I have often wondered why the 90 deg. 4.3 Chevy arn't more popular for Fiero swaps. The bellhousing pattern and engine mount are the same as the SBC so a partial V8 kit should work with no need for an expensive electric water pump or cutting the sheet metal.

GM sells a cast iron and alum. Bowtie block along with HP heads. Hp carb manifolds are readily available, so you wouldn't have to mess with a computer. Also, SBC parts can be used in most places on the engine. After all it is just a 350 that is missing 2 cylinders.

These things can put out lots of power. A Fiero would be gret with one.

Erik-

good question, I always thought these engines were meant more for trucks. my buddy has one in his 89 Blazer. One thing is that depending on when you get the engine from, it might be a throttle body instead of fuel injection. this is what i at least understood from what my friend told me. Im not sure about the newer 4.3's I think they made around 160-170HP

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

I guess basically for all that effort why not end up with a V-8. More torque/HP and a better sound....
BBTs

I think its not more popular because if you are going to go through the expense of a v8 kit you might as well put the v8 in it. V8's are cheaper to build then v6's and more power.

better $ to hp ratio

The 4.3L would fit better than the V8, is lighter and has real performance potential to boot. With a turbo I can see this engine making well over 500 HP. I believe that this engine also uses SBC pistons, rods and other parts. I believe that the exhaust is hard to route on this swap but I really like the idea. As for the question for the work why not just install a SBC?- I feel that you don't need much more engine than this. The Buick Grand National guys run in the 11's with this engine in a 3600 lb car and it would probably make a Fiero just as fast.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

Well, like they said, it's about the same amount of work to put in the 4.3 as it is a SBC, so why not go with the V8? On the other hand, if you want a hi-po V6 because it fits better, etc., then there are lots of V6's that will bolt to the Fiero tranny without an adapter, so why not use them? A 3800SC has more potential than the 4.3 primarily because there's an established aftermarket for it.

There is a considerable after market for the 4.3, ever hear of the typhoon or the cyclone. As some one said lots of the GNX guys swap out the 3.8 for the 4.3 for the greater displacement. All the GNX stuff bolts on. The biggest draw back to the 4.3 is the early ones lacked a balance shaft and as a result had a fair amount of vibration in the upper RPMs. But anything from about 91 and up has a full roller valve train and the balance shaft.

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86 SE, 88 front and rear suspension, rear coil overs, 6.6 Liter SBC with EFI, RaceTech ECU,Subframe Connectors, Poly Bushings,17X8 MHTs 235 45 17s front, 245 45 17s rears, Lots more!

I saw a twin turbo Grand national with a 3.8 (aftermarket block of course) pull 950 rear wheel hp. I dont think that extra .5 L of displacement makes that much of a difference if you ask me. Stick with the 3800 and you will be very sucessful

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http://www.fieroX.com

f#@k the naysayers, cause they dont mean a thing...
311

So I guess you would replace your 3.8 with a 3.1 or a 3.4.. cause the .5 doesn't make a difference!

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86 SE, 88 front and rear suspension, rear coil overs, 6.6 Liter SBC with EFI, RaceTech ECU,Subframe Connectors, Poly Bushings,17X8 MHTs 235 45 17s front, 245 45 17s rears, Lots more!

Keep in mind that the 4.3 is essentially a 350 with 2 cylinders lopped off. Its horsepower rating is so-so but for a V6 it does generate a lot of torque - roughly 30 ft-lbs less than the Vortec 4800 and Triton 4.6 V8's and close to that for the fuel-injected Chevy 305 for most of its life cycle.

With the Typhoon/Cyclone turbo the normal 190-200HP and 250-260 ft-lbs of the Vortec models is transformed to 280HP and 350 ft-lbs. If I remember correctly this is with about 5 lbs of boost.

The killer is that the engine has no top end to speak of - over about 4500RPM there's a big power dropoff - not all that different to the complaints I hear with the Chevy 305.

