Fierotech...

Now you're being a little off handed. I have only tried to pass on what little I know and have done to date. I've also said repeatedly that I don't know alot about the techniques or whatever is done at any machine shop. I only know what I was advertised, pointed my finger at, and said "Uhhhh, Me Want That!"

I don't know what else to tell you. I did not do the Cams or the valves or any of the other mods save BOLTING them on in some cases. My only point here is that these mods ARE out there and if you're interested... go get them.

When someone asks "what mods are there for X engine?", they are not asking how the porting is done or the cam is ground or whatever... they want to know WHERE they can go (IF they can go) anc buy a BOLT-ON solution. Nothing more. The people that know how to do these things are NOT here asking.

So I am both confused and, now, a bit bothered as to what your issue really is...

It's nice to see WCF chime in here as most of the feedback I get about them is that they are the ONLY ones that know anything about Fieros and the motors you can wedge in them... and it they don't know it, it doesn't exist. Well said indeed.

So maybe this is why they've always given me crappy service?

What I really want to know here is, what are you selling? What is so important about all this? Quite frankly, if you're not interested in this motor, stock or modified, why are you spending so much time arguing against it? Do you run a shop specializing in some other swap? Am I costing you business in some way? What have you to loose?

It must be something because you are VERY into this discussion which is NOTHING more than one guy's sharing of his enjoyment of his motor with others that are interested in going the same route.

I have NEVER claimed or implied that these numbers are absolute. I have always said that the "math" worked out such a way, dyno'd and verified math and that I only have limited knowledge of what actually takes place "in there". I am not a mechanic. I am not a machinist. Never said I was...

Again, when I picked up this car, half of what we're talking about was done already when I bought the car. Which is why I bought it

It was FAST and FUN and I like that. From there, it was a matter of finding out "what else" can be done and doing it. At first, everyone told me that NOTHING could be done. Stock is it... Now I know better.

That's what I'm passing on... the knowledge that there ARE options. That's it.

I don't see ANY disclaimers on ANYONE'S posts saying "results may vary".

Okay... you win. Maybe, perhaps, sometimes, usually, etc. Does that make anyone that WANTS to hear the positives hear it any different? Nope. Not at all.

I am not running my motor all day at 8000 rpms. I don't think I ever have.

I know that I've ran it to 7500 many times and I have also bounced the limiter a few times, I've got some video of that too

I know that I have YET (fingers crossed) to experieince any ill-effects of high RPM damage or problems other than the one time I torqued the crank.

I know that my Grand Prix did 156 MPH and that's the fastest I've ever had it.

I know that I did (or had done rather) the porting, polishing and TB done.

I know that I installed the fuel riser system and new fuel pump.

It IS a common rule of thumb that "on the average" 7 lbs if 50% of BHP. Generic numbers have ALWAYS been and will continue to be, based on this concept. Our buddy Chris West is the first to shove those numbers down your throat. Where do you think I learned them?

These are examples of things I KNOW and these are the things I have shared... What you are asking me to do is "in detail" explain performance mods that I do NOT know the details for. Mods I was NOT present for...

How completely two-faced would I be to comment on those things I know NOTHING about, when I'm being critisized for only commenting on what I DO know about?

Truth be told... 90% of the people buying and installing performance parts on their cars, like me, no NOTHING about how or why they work. They just picked up a magazine and liked what they saw.

I'm guilty of this as well... sue me.

DKOV -

DKOV,

This is probably why...

Truth be told... 90% of the people buying and installing performance parts on their cars, like me, no NOTHING about how or why they work. They just picked up a magazine and liked what they saw.

I'm glad your install works so well, and keep us advised.

Should have added--I am no expert, but a bit of experience.

[This message has been edited by Larry (edited 05-17-2002).]

The longer I think about all of this... the more I'm thinking I'm done.

Seems to me that the best thing to do when asked about what you've done and how it performs, is say nothing... Because there is ALWAYS somebody that knows more or better.

I take everything back and change my answer to...

I'm no expert, but I have some experience and in my humble opinion, a 3.4L TDC simply KICKS A$$ !!!

