Hey guys, the maniac line was only in response to zoomzoom saying he didn't use a seat belt.

Roger That-That's one bad wreck, as stated by others, as bad as I've seen anywhere.
Your concerns are easily understandable after seeing the pictures. I personally saw a Fiero accident where the rear half of the car was separated from the 'cabin',almost looked as if it was designed to. The driverhad lost control on a rainslick bridge, spun around several times, and the driver's side rear impacted the bridge railing, shearing the engine compartment & drive train neatly from the rest of the car.

But,your comment about the mule. Maybe you are talking about a donkey (burro). Mules often grow as large as horses. I'm 6'4" and have seen them almost as high along their back as I am tall. The young lady who had the mule fall on her car has a thread running in OT-maybe she will answer your query there.
Good luck to you Roger That, let's hope this is a freak accident, as it appears to be, judging from the comments of long time Fiero owners.

Lets say the wrecked Fiero was doing 35. The other car was doing 45. The impact speed was like hitting a fixed object at around 80.

The Ogre-I always believed this to be true myself, but it has been discussed several times in OT and seemingly has been proven false by some of the members much more knowlegable about physics than myself. Perhaps I will link to this thread & one of the whiz kids can explain it-I didn't grasp it the 1st time around. I believe mach10 was one of those who made the assertion to the contrary.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-11-2003).]

MJ... no doubt I over simplified the situ. Yes, Impact velocity is more complicated than that.

It is very hard to explain the physics of a wreck no matter how many you've had to clean up. I'll try to clear it a bit. (When you've cleaned up a bunch of wrecks, you learn to read them even without knowing the physics.)

From what I can see in the posted photos, the other car hit the Fiero more like a saw than a hammer. A saw sreads load over a large area while a hammer is a small area.

The right side of the other car hit along the line I posted above, which is an inherantly weak area. The other car hit almost nothing on the Fiero before slamming the A pillar.

The shape and angle of the impact ment the Fiero took almost all the load into the A post while the other car scraped down a large area on the side.

Dumb Luck appears to have ment the other car went slightly over the Fiero. had the other car went slightly under the Fiero the the Fiero may have had less damage.

Luck is a major factor in all accidents. They thought Dale Ernhart's car was safe... he died anyway. There are many factors involved besides any direct impact to your person. Ernhart's car suffered no cockpit intrusion. He's still dead. For him it was the differance of a few degrees in how the car hit the turn 4 wall at Daytona. When your number is up, it's up... That simple.

As I noted above, it is almost the same effect as if the other car had driven straight into the Fiero A pillar. I don't believe anything less than a full race rated cage might have helped at all. Even that may not have saved a passenger as typical race cages are ment to save the driver. The passenger area is sacrificial space with most cages.

Others....

I never said race harness was less safe than OE. I was pointing out that it isn't as safe as many racers think it is. There are significant issues with the race hardware.

There are also major legal issues involved. These issues come up EVERY time you use parts that don't meet FMVSS. Anyone that thinks these are a joke need to read the stuff linked in my cave. A shop installing illegal parts can be fined for each illegal/missing part. That means every part of both the missing OE seatbelt system AND the installed race harness system. That means 5-6 OE parts pluss 4-5+ race parts. Pluss they will liikely invesigate to see how many other cars this work was done on and nail you for them as well.

If you are ever in a wreck, insurance investigators can have ALL claims denied against a car with illegal or "race" parts. The main job of an insurance investigator is to REDUCE the amount of money paid by their company. They are often VERY good at doing this. The ones that aren't good at this don't have jobs for long.

OE hardware is far from perfect but unless you are going to constantly monitor your race harness it's as bad if not worse than OE.

The retard(s) above that won't wear belts and would install race belts for show... Any input you have to this thread is total . Do us all a favor and keep you mouth shut.

Get your head out of your behind. If you think you are safe... take an old junk car and drive it into a Very Solid object at just 10mph. You'll find out real quick how easy it is to hit the steering column. That or drive it into a ditch... You'll find how easy it is to hit you head on the roof and break your stupid neck.

Roger... I'll say it again... taking a very good defencive driving course will do as much or more for you than car modifications. It will likely qualify you for reduced insurance rates as well. Depending on you carrier, anywhere from 5-20%.

Note to "theorge": I applaud your posts on the subject matter, you are right on the mark!!!

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Click to Listen!

Roger That-thanks for starting this thread, & sharing your unfortunate accident. It's spawned some good discussion & given us all some things to think about & something to learn from, especially considering the comparitavly low speeds involved and the fact that it just seemed to happen right out of the blue so un-expectedly. We all need a reminder once in a while how quickly & easily things can run amok. We appreciate your honest & candid thoughts here.
(And, Ogre-when it comes to my pea brain, there is no such thing as over simplification.)