The 3.8 was a real mutt until it got tweaked and fuel injected - not much better than the pre-FI 2.8L.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The 4.3L would fit better than the V8, is lighter and has real performance potential to boot. With a turbo I can see this engine making well over 500 HP. I believe that this engine also uses SBC pistons, rods and other parts. I believe that the exhaust is hard to route on this swap but I really like the idea. As for the question for the work why not just install a SBC?- I feel that you don't need much more engine than this. The Buick Grand National guys run in the 11's with this engine in a 3600 lb car and it would probably make a Fiero just as fast.

Unless I'm mistaken, the GN 3.8 and 4.3 are totally different engines. The 3.8 is based on a Buick V8, the 4.3 on the Chevy. To start with, the 3.8 has the BOP pattern, the 4.3 has the Chevy pattern. Doesn't the 3.8 have a front distributor, while the 4.3 has a rear dist?

A turbo 4.3 would be at least as much work as an N/A V8 for the same result.

For V6 performance, I think the 3800SC is a better choice. It bolts directly to the Getrag, and has every bit as much performance potential as the 4.3.

Vortecfiero on the forum has a very nice 4.3 installed in his Fiero. His car is very fast and can knock off Vets. Hope he finds this and fills in the details. I think it is a very good choice for an engine swap.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 06-23-2002).]

Check out this link. They can and do make plenty of hp. Yes it cost as much as a V8 but there is that "just want to be different" thing with these. Personally I like the idea of it. As for the 3.8, there really isn't that much of an after market for them. Also to get power you have to stay fuel injected and I really want to go with a carb. Oh to hear that quad open up is just music to my ears.
http://www.speedomotive.com/4.3%20chevy%20v-6%20street%20master.htm
Duh, forget the link
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[This message has been edited by gargoyle (edited 06-22-2002).]

Ok, after reading the responses the answer to my question is obvious. Ignorance is the reason this is not considered more often.

Now I am going to ***** for about a paragraph. If you don't know what you are talking about, do not respond to ANY question, or at least make it clear you do not know for sure. I ran into this problem right away after joining this forum and looking for ways to build the 4 cyl. Everyone kept saying things like "just get a V6", "just drop in a V8", "150 HP is pushing it with the Duke, go above that and it will explode the first trip around the block", "your waisting your time you cannot get any power from the Duke".. ect. and thats only a few of the dozens of myths about the Duke. After very extensive research I have proven ALL of the above statments to be false. Remember what you post will be taken for fact by many people. Almost all the misleading things I was told about the Duke can be atributed to 2 websites which I will not name. Most of the time it was someones pesimistic misinterpetation of these articles that began the rumors. Eventualy thier conclusion, which was not based on fact or experience, was posted here. This is sad because it has kept many people from fully enjoying the 4 cyl. that came in thier car. Giving out false or unverified informartion as if it were fact DOES NOT help anyone on this forum.

Now that being said read my next post for the conclusion.

quote Originally posted by erikred: [quote]After very extensive research I have proven ALL of the above statments to be false.

What proof? I havent seen a Fiero based duke that has posted any dyno numbers, much less any making more than 150hp.

quote 3. 90 deg. V6 specific parts are also available, such as: Heads, Cams, Headers, and Intakes.

So are iron duke parts, what's your point?

quote 4. The 90 deg. V6 is a very succesful race engine, and is used in many different forms of racing includin Round Track, Drag Racing, and Boat Racing.

See previous comment about the iron duke

quote 5. The 3800, which is the one that will bolt to your trans axle, is NOT the same as the 3.8. Far fewer performance parts are available for the 3800 than the 3.8. There IS a good aftermarket for the 3.8, but you can see how this point is moot.