How and why... is up to you

DKOV -

[This message has been edited by DKOV (edited 05-17-2002).]

!? Assuming 15% driveline losses, that's *333.5bhp* at the crank! Holey SHNIKIES!

And rather more than a little bit insane... )

(sitll missing the something not quite right, unless you mean *excedding* your hp guestimates as being some sort of... bad thing? Nah ;D) ;D) ;D)

Best!
Ben

quote Originally posted by DKOV: No... adjust from crank to wheels. That is AT THE WHEELS HP. But it's still not quite right, is it? I'm waiting for others to chime in DKOV - [This message has been edited by DKOV (edited 05-16-2002).]

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Thanks for sharing what you DO know. There will always be skeptics... doubting Thomas's, if you will, but your dyno sheet speaks for itself.

What would be great for those who would like to follow in your footsteps is if you could do a little detective work at the original source of your modifications and find out a few more details about the cams. Inquiring minds want to know. However, with all the greif you've taken over this I wouldn't blame you if you just said, "screw it".

------------------
Roy :D
Just another stock Blue 87 GT
Suncoast Fieros

JUST ADDED: YELLOW 1988 GT w/ T-Tops, 5-Speed, and Performance Sound.

quote Originally posted by DKOV: That is nearly a direct quote of what I've been saying all along DKOV -

OK, I've been pretty consistent with what I've been saying; not doubting what HP level the motor is capable of, but rather doubting DKOV, the validity of his statements, his misinformation, etc. Since we're talking about "direct quotes" here, let ME make a direct quote:

"<snip>...I do have a supercharger sitting on my owrkbench that I have been eyeing for the 3.4 for some time, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

I started from a Stock 215 HP 3.4L DTC and rebuilt it from the block up with all the goodies like port/polish on the heads and intake manifolds (yes there are two), some valve work, custom exhaust, underdrive pulley, fuel pressure riser, intake, etc.

Mathematically, the enging tops out at 322.8 HP although I have yet to dyno it for "at the wheel" HP. All this while normally aspirated.

Adding a SC would boost the HP to 400+ and I'm not sure that the car, the tranny or the driver could handle that!!!

My Lotus, on the other hand, has 330 HP while some of the most recent models have 450 HP. With the ECU tweak, the boost levels can be increased to some 500+ HP!!!...<snip>

DKOV -"

If that doesn't look familiar to a lot of you, it was posted in a discussion started back in December, that floated back to the top early May.

DKOV, buddy...I've been being pretty polite, I believe. The fact that you chose to take offense at my last post, I don't really understand. But, I would like everyone who's reading this to go back and re-read this ENTIRE thread, paying REAL close attention to what DKOV said this time around. Waitin' for you guys to get back here...

Welcome back. Now, for the pleasure of our viewers, re-read the quote I directly cut-n-pasted from another discussion. If anyone can give me one reason not to feel like Mr. DKOV isn't completely full of , I'm listening.

And if someone misses the point of WHY I question anything he says, at this point, you're definitely not reading carefully enough. I think it's pretty clear.

Otherwise, DKOV, I think you DO have the right idea...say nothing.

Triad, you started this thread with a good question about DOHC performance, that I would have loved to see some good responses to. All the people with DOHCs around here, I figured SOMEONE would have some real 1/4 mile times, etc, to post. Though I know not everyone gets to drag their car, or even wants to. We did get a dyno chart, but, let's consider the source. Would YOU bet the farm on it?

There's several good discussion forums around with a lot of active people. You can possibly learn something from the guys playing with them in the factory cars they came in. I have, at least, seen a few dyno sheets, etc, around. Just watch out for the guys that sound like their full of it, since usually, they are.

So, to answer your questions to the best of my ability, from what I've learned from sources I can consider reasonably reliable:

0-60 & 1/4 mile time? Don't honestly know. Would love to hear some real numbers if anyone out there has 'em.
Needed for safe 8000RPM runs? Like I quoted before, I've heard that you need stouter springs or shims above about 7600. The stock guys have talked about it seem to confirm the same thing. There's speculation above that number, but no hard facts that I've seen. TerryK probably has more personal experience with this...
Performance upgrades, and where? DKOV's list is basically valid; same as any internal combusion motor. Though I wouldn't go looking for roller rockers. Again, the discussion boards (try gmforums.com for starters) have some info; there isn't a strong aftermarket, but anything can be custom made, if you want to spend the $$.

