics of little accident that were posted on a different thread I've re-posted them here.

Thanks for your time.

And now, back to the freeway, which is already in progress

[This message has been edited by Roger That (edited 04-09-2003).]

If you intend to take your Fiero to the dragstrip, and run in the 12 or 13 second 1/4 mile ET bracket, you will need only a roll bar not a full cage. This is sufficient unless your Fiero runs in the 10 or 11 second bracket. For this bracket a full roll cage may be required.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

I wanted to weigh in on this thread but I've been busy for the last few days.

First of all, holy crap! That's the worst I've ever see a Fiero after a crash. And you're right, the Taurus has amazingly little damage showing. I'm really sorry about your loss.

I disagree with everybody above and think that a roll cage would have helped in this situation. Even a four point cage would have added more structure to the A-pillar and the door pillar, and that would have absorbed some impact and minimized the deformation of the car.

My roll cage has a door bar that runs from the bottom of the front of the door, to the middle of the main hoop (the hoop behind the seats). This strengthens that area a lot. My cage is also tied into the door pillar, the A-pillar, and the roof. The main hoop is tied into the roof and the main side structure. This obviously isn't practical in a street car with interior. If the cage was tied into the front suspension mounts (mine isn't) the car above would have been even better off.

I agree that crush zones are good, but I'll give you 10:1 that Pontiac didn't design and test for this type of crash,and that the car would have been better off with less crushing. Offset barrier crash testing (basically running a vehicle into half of a wall) is currently believed to be the best approximation of the above head on collision, and is relatively new. I don't know if it's required of automakers or if they're just doing it on their own.

FWIW, I think Ogre's right about why the crash did so much harm to the Fiero. It looks like the Taurus just missed the main fore-aft frame rail. Without hitting this frame rail the door pillar is the first significant structure the Taurus hit. Ahead of that is just some A-arms, sheet metal, plastic, and the right edge of the front bumper.

Anyway, if you want to take a look at the rules my cage is built to, go to http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/03rulebook/index.html to look at the rule book. The roll cage stuff is in Article 5. If you want a cage find a good cage builder in your area and have him do it. People that build cages for rally or road race would be better than somebody who does stock cars, because the rally / roadrace builders are used to cramming cages into cars with interiors.

If you put in a cage, make sure to pad any area your head or limbs may even come near. It would be a shame for the car to survive a terrible accident only to find that you cracked your head open on the roll cage.

I want to know why Ogre thinks racing harnesses aren't good in street cars. I've tested my 5-point harnesses a few times over the years, a couple times pretty good. If they're mounted properly (and they could be with a roll cage), and worn properly (keep it tight and don't loosen the shoulder belts to change radio stations), I feel they will be much safer than a stock 3-point belt.

I have a couple pics of the inside of my car I can send somebody if they want to post them. PIP isn't working for me. I don't have any that show the cage in great detail.

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Doug Chase
'88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (autocrosser)
'88 Fiero GT 5-spd (daily driver)
'85 Fiero GT 5-spd (rally car)
'87 Fiero SE V6 5-spd (too good of a deal to pass up)
Custom roll cage fabrication available
Custom exhaust fabrication available

Doug
Good points about the roll cage, in my earlier response I was more concerned with the lack of crumple zones, however, as several have pointed out since, the Taurus (looks like an Escort to me) basically drove over the front end of the fiero and struck the A pillar first. I have considered a roll cage for my Fiero but, confession time here, only for cosmetic reasons, they look serious.

Ira

Doug, you can send me the pictures of your cage and I can post them for you. I'm quite interested in seeing the layout, since I'd like to get a cage myself one day ($ permitting). I've seen a few cage setups in the past, but most of them took out the passenger seat.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, me email is posthumane@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by Posthumane (edited 04-08-2003).]

I am planning to run a NHRA/SCCA approved cage in my car but my reasons are not really for on-road safety. I am running a cage primarily to develop a rigid chassis, and to provide safety during race-type events. My concern with a person having a full cage in a street car and being involved in serious accident is the trauma to the person,as a result of more of the accident's force being transmitted directly to them. Crumple zones do reduce injury to the driver/passengers by absorbing some of the energy; at the expense of the vehicle. I can't imagine a person securely locking themselves into a 5pt racing harness to run down to the lcoal convenience store for a midnight snack. The car may do pretty well in the accident, but the unbridled driver/passenger may end up going through months of painful surgery and therapy, and have a life long reminder of how strong that caged car was.

You have to be very honest with yourself about whether or not you would really lock yourself down EVERY time! I know I wouldn't, and my car is just a toy for when the mood strikes - otherwise I will be in a more conventional, crushable, 3pt shoulder belt-equipped, car for those quick trips, and everyday driving. I would also consider the HANS device, and as Doug said

quote keep it tight and don't loosen the shoulder belts to change radio stations

perk

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toddshotrods.com

First off... I don't hate race harness...

There are a bunch of reasons not to use race harnesses in street vehicles. OE Three point ones leave allot to be desired for certain but Race Type harness are not free of issues either. If you do use a race harness on track or street, you want to know everything you can about them. There isn't a huge list of isues but those that exist are really important.

A big problem is many racers don't even know about the issues with them until it's too late. When used on the street there are further complications.

For a start they usualy aren't rated to meet DOT requirements. I don't know of any that meet DOT. If you want to know more about that, the entire FMVSS is online. It is linked in my cave.