Why is it moot? They made 3.8l FWD blocks.

quote 6. Adding a turbo to the 4.3 would not be much harder than adding one to the 2.8.

since you can route the exhaust the same way on a 4.3 as you can on a SBC, you can make this same statement about turboing a swapped in V8.

quote GM sells a cast iron and alum. Bowtie block along with HP heads. Hp carb manifolds are readily available, so you wouldn't have to mess with a computer. Also, SBC parts can be used in most places on the engine. After all it is just a 350 that is missing 2 cylinders.

You're complaining about the cost of a v8 and want to buy a GM bowtie block? There's 2k right there. Add performance heads and a crank and you're at 4k just for the basics. You still have to finish building it, then pay for the swap into the car.

Leper,

First, I have proven it to myself. Trying to prove it to those who are set on another engine is both hopless and pointless. That doesn't mean they need to further the rumors that are out there. Why do they even need to reply at all if they don't have good info?

3. My point is the parts are available. It's obvious from some of the post that not everyone is aware of this.

4. I am not sure what your point is on 3 and 4.

5. Yes, you are correct. This brings up problems of it's own though. I am not going to bother listing them because this thread isn't about how great, easy, perfect ect. the 4.3 swap is compared to swap X.

6. So the V8 that I would have to sheet metal cut apart to install would take a turbo just as easy? I hope you did some serious upgrading to the cooling system too. I am sure someone out there wants/has a turbo SBC in thier Fiero, but it's just not something that would suite everyone.

Finaly, Yes I am complaining about the cost of the V8. The V8 swap is pretty sweet, but the way people talk about it you'd think it was the be al end all solution. Maybe some people are still stuck in the 70s when a straight line car was all you needed and all that existed, but the reality is it's 2002 . Cheezy cars like Civics are getting most of the attention. Why? Because of the it has to be a V"X" mentality. It's hipocritical to drive a Fiero and say "The only engine that belongs in a Fiero is "X"". Do you have any idea how many people who are into cars consider the Fiero scrap just because the engine is in the back? Swap what ever engine you want if it suites your needs. I think the 4.3 would be a great engine for a daily driven/raced/hp recreational driving Fiero. And NO, I will not be laying down $2k for a Bow tie block. I was just trying to give people an idea of what is available. For $4000 I could build a SD Duke powered Fiero that would walk all over a $4000 SBC powered one.

Erik-

quote Originally posted by erikred: ...I could build a SD Duke powered Fiero that would walk all over a $4000 SBC powered one. Erik-

I wonder why we don't see more SD powered Dukes. Other than the ones that paced the Indy 500 I haven't heard of any.

Actually I am running a intercooled 3.3 Liter with a Vortech Series 9 Supercharger, before my Transmission died I was putting around 300 HP to the ground. Now keep in mind that this motor cost me over $12,000 to build but it was worth every penny.

quote Originally posted by erikred: For $4000 I could build a SD Duke powered Fiero that would walk all over a $4000 SBC powered one.

Where exactly are you going to get and SD4 for less than $4000?

quote Originally posted by Leper: [QUOTE]Originally posted by erikred: [quote][b]After very extensive research I have proven ALL of the above statments to be false.

What proof? I havent seen a Fiero based duke that has posted any dyno numbers, much less any making more than 150hp.

quote 3. 90 deg. V6 specific parts are also available, such as: Heads, Cams, Headers, and Intakes.

So are iron duke parts, what's your point?

quote 4. The 90 deg. V6 is a very succesful race engine, and is used in many different forms of racing includin Round Track, Drag Racing, and Boat Racing.

See previous comment about the iron duke

quote 5. The 3800, which is the one that will bolt to your trans axle, is NOT the same as the 3.8. Far fewer performance parts are available for the 3800 than the 3.8. There IS a good aftermarket for the 3.8, but you can see how this point is moot.