Take care all...
Jeremy B.

[This message has been edited by Fierotech (edited 05-17-2002).]

quote Originally posted by mrfixit58: and find out a few more details about the cams.

Yes, because the cams are where the power comes from. 120 rwhp over stock doesn't appear out of porting, polishing & decking

quote Originally posted by Fierotech: DKOV, buddy...I've been being pretty polite, I believe.

From my viewpoint...you've not been close to "pretty polite" by throwing around accusations. If polite was what you're going for, I think it's time to send you back to etiquette training!

DKOV...more power to you, that thing sounds like a blast!

Bryce
88 GT

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fierotech:

[b]"<snip>...I do have a supercharger sitting on my owrkbench that I have been eyeing for the 3.4 for some time, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

I started from a Stock 215 HP 3.4L DTC and rebuilt it from the block up with all the goodies like port/polish on the heads and intake manifolds (yes there are two), some valve work, custom exhaust, underdrive pulley, fuel pressure riser, intake, etc.

Mathematically, the enging tops out at 322.8 HP although I have yet to dyno it for "at the wheel" HP. All this while normally aspirated.

Adding a SC would boost the HP to 400+ and I'm not sure that the car, the tranny or the driver could handle that!!!

My Lotus, on the other hand, has 330 HP while some of the most recent models have 450 HP. With the ECU tweak, the boost levels can be increased to some 500+ HP!!!...<snip>

Oh, oh... I have a question!!!

What do any of these posts have to do with anything?

Can we possibly take a statement ANY MORE out of context?

To be continued...

quote Originally posted by Nashco: From my viewpoint...you've not been close to "pretty polite" by throwing around accusations.<snip> Bryce 88 GT

The only accusations I have made, er, excuse me, "thrown around", are that he is making statements that he doesn't understand, and potentially can be harmful, or at least inconvenient, to others; and that he doesn't seem to know much about his own motor. You have the entire text of this conversation in front of you. You are welcome to show me the accusations I missed, and I will either apologise for them, if that is appropriate, or substantiate them.

Public apologies to all. I won't, however, apologise for pointing out inconsistencies with someone else's information, or trying to stop the further spreading of misinformation, or guesses passed off as fact.

And, I still can't believe someone can read this entire thread, with the statements that DKOV made, and then reference his earlier post, clearly stating that "I started from a Stock 215 HP 3.4L DTC and rebuilt it from the block up with all the goodies...", and NOT see where I am uncomfortable taking him at face value...

Take care, all...
Jeremy B.

quote Originally posted by mrfixit58: What would be great for those who would like to follow in your footsteps is if you could do a little detective work at the original source of your modifications and find out a few more details about the cams.

Believe me, I'm looking...

As I've said, they PO was a GM tech and PIR track official... A real Race Freak and had the car ordered VERY early in the production run for nothing more than just "track time". He then had the internal motor work done and added the ECU change and a cold air induction (which I've replaced) and at this point, God knows what else. He made a strong point of making sure I understood that it takes "ONE ADDITIONAL QUART OF OIL" due to some modification he made. From what I can see, he added a TWO oil coolers and .5 quart each.

Now he's gone. Got involved in some non-profit kids program and moved back east. So, I'm down to his personal notes and big yellow envelopes full of receipts and business cards and stuff.

Then there's my changes, which you know what I know. I think I have a spec on the exact proportions of the new TB somewhere though...

Anyway, thanks for your support. ALL you guys!

DKOV -

quote Originally posted by DKOV: continued... ~Hmmm... started with a 215 HP engine and redid all that work I listed... Okay... got me again! I did it! All of that!!! I do have an engine that was worked!!! Of course, back when I started, I didn't know half of what I do now about this motor and apparently, that isn't half of what there IS to know Yes, it reads that I, personally, did all the work and I did not. Nor did I mean to imply that I did. Just that it was done. ...

