[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRiAD: * What is the estimated 0-60?
Bone stock, these motors should pull a 0-60 time in the mid to high 5s.
* 1/4 mile?
Bone stock, around high 14s, although I've heard faster. As low as 14.3.
* What all is needed for safe 8000RPM runs?
Bacially, just a modified ECU. Beyond 8000 RPMs you need new vavle springs to avoid float. Remember, these motors are factory performance balanced for higher revs.
* What performance upgrades are available and where?
Nearly any machine/performance shop can provide honed/ported intakes (upper and lower) as well as ported/enlarged throttle body work. There were a few places that specialized in the 3.4L DOHC but seem to be gone now. I've also heard of a company called RSM - http://webhome.idirect.com/%7Ersm1/wbod.htm -in Canada that will do the work. They also do 3 and 5 angle valve grinds and head decking too.
Perforamance cams need to be custom ground and there are nuerous places to do that, check you yellow pages Roller rockers can be had as well to help reduce friction and increase performance.
Underdrive Pulley is debated by alot of people, but I think the work and the dyno showed abuot 8 HP gains so...
You should also consider getting a larger volume fuel pump and a pressure riser/regulator. Some guys even install higher pressure injectors.
Exhaust is important too. Free-flow gives good gains but can hurt you if it's TOO free. I'm running with NO cat as well as a VERY short system. You will see once you et the motor in just how short it really is!!!
You can mess around with the runner lengths to squeeze extra ponies but that only really hits at the upper half of the rpm range, like 4000 and on, but it IS a good increase.
Weight reduction is important too. Because the Fiero does not use the power steering but the motor needs that pulley for the proper belt routing, replacing the entire pump assembly with a custom idler not only reduces weight but reduces drag on the motor.
Just in case you ask why, you must use that pulley and in order to use the power steering pump, you must also keep fluid in it. Pumping fluid against a plugged outlet creates resistance and drag. Especially at higher rpms. That fluid builds major resistance above 5000 rpms. Enough to blow the pulley in fact!
So, at the very least, you will need to make a crossover tube that runs from the pump out to the pump in. That way the pump recirculates the fluid at low pressure so it reduces drag and increases HP.
There are some other additions too... Turbos or Super Chargers for instance. I've got a Turbo kit all laid out for my application which should push me to around 450 HP at only 7 lbs of boost with 14 lbs available!
I know of one company that is building a Spuper Charger kit but I have no idea what kind of final specs it will push out.
Electric accessories are another way to get a few more ponies but again, these are controvercial. An electric water pump will turn back more than 20 HP for instance.
On my Supercharged Durango R/T. I was surprised to learn that the stock engine fan pulls 58 HP straight off the bottom end!!! moral of the story: Rotating mass is the ENEMY!!!
Heat is also an enemy of HP. In a W-body car, where these motors came from, the alternator was devoid of airflow. So the GM engineers installed a hose to route air to it while driving. Simple fix but not the correct one. Luckily, in our Fiero applications, the alternator is now in a better air supported area so that hose and it's bracketry can be yanked.
The down side is that the Coil Pack on the earlier versions is now hidden from air flow. Just like the Alternator on the W-body cars, the Coil Packs need some cooling. I simply relocated them to where the battery once sat behind the rear passenger window. The Battery is now up front under the spare tire.
Not only does this mod look cool, but it keeps the coil packs cool and firing quicker and more reliably. Even the later model 3.4L DOHCs have the coil packs moved up on top but it still could use more air then that!
Speaking of air, some revisions to the air flow into the motor PRE manifold offers some great improvements to the HP numbers. Adding a ceramic tube with a K&N in place of the stock Fiero System is a great start. You definately want to get rid of the Fiero air system.