Why is it moot? They made 3.8l FWD blocks.

quote 6. Adding a turbo to the 4.3 would not be much harder than adding one to the 2.8.

since you can route the exhaust the same way on a 4.3 as you can on a SBC, you can make this same statement about turboing a swapped in V8.

quote GM sells a cast iron and alum. Bowtie block along with HP heads. Hp carb manifolds are readily available, so you wouldn't have to mess with a computer. Also, SBC parts can be used in most places on the engine. After all it is just a 350 that is missing 2 cylinders.

You're complaining about the cost of a v8 and want to buy a GM bowtie block? There's 2k right there. Add performance heads and a crank and you're at 4k just for the basics. You still have to finish building it, then pay for the swap into the car.[/B][/QUOTE]

Uh oh, there's alot of people talking out of their ass again, even the person complaining about it...

"Why is it moot? They made 3.8l FWD blocks."
Well of course they did, and they've been around for awhile now. BUT THE GNX BLOCK is different. And to the guy who says "the 3800 isn't the 3.8". Um, don't believe I'll exactly go along with that one either. The 3800 is a 3.8L engine. It's the later model FWD 3.8 offered in many cars.

And it sounds like Will's kinda pulling some jargon from the rectal orfice too with his bolt-pattern explainations.

And someone PLEASE sum this up for me.. when was the 4.3 ever offered as a FWD engine??? I thought NEVER, but I could be mistaken on that one.

Dennis, you ask why not go ahead with the SBC, or that the torque from a 4.3 is all you'd need? Oh well, that's probably because the Getrag couldn't handle that kind of power as it is so weak.... (right??)

[This message has been edited by crypto1079 (edited 06-22-2002).]

quote Originally posted by crypto1079: And someone PLEASE sum this up for me.. when was the 4.3 ever offered as a FWD engine??? I thought NEVER, but I could be mistaken on that one.

1983 Chevrolet Celebrity offered a 4.3 liter engine in a front drive configuration, as a diesel

Erikred, If you weren't gonna prove it, why did you mention it?
As for

quote I am not sure what your point is on 3 and 4.

My point is that the iron duke carries even more of an advantage than the 4.3 in that it's smaller and lighter.
As for 6. Yes it would be just as easy to plumb the turbo. I'd hope you'd do some cooling mods to any high HP engine.

If people who know cars can't see the benifits of a mid engine layout, then they don't know alot about cars, do they?

Crypto1079, In english please?

Crypto, I did not say it wasn't the same engine. I sad it was diferent, which it is. IRCC it is metric and a significant amount of internal parts are different.

Leper, I can't argue against the Duke, it's my favorite engine! The "195hp Duke" and "Big Bad Duke" post should be enough proof of building a production Duke for you.

Erik-

quote Originally posted by erikred: Sweet! Are you sure it is the same 4.3 engine? Also, what was the bell pattern like? Erik-

Good question! I have no idea, I just remember a long time ago that someone mentioned this particular engine.

quote Originally posted by crypto1079: "Why is it moot? They made 3.8l FWD blocks." Well of course they did, and they've been around for awhile now. BUT THE GNX BLOCK is different. And to the guy who says "the 3800 isn't the 3.8". Um, don't believe I'll exactly go along with that one either. The 3800 is a 3.8L engine. It's the later model FWD 3.8 offered in many cars. And it sounds like Will's kinda pulling some jargon from the rectal orfice too with his bolt-pattern explainations.

The 3800 and the 3.8 are DIFFERENT engines. For example: the conversion from "imperial" to metric, two complete reworkings of the design, bolt pattern change, etc. I guess they are the same in the sense that the modern 4.5 litre Rover engine is the same as the Buick 215.