That's the ONLY thing I was concerned with. Naa, that's not relevant, at all.

I got to go. Be back later,
Jer

quote Originally posted by Fierotech: That's the ONLY thing I was concerned with. Naa, that's not relevant, at all. I got to go. Be back later, Jer

Maybe it's just me but I really don't get it. Very rarely doesn ANYONE do the actuall work on parts they install... Ohh... I get it, you thought I was a MACHINE SHOP or a Mechanic?

I get it now... !?!

DKOV -

quote Originally posted by DKOV: Maybe it's just me but I really don't get it. Very rarely doesn ANYONE do the actuall work on parts they install... Ohh... I get it, you thought I was a MACHINE SHOP or a Mechanic? I get it now... !?! DKOV -

*snicker*...I interpreted it to read that you were actually the machine at one point in time!...*snicker*

Bryce
88 GT

man you guys are still at it?!?!?!
Every one has an opinion of "how things work" the person receiving the info has to make his / or her own conclusion on who to trust and listen to.

There, now Triad.... have you done a search on the web? I tryed in 3.4dohc and came up with several pages. I got all kinds of info by clicking on THEIR links...try it

You're a real ******* , you know that?

Can't you see that DKOV is just contracting his english here? When he says "I did all this to the motor" He's really saying wat was *done*. Not all by him. Infact, I'd bet next to NONE was actually performed with his own two hands. Some he had done by profesionals, some the previous owner had done by other profesionals. All of it was done, and DKOV owns the car...

Figure it out man, jesus, you're thick.

quote Originally posted by Fierotech: The only accusations I have made, er, excuse me, "thrown around", are that he is making statements that he doesn't understand, and potentially can be harmful, or at least inconvenient, to others; and that he doesn't seem to know much about his own motor. You have the entire text of this conversation in front of you. You are welcome to show me the accusations I missed, and I will either apologise for them, if that is appropriate, or substantiate them. Public apologies to all. I won't, however, apologise for pointing out inconsistencies with someone else's information, or trying to stop the further spreading of misinformation, or guesses passed off as fact. And, I still can't believe someone can read this entire thread, with the statements that DKOV made, and then reference his earlier post, clearly stating that "I started from a Stock 215 HP 3.4L DTC and rebuilt it from the block up with all the goodies...", and NOT see where I am uncomfortable taking him at face value... Take care, all... Jeremy B.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

How much more proof is needed? DKOV has brought the turkey to the table, sliced it, and put it in front of you, yet you refuse to eat? What gives?

Just because the glove doesn't fit doesn't mean he didn't do it.
I say you line em up and let em rip. Winner takes all.

Great job DKOV!!!

Banzai !!!!!!!

quote Originally posted by revin: ...There, now Triad.... have you done a search on the web? I tryed in 3.4dohc and came up with several pages. I got all kinds of info by clicking on THEIR links...try it

Yes I have, but you know what? You can search 100 different ways, on MANY different search engines, and get COMPLETELY different results.

That's why I started this thread. I wanted info others had, so we would all SHARE information...you know, like we're SUPPOSED to on a public forum?

So...how about posting some of your links? How about everyone posting their 3.4 TDC links?

Thanks...

Maybe later this summer,when everything is broken in,we could run the cars(mine;'96 DOHC,5 spd,big air filter/exhaust,air/fuel controller,and yours...)together down the road and do some pulls while in the same gear/rpm.

Well, I have'nt posted in awhile, I've been following for 4 mths now, and I've been around here for a long time. Been reading Mr. DKOV's posts for sometime, and he always has something to say about his TDC, what it is is (Clinton)BS. Today, I just gotta post. Finally someone (Will and Fierotech, are pinning this Mr. DKOV down for what he is. A proud but ignorant owner of a nice (phantom) car. Why not post a pic of your car and/or motor engine bay at least? Geez you post enough.

Your videos are fine, but if your gonna go thru all the trouble of posting 5 videos, why not include a video or two of your car on the dynometer or the tach needle waving @ 7000 rpm? BTW, you ain't near 7000 in the videos.

