OK I just found a pretty good opportunity to get a cadillac 4.5 V8 from a 1990 Deville. THe engine has high km's so Im thinking of possibly getting it rebuilt. Any opinions on this??? Or can I do anything myself to ensure the engine will last longer (it supposedly has 300,000+kms)

Also I need to know compared to a 4.9, will the 4.5 provide as much torque as the 4.9? is there a significant difference? Is the 4.5 worth it really? or should I keep looking for a 4.9?

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

Just think of the 4.9 L as a Chevy 350 and the 4.5L as a Chevy 327. You get the idea. The 1990 has the best (long) rods and uses reg. 4.9L pistons with the 4.1 crank. The 4.5 is a bored 4.1. The 4.9 is the larger bore 4.5 stroked. If you want to build a motor to rev, this is the way to go. If you want maximum HP you can't beat cubic inches. {:0) Mark

If you listen objectively to the guys who promote the 4.9 swap they say it is cheap and relatively easy power. They also say if you have to sink big money into this swap then don't do the swap. Go to the SBC engine where there is more power and add-ons.

So if your attemps to rebuild are going to cost big money skip it and do the Archie thing.

Incidently the 4.5 is a aluminum engine with steel sleeve cylinders. Coolant must be changed religiously or the steel head gasket will rot.

If you have the money go for the chevy way it is going to run you$4-$5000 to have it right,before I did my 4.9 conversion I looked at the chevy route and a few things I did not like and my #1 turnoff was the water pump deal and that is why I went caddyand I have not regretted it a moment less headache very practical and cheap.
My car will run with any of the big boys out there up to 147 mph (very scary feeling start to float around) and who drives at that speed legally, light to light I kick their ass so most who say the 4.9 is crap have you driven one that is running right? then don't say the engine is a joke.My car has so much power that I rearly use 1st to move off because it smokes my 17" tires laying down rubber for at least 15 feet if I punch it what more could a man want for the money invested.So the choice is yours to make and which ever way you go you will enjoy it a world class sports car for peanuts.

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85 Fiero (Savage)
345-HP/5SP 4.9 Cadillac.
88 Cradle
11.2" Zettner Brakes
Custom Coilovers
Flowmaster 80's
Keith Dorton 500cfm Carb#0-8583
Edelbrock-70001 3stage NOS kit.
Mallory HY-FireIgnition

The '90 4.5 was a one year only engine, 180 hp, 245 lbft, the 4.9 is 200/275. Externally it looks almost identical to a 4.9. It has a few parts that are only found on the '90. It is the only port injected 4.5. It is the only PFI used with a 4T60 trans. I've passed up plenty of them, but if it's cheap enough, get it. I have one in a Fiero, I really can't feel much difference between it and a 4.9, although my friend thinks the 4.9 is faster.

The 4.9 seems to be a big bang for the buck. But i have a question, how easy is it to put in? I don't like the idea of fabricating motormounts at all. Because if they aren't built right you will go through them every 30 seconds, another thing is what about the ECM and everything. Would i get this from rockcrawl??

quote Originally posted by Psychosis39: Would i get this from rockcrawl??

In my time on this forum, I have found Rockcrawl to be one of the most knowledgable and helpful when it comes the caddy swap. You can't go wrong by asking him for advice.
Don't forget to check out is website. Lots of great stuff. http://www.fieroaddiction.com

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CFOG-I | GTA Fiero Club

what years/cars can I find the 4.9 V8 in?

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

quote Originally posted by 88LeSabre: what years/cars can I find the 4.9 V8 in?

1991-1995 fwd caddy, vin code B (eigth digit)

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so which caddies were NOT FWD?
As far as I understood the Eldorado was the first FWD caddy but by 91 most of them SHOULD have been FWD, am I right?

Like the Deville? Seville?
Im starting to realize I don't know exactly which models they made back then..

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

quote Originally posted by Psychosis39: The 4.9 seems to be a big bang for the buck. But i have a question, how easy is it to put in? I don't like the idea of fabricating motormounts at all. Because if they aren't built right you will go through them every 30 seconds, another thing is what about the ECM and everything. Would i get this from rockcrawl??

The 4.9 IS the best bang-for-the-buck conversion I know of, and is no harder to install than a Quad 4.