[rant]
If you want to say I'm pulling something out of my @$$, you needn't use euphemisms. However, you should have the common F!@#$% courtesy to prove me wrong when you call me out, rather than just saying I'm full of $h!t. Do you have any idea what you're talking about?
[/rant]

quote Originally posted by erikred: Leper, For $4000 I could build a SD Duke powered Fiero that would walk all over a $4000 SBC powered one. Erik-

i dont see you doing it. for 4 grand you could build a performance duke, but you wouldnt be able to get it over 200, while for 2 grand i could build a 300+hp 350 and spend the other 2 grand on a kit to install it. Now would a 200hp Fiero "walk all over" a 300hp Fiero? No, and dont pull that weight bull crap on me. Its about an extra 100lbs in the back, that aint enough for the duke to beat it. Get aluminium cylinder heads heads and a rear way bar and it'll out handle
tthat boring duke. I remember a web site that i seen a while ago about someone building a 200hp duke and he mentioned hes been collecting parts for it for years, while if someone were doing a 350 swap they'd be collecting parts for days. Now if the duke is so superior to build than the SBC, why isnt everyone getting a super duty duke? Why is it that they dont make the duke anymore but the SBC is still around since 1955. Your not gonna build a superdurty duke powered car for 4 grand that will out perform a 4 grand SBC swap unless the guy that did the SBC conversion was blind and had one arm. Even the build superduty duke that was in the "GTP" at WCF had only 170hp. The only disadvantage in see about the superduty vs SBC is the weight factor, but an extra 100lbs is nothing. From everyone that put in a SBC with no other mods said that they noticed very little change in the handling of the car from before, and other people said when they added a rear sway bar it handled better than it did before th swap.

Now you can get 200+hp out of a duke for less than 2 grand, but the only problem is it blow up after your first run. Also you could get about 300hp for 4 grand but youd still have the blowing up problem. Basically youd achive 200hp for less than 2 g's with a high shot of nitrous oxide. You can get the 300hp with a turbo with about 8lbs of boost and a high nitrous shot.

Now i have a friend with a Turbo Duke. With just the turbo with *I think* about 6lbs of boost it dynoed at 135hp. So far hes dumped about 5 grand into the car and is achieving about 160hp.

Basically, if you want moderate power good gas miledge, go with a duke, if you want fairly good gas miledge and neck-snapping, ball-flapping power, go with a V-8

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Adam
1987 Blue GT 5-speed
3.8 swap starting soon
IM AOL: GTFiero

quote Originally posted by erikred: Leper, I can't argue against the Duke, it's my favorite engine! The "195hp Duke" and "Big Bad Duke" post should be enough proof of building a production Duke for you. Erik-

And those threads also proved that a stock block can't take that much power. The guy said he cracked the block and head. He didn't use SD parts. How long did it last him? A whole week? Yea the Puke rules man

Well after reading thru the above posts, I have some comments.
First, The 4.3L engines are another option. Depending on who does it and where they get their parts determines swap costs. Yes Archie did a swap for less than $4K on a V-8. That doesn't mean that someone else could do the same swap for the same money. Some will spend less, some will spend more. The advantage goes to who can get quality used parts for less than Archie paid.
The 4.3L engines have their own advantages. Just like every other swap that people have done. Examples, Why spend the money for a 3800 when you can get more hp and higher RPM's from a 3.4L DOHC? Why spend the money on a 3800SC when an LM1 V-8 with a carb has roughly the same hp and cost less? ETC.
Both of the above can be argued back and forth and you still won't have an answer as to which is better.
Second, As for the SD4's, I know of at least 2 cars running that have SD4's. One has 232hp and is a screamer. Yes an SD4 is an expensive motor. The reason being it was originally designed as an "off road use only" engine. Take any other engine that GM, Ford, etc. designed and built for racing use and price it out. Right now Kansas Racing Products builds SD4's. They bought the design rights from GM when they ended their SD racing program. KRP sells/builds them because the SD4 is used in ARCA racing to this day. The production "Duke" is not a bad engine. Yes it has it's weak points just like every other engine out there. But if someone takes the time to actually study the facts, it can be done. The 195hp duke thread shows that the weak area's of the engine block are not on the S-10 truck version. I also know that the 1976 thru 1980 versions are the same design as the SD4 for strength. The only difference between the first dukes and the SD4 is the crankshaft diameter. For about $120 any machine shop can line-bore the block to accept the larget diameter crank and the SD4 main caps and bearings can be used.