Fierotech is spot on, you've consistently claimed in your post thread contributions that you did all the work. Now you claim they were done by the previous owner. What proof do you have that any performance mods were ever done? And what didyou actually do yourself to increase the hp of your motor?

You've spent this complete thread back pedalling and stumbling to all these inconsistencies; reason being? Your dynometer post can't be verified. Perhaps a video of your car on the dynometer? Can't be too much to ask.

HP gains of the magnitude you claim to have cannot be explained by you. Pls refer all future inquiries by others about TDC's to Michael Smith's web page http//fiero.cc/fiero-tdc/members/mws/ and refrain and spare us your motor-babble.

You haven't a clue what your talking aout.

To make gains in hp that you claim, would make your car undriveable on public roads. Modest gains by Mike Smith were achieved thru knowledge and skill, that delicately balance performance with driveability. What he has achieved is all your ever gonna get from a driveable NA tdc. I doubt that many on this continent have the talent to produce the equal length headers he so accurately documented on his web page. Any radical cam change to increase hp further would dictate the spending of thousands or more on a sophisticated and totally re-engineered electronic fuel and ignition system for a NA tdc motor.

Sorry DKOV. It's better to be humble about what you don't know.

You can e-mail me or flame me all you want, but you had it coming, a little criticism hurts only if you don't learn from it.

Drive on.

------------------
85GT (daily driver 120,000 miles)
88GT (highly modified sunday driver)

quote Originally posted by JR: To make gains in hp that you claim, would make your car undriveable on public roads. Modest gains by Mike Smith were achieved thru knowledge and skill, that delicately balance performance with driveability. What he has achieved is all your ever gonna get from a driveable NA tdc. I doubt that many on this continent have the talent to produce the equal length headers he so accurately documented on his web page. Any radical cam change to increase hp further would dictate the spending of thousands or more on a sophisticated and totally re-engineered electronic fuel and ignition system for a NA tdc motor.

What I've gathered is that the previous owner had the heads ported and custom cams made. DKOV rebuilt the engine with higher compression, etc.

There's plenty of room for improvement in the stock cams. From what I've heard, they're quite a bit less radical than the factory HO Quad4 cams. Custom cams could easily add the power that DKOV is talking about. Michael smith was stuck making timing changes on the stock cams. Also, he didn't try to balance power and streetability. He made big sacrifices in streetability for power.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-18-2002).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JR:
A proud but ignorant owner of a nice (phantom) car. Why not post a pic of your car and/or motor engine bay at least? Geez you post enough.

Months of following and never have you been to my website? Never have you seen pics of the car? Never have you seen posts from people that have seen and rode in or even driven my car? You want to talk about ignorance and going off on things you know nothing about... Look in the mirror

BTW, you ain't near 7000 in the videos.

Really? So that post I made about NOT going to 7000 rpms in the videos was lost on your 4 months of incredibly perceptive reading?

you've consistently claimed in your post thread contributions that you did all the work. Now you claim they were done by the previous owner.

Wrong, oh perceptive one... I installed parts that were prepared by others. I've always said that. Did you physically construct the last Alternator you installed in your car? Does it mean you don't HAVE an alternator or did the work yourself?

You've spent this complete thread back pedalling and stumbling to all these inconsistencies

Again, your incredible abilities of comprehension stagger the mind... Clarification of incorrect accusations is now "back peddling and stumbling"?

Be careful, if you try and explain what you actually meant, YOU'LL be backpeddling and stumbling too. You don't want that, now do you?

HP gains of the magnitude you claim to have cannot be explained by you. Pls refer all future inquiries by others about TDC's to Michael Smith's web page http//fiero.cc/fiero-tdc/members/mws/ and refrain and spare us your motor-babble.

Again with the incredible perceptions... first off, nice link. NOT. HAve you actually followed that link?

Secondly, how is it that he got 60+ HP from his mods but professionals on this side of the country can't? We North Westerners are just DUMB, huh?

You haven't a clue what your talking aout.

Oh yeah... you've proven that.

To make gains in hp that you claim, would make your car undriveable on public roads.