There is only one conversion I know of that you will not have to fabricate motor mounts. That is a 3.4. Now, the 4.9 mounts that are fabricated are the mounting points to the frame - the actual donuts are Caddy (at least on mine!).

If you are looking for a bolt-in conversion, then about the only engines are the 2.8, 3.1, and 3.4.

I don't understand the "go through them every 10 seconds" statement, I have the 4.9 and earlier a Q4 conversion in a Fiero, and have never changed a motor mount yet. Reinforce the cradle, yes. Crack the cradle, yes. But change motor mounts - - never!!

The PFF isn't the place to get details of this swap, CaderoOwnersForum@yahoogroups.com is a more likely spot to get the finite details. But their are two trains of thought on the ECM, a 305 Chev and the stock Cad, I have the 305 ECM.

G

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 06-17-2002).]

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: But their are two trains of thought on the ECM, a 305 Chev and the stock Cad, I have the 305 ECM. [This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 06-17-2002).]

What is the difference here between the two ECMs? does this have anything to do with the wiring harness? Whats wrong with using the same ECM as the 4.9 comes with? Would you have to get this ECM modified?

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

Im sure it is not that hard. Id love to do it myself but i dont have a hoist or an engine lift...i'll snag one

As far as the parts are concerned
Talk to PBJ, he says that he has frinds that are makeing an ECM ( i think ) just for that specific swap, they'll go for a few hundred

The parts are easy to get

You need:
2 wiring harnesses (ECM and Engine)
Water pump
*standard* Flywheel
Oil cooling system
ECM
Engine and block
Some tubeing

*you can get the Engine mounts from a guy named Bubbjoe, he makes them, theyre made for the cadero swap*

Smaler Alt
Smaler high power starter

Asides from that and advanced mechanical/electrical skills

Im sure the swap could be done really really easily, one thing i've learned
-don't play with the engine

PBJ ( if still willing ) says that swap could be done for you for about $6000 CAD

SOMEONE HAS TO FILM AN ENTIRE SWAP
and sell the tapes
1 auto
1 standard

Id pay at least $50 for that film

Anyone wanna do that???

Once i do the swap you'll see a million msgs from me, i'll keep you posted w/ pics and all

Get back to me on the filmed conversion

anyone?

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Steven Rossi

quote Originally posted by stevenrossi: Talk to PBJ, he says that he has frinds that are makeing an ECM ( i think ) just for that specific swap, they'll go for a few hundred

Regarding the ecm, The PROM is what needs the delicate "messing" with. And Rockcrawl is the man with the "help" in this area-he can do wonders with the engine management system.

I can write more about the diff ecm's after hours if you need some explaining or e-mail me

Pete

please do tell us everything you know, it will be of great help to everyone I'm sure.

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

quote Originally posted by stevenrossi: You need: 2 wiring harnesses (ECM and Engine) Water pump *standard* Flywheel Oil cooling system ECM Engine and block Some tubeing *you can get the Engine mounts from a guy named Bubbjoe, he makes them, theyre made for the cadero swap* Smaler Alt Smaler high power starter PBJ ( if still willing ) says that swap could be done for you for about $6000 CAD

This list looks like it was copied from BubbaJoe's website, and as is most of the info he puts out, it is wrong!

You need the original engine harness from the donor car (only).

The stock Caddy water pump will work.

Yes, a flywheel is needed for a standard tranny swap.I personally don't like the modified 2.8 flywheel concept - - that thing is turning to close to my body and head!! I have seen turbines on jets let loose, and the similarities are too close. I am using a billet steel flywheel machined
by Greg Duncan.

An oil cooler is required, available at any parts store.

Either a stock Caddy ECM, or a Chev 01227730 ECM - both have been used successfully. Until a custom setup is designed, the Chev unit has more programmability.

I'm not sure what tubing you are referring to, there are some hoses that modified or swapped, but i don't recall any tubing.

Take a look at BubbaJoe's $150 mounts. Welded on one side of the joint only, with voids throughout the weld. Why bother? You would either need to get them re-welded or just fabricate your own. I'll tell you how.
1. Bolt your engine and tranny together.
2. lower into the cradle.
3. Bolt the tranny in place.
4. Mark where the engine rests on the cradle in the back, there are some holes to be drilled in the cradle.
5. Fabricate brackets from 4"x1/2" steel stock at the other corners.
6. Use the stock Caddy mounts and donuts to bolt to your fabricated brackets.
7. With a three or four point engine mounting
you will not need a dogbone.
8. Done!!