You can use the Holley Style scoop on the side, but before you waste you time and money, I'd open up that restrictive "air brake" in there and get some REAL airflow in from the side of the car! Do this by using a rotozip and just cut open the air passage to the inside diameter of the opening, rather than that little 1/8 x 1/2 inch opening that's in there! Routing the air in from there, through a K&N then into your ported intake will add 25 HP pretty easily.
Remember, porting delivers power but the power increases EXPONENTIALLY when mated to other ported parts. Don't just port the TB and expect the full gains from it. A ported TB will generate 25 - 50% more HP if it's mated to a ported manifold. And that to a ported lower manifold. And that to ported heads. and so on...
Okay.. I'm rambling but you get the idea. Any other questions you have, just let me know
Originally posted by DKOV: Roller rockers can be had as well to help reduce friction and increase performance.
Huh??? Are we talking about the same DOHC 3.4L vin X motor General Motors made from 91-96?
Remember, porting delivers power but the power increases EXPONENTIALLY when mated to other ported parts. Don't just port the TB and expect the full gains from it. A ported TB will generate 25 - 50% more HP if it's mated to a ported manifold. And that to a ported lower manifold. And that to ported heads. and so on...
Another 50-100 HP from porting??? I've got 2 DOHC motors patiently waiting to be installed, and enough spare parts not to worry about destroying something...if you've got dyno sheets that can convince me you're not off your proverbial rocker (even if it is a roller one in a OHC motor... ), I will port the everloving crap out of EVERYTHING. TWICE. And if I get an extra 100 ponies out of it, I will engrave your name on my intake, as thanks.
DKOV -
I'm seriously not trying to be an a$$, call you a lier, or anything else. If you've got the magical secret to a 400HP DOHC, then you have just become someone to praise and honor, in my opinion. I've just read quite a few of your posts, seen your 322.87 hp figure somewhere, and seen a bunch of people ask about what mods were done to get there...but, not many answers that make a BUNCH of sense to me. I'm sure you've seen this webpage: http://fiero.cc/fiero-tdc/members/mws/intake/index.html If you haven't, check it out. There are actual dyno charts. Pictures of what's been done. Started with a '96 motor, which makes the early motors' intake AND exhaust ports look like straws to begin with...then made a custom intake that makes the term "ported" laughable. Changed cam timing, custom chip, etc...optomizing the motor strictly for high RPM horsepower, disregarding driveability, torque, etc, for good dyno numbers. And he managed to eek out 240 HP at the wheels, he conservatively calls it 270 at the crank; figuring 20% drivetrain losses gives you 300 crank HP.
I own a DOHC. I LIKE the DOHC, or at least the idea of it and the ones I've driven. I've got a lot of faith it can make for a fun ride. I don't, however, think I'm going to port and polish my way to the 300 HP mark. OhHowIHopeI'mWrong.......
Please don't take the usual and expected offense to this...nothing would make me happier than you making me eat my words.
Originally posted by DKOV: ...I know of one company that is building a Spuper Charger kit but I have no idea what kind of final specs it will push out....
If that's Magnuson (supplier to ALL aftermarket Eaton and Lysholm users; Jackson Racing, Lingenfelter, TRD, and others) their TDC SC kit has been permanently shelved.
I am in the process of working out a deal on the manifold design, for use with a new, modified kit. If I can get enough interest, I would be the exclusive distributor of Eaton-based supercharger packages for the 3.4 TDC.
I am seriously interested in other modifications as well.
Can anyone else verify the 8000 redline being OK with stock valve springs? The engine is a '96. I would be increasing fuel as well.
Originally posted by TRiAD: Can anyone else verify the 8000 redline being OK with stock valve springs? The engine is a '96. I would be increasing fuel as well.
Thanks!
Triad---
This is a cut-n-paste from the webpage I quoted before:
"...(4/2001), I finally went back to the same chassis dyno shop in San Jose, the Mustang Ranch. I had .030" spring shims for the valve springs--allowing me to rev to about 7600 RPM before valve float..."