Wow... that I didn't know. I'm really glad you told me. What does that mean though? Will it not drive at all? Will the Horse Power Police come and get me? That does it, I'm never driving the car again! Wait a second... I probably will.

Modest gains by Mike Smith were achieved thru knowledge and skill, Blah... blah... blah...

Nobody is arguing that he is amazing. I wouldn't call his gains "modest" though... they are pretty great! Strikes me that Mike being the only "person on this continent" that could possible do that kind of work is just... well, stupid. Talk about "amazing claims"

It's better to be humble about what you don't know.

Please, let us all know what Crow tastes like

By the way, this incredibly insightful and accurate post was so important that you posted it TWICE. Just in case someone missed something the FIRST time?

Hey, I appreciate you making me look so good

DKOV -

[This message has been edited by DKOV (edited 05-17-2002).]

Will, perhaps barely driveable would be more in order. Nonetheless, I beg to differ, higher lift cams and/or more overlap along with higher compression pistons, would tax the limitations of the control unit governing spark and fuel injection. All streetable fuel injection (electronic) are highly sensitive to intake pulsations emmited by the use of radical cams. Already marginal head gaskets that contain the stock compression would be stressed accomodating higher compression. The TDC has a well engineered and unique valvetrain, for it's intended purpose. Porting and polishing the heads on this engine would not achieve much cept on the intake side perhaps, with some radiusing of the leading edge of the lower intakes. I am presently working on my own TDC, for a transplant into my 88GT, and I can tell you definitively that the exhaust side requires no porting, these heads will easily flow 650 cfm, more than enough to achieve 300 HP. Example my HO 3.2 flows optimally with a 490 cfm holley, and it puts out 285 hp (with equal length headers and offenhauser dual plane intake manifold)on an engine dynometer. There are no aftermarket cams for the TDC, and any one spending the money for custom cams must know what they are doing; and wouldn't have it done without attending to and matching the electronics and other stressed components with the projected HP. That would cost thousands more than a V8 swap. Currently I am modifying my TDC to accomodate 300HP at the crank, and much in the same manner as M. Smith, his I feel is the best compromise one can achieve for performance and reliability, and a justifiable cost. Remember his readings are with WOT, I believe adapting ones driving (throttle) control would be required anyway with 300 HP on tap.

Respectfully.

------------------
85GT (daily driver 120,000 miles)
88GT (highly modified sunday driver)

Where are the videos that are mentioned several times in this thread? Just curious...

Wow. All I can honestly say is wow. Picture if you can...I'm sitting in front of my computer, my eyes are wide open, and my mouth is hanging open, and I'm not looking at ****. I'm just baffled.

How many different times, or differnt ways, have I stated what my problem, concern, deal, whatever you want to call it, is?

I know I'm long winded as heck...but it's usually because I'm going to rediculous detail to try to be clear about what I'm trying to get across.

Have I said that DKOV can't be getting that kind of power out of a DOHC?

no.

Have I said that a DOHC is a POS with no potential?

no.

Have I said that my anything is better than anyone else's anything?

no.

Have I been calling people names, throwing around accusations other than the couple I laid out in a previous post and do again later in this one?

I don't think I have, but maybe I have. I'm still waiting for someone to show me if I did or not, so I can either apologies, or give my reasons.

Have I been called names, had my "etiquette" questioned, called thick, etc, by people who don't even seem to grasp what it is I'm talking about?

seems like it to me. Though I could be terribly mistaken.

For those who have somehow missed my point thru all of this:

I don't have a problem with anybody getting any amount of HP out of any motor. I don't have a problem with anything that's been done to anyone's motor.

What I have a problem with is misinformation being spread around.

Let me say that again, in case someone can't read bold type.

What I have a problem with is misinformation being spread around.

example...
Saying that all you need to do to run 8K RPM's is mod the ECM. Am I saying that's wrong? no. Am I saying that it comes from a source who later said he himself hasn't done it, and whom I don't think has a reason to say it is a fact? yes.