A smaller alternator is NOT needed, the stock caddy unit fits just fine. I think Pete, Jon, and I all have the stocker, if I am not mistaken.

A slight modification to the mounting flange will accomodate the stock Fiero starter, and this combo will work with the standard tranny. No need to buy a high dollar starter.

This swap can be successfully (and correctly) done for $1000 Canadian, or maybe as much as $1000 USD. But it shouldn't take any more than that to do it yourself.

To have it done? Ed Parks has a setup to install a NEW engine in your car for you for about the same price Pete quoted.

G

I stand corrected, i've been so busy with other things that i've lost touch with the knowladgeable people

Thanks cadero

you've helped a lot

I think when i'm doing the conversion i will ask you more about the cradle and starter mods when i actually do the conversion

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Steven Rossi

Yes I agree with steve here. You seem to be the most knowledgeable person Ive come across regarding this subject (besides perhaps rockcrawl) but when you say under $1000 do you mean including engine purchase or after purchase?

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

Hey Cadero2dmax: I was just wondering if you might have some pics of the fabricated engine mount brackets ?. I like the idea of using the stock caddy mounts. I would really appreciate any help you could give me.

Thanks,

Yea about the stock caddy mounts. Can you give a complete list of what I will need from the Caddy for the swap. (Just in case I can't get a whole one for cheap and I need to get it from a wreckers). Beacuse I don't want to grab the engine and then realize I left a few parts behind I actually needed (such as the engine mounts that I now know about =))

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

quote Originally posted by 88LeSabre: Yea about the stock caddy mounts. Can you give a complete list of what I will need from the Caddy for the swap. (Just in case I can't get a whole one for cheap and I need to get it from a wreckers). Beacuse I don't want to grab the engine and then realize I left a few parts behind I actually needed (such as the engine mounts that I now know about =))

Get the complete engine from the donor car - including the a/c compressor, exhaust crossover pipe, alternator, well, everything!!

You will also need the engine harness, and the ECM (if you don't go the 7730 ECM).

What a lot of people do is buy the entire Caddy car, take what they need, and then sell the Cad back to the yard when they are done.

After having done several different conversions, I gotta tell you that a few months later when it is time to replace something, it is so much easier if you know exactly what it is.

For example, you could use an Isuzu pickup diesel alternator (Just an example). You go to the parts counter - - "What year is it?" I don't know, it came off an Isuzu pickup, I think it was diesel - - Get the idea? If you stay with your same model/year Cadillac, it is so much easier to maintain!!

Anyway, get everything flywheel forward from the Cadillac, up to and including the belts - just as if you were putting it back into another Caddy. Driveshafts forward if you are using the 4T60 trans for your swap.

I hope I haven't oversimplified this conversion. As I stated, I have done or been hands-on with several conversions. This is about the easiest I have done - - on a par with the Q4. The wiring is the absolute most difficult part (at least to me) with any conversion, this one is no easier - but no harder - than the others.

Yes, $1000 including the donor engine (if you use the trans it will probably be more).
You can find this engine for $500 - $600 in most places. I have found entire wrecked Caddies for that amount!! Until the yards wise up and realize there is more of a market than they think, these engines are cheap power

I do not have photos of the engine mounting on my car, but the next time I get the car on jackstands I will take a couple (may not be for a while, this car is RELIABLE!!)

I do have some pix of the mounts that Ed has fabricated, but that is not for me to publish. That would be his place to release these pictures. Since his installation is exclusive, I just can't do it in good conscience.

G

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 06-18-2002).]

Back to the original question. I doubt there is one tick (a tenth of a second) difference in the 2 engines on the 1/4. The 4.5 should be easier to launch with a standard - less clutch slippage and wheelspin - and should give better mileage by a mpg or so. They pretty much look the same, sound the same, and so my advice is that if you can get the 4.5 cheaper/easier - - go for it.

What do you say, PBJ? Rockcrawl?

G

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: What do you say, PBJ? G

Keep up the good work!

I would recommend too to do a search in technical using the word (cadero) and will find lots of other threads too.