Finally, I have seen many threads about different swaps. I've looked at the advantages/disadvantages/ease of swap/etc,
and have decided what my swap is and how I am going to do it. Many will agree with how I'm doing it and many will not. I really don't care who does and doesn't. It's a matter of opinion which is better. My thinking is, if you want to do an engine swap, decide what you want the swap to do for you, then locate the proper information on the swap. It's your car, it's your statement. Have fun and enjoy it.

In answer to the title of this thread, Uncreative thinking and peer pressure.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

...check this link for a 90 degree Chevy V6 of 4500 cc/475 hp...
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/019005.html

You want 4.3 POWER

quote Originally posted by gargoyle: You want 4.3 POWER

Someone hand me a towel...

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Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

less weight
less space used up
Syclone/typhoon parts available
200 hp 260ftlbs torque smog free
the crate motor was 800cdn intake to oilpan
did i say TORQUE ?
better gas milage
easier on tranys
weird intake (CPI)
lots of engines available

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84 Fiero Phantom GT :D
Vortec 4300 CPI 5 spd.
Best ET 14.4 @ 95 mph
Go'in turbo

Droooooll....
Now, let me use the longitudinal tranny on this (maybe even keep some of my trunk) and smile as I notice the look on peoples faces when they notice the blower peekin over the roof...

quote Originally posted by gargoyle: You want 4.3 POWER

Wow, if you could turn that bugcatcher 90 degrees so it pointed forward, we might have a winner.

I have pondered this swap myself(not the exact one pictured above), and here is what I came up with.

Sure, you can make more power with the V8. There are many prove recipies for making gobs of power with them. It's hard to make a power argument for the V6 against the V8 with two extra holes.

With the 4.3, you would not have the water pump clearance problems. Any accessory system (and water pump) that bolts to a SBC will work on it. The rear weight penalty would not be as bad as a V8. The V8 adapters would work. The lower torque output could tend to settle the minds of those who doubt the strength of the 5 speed trannys (let's not get into that here though).

The Syclone/Typhoon guys have proven that the stock block, & crank are good for a reliable 600 hp at no more than 5700 to 5900 rpm. I have seen several 4.3s making 312 flywheel hp (normally aspirated, no nitrous) using the GM OBDII computer (1996 & up). If you are really serious about building an a** kicking 4.3, go to http://www.machperformance.com . He has a bunch centrifugally supercharged S10 customers in the low 13's, some close to the 12's and one that is knocking on the 11's. All of this in brick shaped trucks that weigh close to 2 tons that still have awesome driveability.

Admittedly, by the time you get to a V6 like that, you are talking about a pricey little engine. The flipside of that is you have an engine that will safely support up to 600 horsepower, more with billet main caps. You could use an aluminum block & heads, but that takes you well into 5 figures. However you would have an ultra lightweight V6 that can spank out that kind of power.

As a qualifier here, the only way that you could get 600 streetable horsepower from a 4.3 is with turbocharging or with a centrifugal supercharger. An air to air intercooler setup would also be a must.

I don't know if I convinced anyone for or against the 4.3, I haven't totally decided myself. I just thought I would throw out some of the points I came up with.

Finally, someone commented that electric water pumps are not reliable. Depending on the brand, I must disagree based on my limited experience with one brand. I have used the Mezerie high flow remote electric pump on a couple of engines, a 455 Olds and a 454 Chevy (both dyno mule engines). The power level of both engines varies depending on what we are trying on them, but is typically in the range of 500 - 800 horsepower. They are used on the dyno and actually installed in cars on occasions. Both are subjected to EXTENDED periods of time at WOT, and this pump does very well on both applications.

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I shall be kicking myself for selling my 87 GT until I replace it.