Why is that a problem? Well, in my opinion, passing off a bit of information like that as a fact is dangerous. What if Joe Dohc just spent $3000 to have someone install a DOHC in his car...he's driving it, he's loving life. He decides to join PFF to see what he can do to get more power. He's been running around bouncing off the factory rev limiter, wishing he could spin it faster. He reads this statement, goes and finds his "computer guru" buddy who knows a guy who can wipe out the rev limiter in his ECM. He goes out and enjoys all the extra revs, fun, and power he's getting, maybe kinda wondering what that extra noise is, assuming there's a noise to hear above that sweet exhaust note. Then, on a second to third shift, we all learn something: The factory cams, timing belt, etc, doesn't like spinning that fast. Floats some valves, maybe things get real bad, and a tensioner or idler lets go...timing belt no longer turning the cams quite like it should, and whammo...12 or so of those 24 valves get intimate with the tops of the pistons, and Joe's walking. Probably crying, too.

You think if Joe had read "I think all you need to safely run 8K RPM's is mod the ECM...but there may be problems, I'm not sure, I've only spun mine to 7500." he just might have been more careful, maybe have a mechanic buddy check things out, listen for little noises like the valve float "buzz" I've heard you get above 7600 with the stock springs?

But that couldn't, wouldn't happen. And if it did, well, it's Joes fault for being stupid, right?

That's an example. Sorry if it's a dumb one, but I think it's pretty clear where my concerns are.

In case anyone forgot, try forgetting this whole post (in which DKOV has given more information than anything else I've seen, and no, I haven't read every post that he's ever made, but do you think Joe did too?) and go back and read some of his other ones. I think there is a reason that someone else mentioned taking him with a grain of salt, things like that. I'm not saying he is totally full of it. Never actually did say he was; what I did do was ask someone to give me a reason I shouldn't think he is. I'm still waiting on that reason, too. If you review my problem, concern, whatever you'll see a dyno chart isn't a reason. Actually, DKOV himself has done more to further that cause in this thread. He has given more details, explinations, etc. than I've seen anywhere else.

Yeesh. All I'm here for is for sharing ideas, maybe learning something, and maybe helping someone along the line. And, I guess, as a side hobby, attempting to keep misinformation down to a minimum. Though, I guess I'll give up on that, since my first attempt at that has been turned into my trying to start some sort of pi$$ing contest, in everyone else's mind. I guess everyone else isn't into the whole "discussing and sharing ideas" thing, or I wouldn't have such a hard time getting this simple point across.

Triad, I've tried to answer your questions. I've said that most of the mods DKOV came up with are valid. I've passed on what I've heard. I've given you a web address for some forums that I've found some good information on. I brought up MWS's website, which seems to be about the best thing out there, as far as options, documenting things (which noone wants to do) and sharing information. I've not said anything is impossible. If you'd like, I'll give you my phone number, and we can talk about it, I'll tell you everything I can about a DOHC, and anything else you ask about. I promise you if you hear it from me, I'll be pretty clear about it, if I know it for a fact, heard it from a good source, or just heard it somewhere. If I'm just making it up, I'll tell you that too. That's just how I am. Heck, give me your number, I'll make it my dime if you want. That, unfortunately, is all I have to offer.

DKOV---know this is going to be real hard for you to believe, but I'm trying to help ya out in a way. I've been trying to tell you if you present what you know in a different manner, people might take you more seriously. Though, I owe ya a big apology. Apparently all you have to do is post a dyno chart and some videos, and most people (at least the ones vocal enough to start name-calling, etc) will take you serious enough for your needs. So, sorry. Keep "contracting your english" as someone put it. Don't worry about the fact that it may severely change the meaning of things if you do. Don't worry about the 2 or 3 idiots that think they need to take you with a grian of salt, or think you're full of it. They're just jealous, thick-headed morons, like me, that don't matter much.

It really is a shame. I consider you to have the potential to be the best source of info on DOHC modifications. But your inconsistencies, way of phrasing things, and lack of desire to document things makes you a lost source. But, you SURE told me, and that's what matters here, folks.

I just still don't understand how noone seems to get what I'm talking about.

Oh, well. I'll just stay confused.

Take care. If anyone else wants more of my opinions, let me know what they are, and what they're about.