Pete

would you guys say the process is more or less difficult if you take the 4t60 tranny from the caddie w/ the engine? I've been putting more and more thought to going the 4.9 route myself, but I'm sick of the 3 speed auto in the fiero now, I do a decent amount of highway driving, and spinning 3500 rpms driving down the highway kinda kills the gas milage.

I've also heard that you don't need a crossover pipe from the caddy if you go with (i think ) a seville, aparently it has a y-pipe

Also

If i use the chev ECM do i also get its corresponding Harness?

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Steven Rossi

If I where doing the swap again I would use the caddy electonic shift trans and caddy ecm. (assuming it was and auto) The 125 works well, but the engine is suited IMO to and overdrive trans to keep the revs down on the hwy.

Most of us have used the exhaust manifold that uses a crossover pipe because it already dumps out in one place, especially if you want to retain your lower trunk.

The 730 ecm (chev) uses the same connecters as the caddy ecm, just need to change some of the terminals locations, and change the sequential injection (PFI) to batch fire (MPI) too.

Pete

I'm in the middle of the swap now,well almost the middle making my own mounts and belt brackets.so far i have spent 200$ on the entire swap,something I was wondering I dont want to go moding this engine enternally but is there a smaller crankshaft pulley that will fit so as to free up a few hp and I have an elderbrock nx kit 100-250hp shotleft over from my vette days will the 4.9 take the juice in stock form and if so how much before I have a big pretzel for an engine? thnks for any help advice

But if I do go with a 4.5, its not the speed issue im worried about, or the difference in HP/tork, its all about the ease of installation and RELIABILITY. I mean I've been told that its best to replace the 4.5 cam with one from a 4.9. As well, how reliable is taking an engine say already past the 200,000km mark? At this point, if Im looking to keep the car running a while, should I have it rebuilt? or is there a cheap way to make sure it stays reliable?

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

quote I've been told that its best to replace the 4.5 cam with one from a 4.9

Says who? They already have the same cam, exactly.

The 4.9 had a few other improvements though. Different piston design for reduced cold noise (they still make noise), new lifter angle for reduced friction/wear, new style oil pump. Minor differences really, the oil pump is the most signifigant.

Here are a few pics of the last 4.9 I installed. It has 130k miles on it. Not a spot of sludge on the top end.


I have eight of these engines ranging from 50k to 150k miles, and every one is just as clean. Compare that to the average 100k 2.8!!

p.s. I only took the valve covers off to swap them left to right. The engine went into the Fiero without anything else being done to it. I normally would have resealed it, but I had 18 days to do the swap and be ready for Carlisle. No time to tear it down.

[This message has been edited by rockcrawl (edited 06-18-2002).]

So I should go with a 4.5 if I can get the whole car cheap?? cause I might be able to get this 1990 deville (i think I mentioned this earlier) and not have to change anything that I wouldnt have to change with the 4.9???

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

BUMP =)

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

For what it's worth:

Buy the caddy if it's cheap, make the swap, and BEAT THE CRAP out of that 4.5 until it dies. TOUCH NOTHING.

Then grab a 4.9 long-block, and bolt everything back up. You'll already have your injection system worked out, the only change reallly, being the block...

Ta-da!

quote Originally posted by Mach10: For what it's worth: Buy the caddy if it's cheap, make the swap, and BEAT THE CRAP out of that 4.5 until it dies. TOUCH NOTHING. Then grab a 4.9 long-block, and bolt everything back up. You'll already have your injection system worked out, the only change reallly, being the block... Ta-da!

well said. I agree, once you have the 4.5 mounted, there is no change with the 4.9. As you said earlier the 4.5 you can get is a 90 and it should be PFI already.

Pete

good idea. I guess I will if I get the chance. Otherwise I will go for the 4.9. But I will try, any problems with the 4.5 I should know about then before I get it? Like anything I should definately replace? Thanx

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

Bump

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

If its going in a standard, but in a new clutch, but otherwise, put it in and drive it. I put a water pump in mine, only cause it sat for a bit.

Pete

Thanx for the advice. I'm just slightly worried because I have a feeling that this engine that I might be getting is gonna need a lot of work, of course I'm not sure. The engine might actually be fine.. well, we will have to see.

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1988 Buick LeSabre Limited

Alex

Very informative! Thank you all.