The non DOT issue creates a serious liability problem if there's a wreck. A passenger in a race harness is really thorny. The passenger, or their surviving family can sue you out of existance if that belt fails. (or they are injured by it. More on that in a bit.) Your insurance can refuse to pay all claims for injury to you and anyone else because of them.

Seatbelts may also fall under the same U.S. Federal laws as illegal brake modifications. This means any shop in the U.S. installing or servicing them for street use can be in deep dodo legally. (Again, linked in my cave.) The installing shop could also be sued by people involved in a wreck with them.

Next, even when installed by people who are suposed to be qualified to do so, like NASCAR car builders, race belts can and do fail. Locate and read the publications regarding the Ernhart wreck for discussions of how and why Simpson and other belts can fail. (I believe it was the left side lap belt of a Simpson harness that broke in the Ernhart wreck.) That isn't the only time a belt has quit but it is the best documented one. (I don't know what's still online. I don't have time to dig it all out again.)

Simpson, and most other, race belts require specific mounting angles. The lap belt is the most picky. If the seat is moved for any reason then these angles must be within specification. That may require multiple anchor points for the lap and anti sub belts.

4 point harnesses have well known issues. Specifically submarining...

5 point harness can only be used properly with seats made for them. Using them with a modified stock seat would likely be a bad idea.

4 point won't work with many stock seats either. If the seat interferes with the upper belts at all it's no good.

All the anchor points have to be properly reinforced. This isn't always easy. It's definitely not for the DIY. It's not just how much metal but what kind is used for the anchor points. Too thin, too soft, or too small and the anchor plate or bolts can tear out. The grade/type of anchor bolts, if any are used, is also critical.

The upper belts have been known to cause split breast bone. What happens is the car stops, your shoulders stop, what's in between trys to keep going. (This is why some systems now have a second latch or strap up higher between those belts.)

Race belts are safer in many ways but only when installed and used correctly EVERY TIME. It is far too easy to get lazy with them.

You don't just get in a car with a race harness and slap it on. Tightness isn't the only factor. All the adjusters need to be checked every time. Again the lap belt is most picky and is also the harder one to check. (Especially in a car pressed for space.)

If the adjusters are pulled a little bit crooked relative the rest of the belt, the whole belt system is weakened considerably. The big problem here is that the crooked adjuster can turn further under load. It can turn almost completely sideways. The adjuster cannot hold properly when that happens. The belt can slip or even fail as a result.

I saw film of tests of the belts last year. (The second test was in slow motion.)

When the adjuster loaded straight, the belt took full rated load and more before it quit.

When the adjuster started out slightly crooked, the belt loaded up then all of a sudden the web slipped to one side, the adjuster turned nearly completely sideways, the belt started to slip and then failed below it's rated load. All this happened really fast.

While I encourage discussion about racing and so forth..let me say that I am not a racer. I would like to see some input about personal safety in everyday driving - sort of urban warfare. Racing involves high speeds and while harnesses and rollcages are an integral part of that sport, I was hoping for more input on just staying alive while driving home from work.

i kind of want a roll cage and five point harness just because it looks really
k-rad
i dont see why a properly installed race harness would set you any worse off than a cheese-ball stock seatbelt.

i dont really wear my belt unless im driving like a maniac anyway.

i would install the five point harness for looks alone, and let it sit at my sides.

Hey, here are Doug Chases' pictures of his roll cage:

I see your points ogre, but honestly I don't think that a race harness is any less safe than a regular street belt. Yes, they can be worn wrong, but so can 3 point belts. As for DOT certification, I haven't seen any racing belts that wouldn't hold up to a head on collision in a street speed impact. I could understand there being liability issues (especially down there in the states), but that's the same with any modification you make to the car.
Hell, I have driven cars with a 2 point lap belt, rag top, solid steering rack, light sheet metal body, etc. Gotta love 1970's safety standards...

At one time, this company built a cage for the Fiero. http://www.kirkracing.com/
I've seen their ads in Grassroots Motorsports.

OMG, and I though what I'd been in was bad. Thank God you're ok. Well, I really don't have advice, but as for something falling ONTOP of your Fiero, a mule fell ontop of the one I was driving and it was determined that the existing strength of the frame was what saved my life. Another few inches and I would have been a goner. Can't say that for many other cars. There are pics under "forum newbie wants to say hi" in the general chat section. Don't blame you for being concerned after what you went through, though.

quote zoomzoom wrote: i dont really wear my belt unless im driving like a maniac anyway.

If you don't wear a seatbelt then you are always driving like a maniac.

Ira

I was not driving like a maniac when I got peckered.

So, do mules just fall from the sky?

How the heck can a mule fall onto your car?

What were the circumstances, Blondie?

I mean, a mule is a somewhat small animal that, at best, it's head is just about as high as the top of your roof. It must have fallen off of something, like a cliff or truck or maybe fell out of an airplane. ?

How fast were you going.

And what happened to the mule.

Jesus, a MULE ,,, LOL

Kirk Racing still makes the cage for the Fiero. However, their cage uses a Petty bar which is required by SCCA, or alternatively, can be ordered without the Petty bar. We have ordered several of their rollbars and cages. Very good workmanship and delivery, all at a reasonalbe price.

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FierOmar