Jeremy B.

Trash can time kids. Thanks for ruining a thread that could have contained useful information.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Triad,
Here's a link to a decent 3.4 DOHC forum (about halfway down the page). I lurk on there but have never registered. Not a whole lot on there about performance mods though... The latest craze seems to be to take the 3.4 out and put a 3800SC in.
http://www.efi-street.com/phpbb2/index.php

FieroTech,
I understand exactly what you're saying... but then I am the grain of salt idiot. Not much point in arguing it to the Nth degree though... Those that see what you do don't need it and those that don't probably never will.

DKOV,
Your stories do seem to change and sometimes are a stretch for believability. My perception is you seem like a nice guy, you just seem to like to enhance things a bit to impress people.

Will,
I'd be happy to find the complete stock cam specs so I could put them into Desktop Dyno... Anybody know what they are???

For the record... Like you, "I have a problem with is misinformation being spread around"

Such as...

Saying that all you need to do to run 8K RPM's is mod the ECM.

You've left out my comments about adding different springs and, at the very least, shims.

I guess everyone else isn't into the whole "discussing and sharing ideas" thing

That was my entire attempt. I share my ideas, and you say I'm lying. Well, you said "not that you're lying but..."

You even commented to me how civil I was being despite your rudeness and how my civility would change by the time you were done. You knew exactly what you were doing and why. Don't try and pawn your behavior off on me. I took alot more than MANY would have from you.

I promise you if you hear it from me, I'll be pretty clear about it, if I know it for a fact, heard it from a good source, or just heard it somewhere. If I'm just making it up, I'll tell you that too. That's just how I am.

What you have shown is just how you will use bits and pieces of a conversation to argue your point.

By your own words, you say that if the information comes from a "good source" than it is accurate. Yet, work done by professionals on my motor is invalid simply because you don't "like me" and therefore, am NOT a good source. Apparently, you are as guilty of personal bias as any one of us can be with our sources.

Disagreement does not mean "misleading", false or untrue.

DKOV---know this is going to be real hard for you to believe, but I'm trying to help ya out in a way. I've been trying to tell you if you present what you know in a different manner, people might take you more seriously.

From as long as I can remember... since before I installed my motor through today, I have said things like "from what I am told", "from what I've seen on xxx website", "from what so-and-so tells me" and so on... I have never claimed to be an authority on these or any engine mods. That's not who I am. I just know what I've been told, and like you, when I have "bought into" the integrity of the source, it's Gospel to me. You and I are not any different in this way.

Apparently all you have to do is post a dyno chart...

I was probably never even going to run a dyno until after the Turbo install but because of you and how important it seems to you, I went out and, on a whim, spent the afternoon and a bit over $100 to provide you with what you asked. For that, I'm told, "if it's real"... Proof that it wasn't important to you to begin with.

I consider you to have the potential to be the best source of info on DOHC modifications.

I have given my sources. Those I know. Shared with all of you in threads past. I'm critised by you for "misleading people with facts that I do not know" and yet condemned because I won't comment on facts I do not know. You speak of inconsistencies. I would ask you to read through your posts and see a few of your own.

Bottom line is that, approached differently, we could have made alot more progress by now. I've told you that I have a pretty good pile of information to sift through, from the Previous Owner and I was digging through it to find some answers. You made it clear to everyone that you did not want answers.

I agree... it's a shame. I could have been a descent source. Heck, I don't even know yet if I have all that decking and cam information handy... it's sitting in a box in my closet. Just image if it WAS there and I posted it for all of you. How great would that be?

It is a shame... trully.

DKOV -

PS - Sorry everyone. I shouldn't have let myself get caught up in this. It won't happen again.

[This message has been edited by DKOV (edited 05-18-2002).]

DKOV, Ben's right. This thread is becoming useless and is just flame bait now. Those of us who have been following your posts, your webiste, etc., know what you car is like. We know you try to represent things as accurately as possible and have never once stated you've dyno'ed your engine, but you would like to.

I applaud your work.

As for the flamers? Game's over. Go home.
Heathly discussion, even disagreement is good - but this has become a pissing match.