Thanks for clarifying, MJ. As you might see if you read the story under the O/T section, the particular mule that I hit and his three pals were all about twice the height of a fiero and a little over 2000 lbs. Not exactly what I would qualify as small. Also, you can see the damage under general chat. The thing was big enough to render the car totalled. I am in no way making light of your accident or saying that it doesn't sound funny at first, it does sound funny to say of all things that you had an accident that involved a mule, but I wasn't kidding when I said the first time that another couple of inches and I wouldn't be here. I'm not sure how many psi 2000lbs falling onto your head calculates into, but I'm sure it's enough to hurt.
But, just goes to show the integrity of the existing structure of the car.

[This message has been edited by FieroBlondie (edited 04-12-2003).]

Sorry Ogre, I misunderstood your post as saying that installing a race harness would be less safe than OE belts. However, I've never heard of anyone's insurance being voided because of haveing good quality racing belts on their car. Then again, canadian laws are different than US, so I can't say for certain.

I agree that a good driving course is worth quite a bit. However, I found the course that I took to lower my insurance quite useless. It didn't really touch on car control at all, and concerned itself with following the law to the letter. But, that's just around here. I'm sure there are much better ones.

FieroBlondie:

Your pics are sure scary. Okay, so I guess I don't know what exactly a MULE is. I was picturing a donkey, but I guess that's not the case.

So you were driving by next to this mule and it just fell onto your car?

I guess I just can't picture it.

Still, you were not hurt?

I wish I saved the pics from an e-mail a buddy sent me. This guy was driving a big SUV or pick-up truck..something big... and the pics showed that he hit a deer head on. This was not a head-on as there was no damage to the front of the vehicle. The pics showed the deer must have jumped/nose-dived into the windshield and landed smack dab in the middle of the cab.

The driver was unhurt but the pics were amazing in that the ass-end of the deer was sticking out the windshield and some other pics showed the front end of the deer crunched into the cab seat, antlers and all.

So what happened to this mule?

Posthumane, Yes, the laws are differant. Almost Everything in a U.S. car is regulated by either the USEPA and it's rules or USDOT/NHTSA thru the FMVSS. It is the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) that covers seat belts and anything else of a safety nature. It is a criminal offence for shops to install/service stuff that violates FMVSS.

There are differant levels of driving courses in many places down here as well. And yes some courses are better than others.

One course people might want to consider... It may not affect insurance but it will teach you how to control a car... take a good driving school. There are several around the U.S.

The skills you need on a road track like Watkins Glenn etc often translate dirrectly to the real world. These usually expensive coarses will put you on skid pads and other things to teach how to control a car and avoid things better/faster.

Some of your local area driving schools may also offer advanced courses... I used to see a car from one school around here that had a caster rig on it. They would go to a big parking lot, lock the caster rig down, which lightens the tire load, and then practice spins and slides. It was pretty cool to watch.

I've used 5 point harness' for years. I had no problem with getting it inspected or with the cop. It was in my daily driver. And yes I used them EVERY time even to go to the store. When you lose a friend because they didn't have a seat belt on an the fact that the guy he was riding with was drunk. Well it leaves a lasting effect on you. I think 5 points are actually more comfortable than stock. Stock belts cut into my collar bone. The 5 points are snug and the belt material is softer. It's like a safety blanket.

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The Stickman

http://members.tripod.com/~TheStickman/SnTsFieros.html

Hi Roger That...the entire story of the accident (and the fate of the mule) is in the OT section of the forum. Thanks for your concern. I've never seen/heard of a deer taking a nose dive onto someone's car! My boyfriend (fierogt914) and I were coming home from New Years celebration at a friend's house, though, and one came out of nowhere and took the right headlight off his 2000 trans am. Shame, too, cause he just got it last summer in mint condition with only 3000 miles on it.

Thanks for clarifing, Blondie.

I guess we all know why you are a blonde now.

quote Originally posted by theogre: Posthumane, Yes, the laws are differant. Almost Everything in a U.S. car is regulated by either the USEPA and it's rules or USDOT/NHTSA thru the FMVSS. It is the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) that covers seat belts and anything else of a safety nature. It is a criminal offence for shops to install/service stuff that violates FMVSS.

Thats why most shops won't remove airbags.

One of the big things to remember is seat belts have tension devices that allow slack and movement during the inital impact, causing the belt to catch you and then stop you from moving any farther forward. Race belts are designed to hold from the get-go.

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: One of the big things to remember is seat belts have tension devices that allow slack and movement during the inital impact, causing the belt to catch you and then stop you from moving any farther forward. Race belts are designed to hold from the get-go.

This isn't quite correct...

There have been a few types of seatbelts over the years. Three point sets in general use work one of three ways.

Early three point harness used the same manual adjustment as many 2 point harness sets. My 73 Maverick had a set like this. Had about the same friction adjusters still used in race 5 point systems.

Later ones, like Fiero, are sprung to hold the belt lightly durring normal driving. These systems use a pendulum to lock the retractor during rapid deceleration. The spring tensioner allows freedom of movement not posible in the early systems. When they are working right, they can only slack off to the first locking tooth when the pendulum swings. About 1/4 inch I think.

Note, dirt in the belt webbing and the retractors can easily screw up the inertial locking system. Old cars often have problems with it. Sometimes it won't lock. Other times it won't unlock and/or retract. Depends what system it is. (There are a few differant versions in use.)

Many newer cars go this a bit further. They have a pre tensioner device. This device, usually controlled by the airbag module, actually sinches up the harness durring impact. I think pretensioners are or soon will be required in all U.S. models.

This system is so new that no one knows how it will age. It could behaive better or worse than the inertial system depending on the specific system and the car it's in. (Some cars just get allot more filthy than others.)

As a side note, I've heard that one of the reasons most 5-point race harnesses are not DOT legal is because in order to be DOT legal it must have a push button release.

This was told to me by a vendor selling Schroth harnesses, and this vendor claimed that the particular harness he was selling was DOT legal.

Take that for what it's worth, and I don't know anything about making a DOT legal installation on a potentially DOT legal harness.

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Doug Chase
'88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (autocrosser)
'88 Fiero GT 5-spd (daily driver)
'85 Fiero GT 5-spd (rally car)
'87 Fiero SE V6 5-spd (for sale $2200)
'88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (parts car / future rally car #2)
Custom roll cage fabrication available
Custom exhaust fabrication available

From the pics, it looks like the Ford (not a taurus by the way) appears to have much less damage because of the angle it hit on. Much of the energy of the crash was used to sway the front end of the car off to the side, while the Fiero was crush inward, plus the Fiero was hit in the weakest part of the car. Still, If it was a sedan instead of a Fiero, I'm sure it would have been caved in a lot more.

If impact were to cause the not-Taurus to sway off to the side then I don't think it would ended up with the passenger side up. Rather, it drove into the Fiero, getting lift via my passenger side tire and at the same time getting 'caught' or snagged by the roof pillar. Then the inertia combined with that lift swung the car around to end up facing in the opposite direction it was travelling.

I was at first mystified at how it ended up with the passenger side up. You'd think the driver's side would be up.

And all this talk about harnesses does no good if you get peckered in the driver's side. I was hopping to get a more positive response about installing a cage. Let's say we were driving at slower speeds or the dumb blonde who hit me had the sense to hit the brakes.

There MUST be some advantage to a cage!

I understand the angle of the dangle and all. I've read where our Fiero's were supposed to be a rather safe car.

On another note, a few years ago I was approaching an intersection and had a green light. The road was wet and slippery. A small car (maybe a Geo) decided to run the light. He realized his mistake and stopped right in my lane. I hit the brakes but the road surface was about as good as ice and I did not notice a signifant reduction in speed. As I continued my slide he started to reverse direction, but too late.

We impacted, the intersection was not shaped like a + but rather an X where I was the bottom right of that X and the target was the top right.

I was going about thirty five, maybe forty before hitting the brakes, and he was doing maybe 5 mph in reverse.

I knocked that sonofab1tch into a complete 180 degree turn and he landed in his opposite lane, which was sepparated from his by a three-foot wide 'island'.

He had a passenger and while the accident was occuring I saw their heads rolling around, styrofoam coffee cups sloshing hot brew at the windows ( no burns ) and just general crap from their interior flying around.

Amazingly enough there was NO DAMAGE to either one of our cars !

After taking names and such - they seemed nervous and eager to be outa there - as was I, as I my registration expired about 2 days beforehand - I thought how great Fiero's were in accidents and that the rumors were true.

Okay.

So now I've been on both sides of the coin.

What happens in a draw?

quote Originally posted by Roger That: We impacted, the intersection was not shaped like a + but rather an X where I was the bottom right of that X and the target was the top right. Amazingly enough there was NO DAMAGE to either one of our cars !

How well did you look for damage? Only externally or did you go under and look at the frame and those egg carton energy absorbing panels? Was this in the same car? If it was I'm wondering if somehow something was weakened in the first impact.