He's running a '96 motor, too. Not my personal experience, so I can't argue it one way or the other. But I have no reason to think he just wrote that for the fun of it.
Jeremy B.
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07:45 PM
lowCG Member
Posts: 1510 From: seattle,WA U.S.A. Registered: Jun 99
The stock cam followers are hydraulic also,to change those to a solid type would help out a bunch with response,as well as possibly reducing pump-up on the top end. I found out that I can keep up with a new Mustang SVT the other day,and that made me quite happy,since my only mods are bigger air cleaner/tubing;fuel controller;2-1/2" exhaust. There has to be a way to put a clamp on the circuit that makes it so the ecm never "sees" the engine going past 6,000rpm. That would allow for the engine to be right in the powerband after an upshift.
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08:45 PM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
First off, I've read that page over and over and am very impressed in what he's getting out of that motor considering he's just playing with the runner length. But then again, that's what GM had set up in their first run 3.4L TDC motors to get 275 BHP. I'm sure a different cam was involved as well.
Still, if you start with the base HP of 215 or 220 (depending on the model year) and add the various upgrades, the CRANK HP totals 322.xx HP. That's just the math. I've said over and over that I have NOT dyno's the car after all the mods. I will compare this dyno to my baseline when I get this done and post them both.
Speaking of Dyno'd results, that page you mentioned is SAE Adjusted HP... at the WHEELS, not the crank. I'm not proporting to get 300+ HP at the wheels of this motor without a charger of some kind.
As for the references to 400+ HP 3.4L DOHC motors... I know of two guys that run Turbos on the 3.4L DOHCs and are getting 450 HP out of them. You know them too
So what am I saying? I'm saying that money = Horse Power and if you want to spend enough and get creative enough, you can put anything you want under the hood. But, for the rest of the world, like me... 300 HP is NOT out of reach with this motor. I know.
80 plus HP by porting the living tar out of the motor, PLUS decking it, PLUS valving it, PLUS enlargind the intake, PLUS cold air/ram air intake, PLUS custom exhaust, PLUS ECU upgrade, PLUS underdrive pulley, PLUS fuel delivery adjustments, PLUS releasing rotating mass and weight... is NOT hard to add. Not hard at all.
The electric drives for the accessories is a "thought" not a practical application yet. A concept.
So, as I said... no offense. I didn't realize that alot of these mods were even available when I started all of this... took me a couple of years to get it all together.
I'll especially prepare a nice copy of the dyno sheet when it's done... just for you
DKOV -
EDIT - removed the reference to "roller rockers" as it was taken way to literally
[This message has been edited by DKOV (edited 05-15-2002).]
I've driven Smith's car when he was doing the cam timing test and talked with him regularly about the intake and dyno results (I did the chip for the car).
My question is: Are you getting 322 normally-aspirated (no NOS, no boost)dyno-verified horses out of your DOHC and using what mods....
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09:38 PM
p4n1c Member
Posts: 1434 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
For some reason this isn't going thru, so I'm trying it in two "installments". Part one:
quote
Originally posted by DKOV: Fierotech:
No offense taken...
I'm glad to hear that. However, that may change by the end of this post...
First off, I've read that page over and over and am very impressed in what he's getting out of that motor considering he's just playing with the runner length. But then again, that's what GM had set up in their first run 3.4L TDC motors to get 275 BHP. I'm sure a different cam was involved as well.
Not just playing with runner length. Cam timing, some chip work. Not sure if he had his custom headers on for those dyno runs or not. Re, the "original" 275 HP. Rumor, propigated by some guy who calls himself "JJ". I'm not saying it isn't true, it may be. But, every time I've heard mention of this rumor, it has always lead back to him, eventually. And I've NEVER seen anything to back it up, real world evidence-wise. According to him, it was detuned in the chip. I don't buy it. I'm a skeptic.
Still, if you start with the base HP of 215 or 220 (depending on the model year) and add the various upgrades, the CRANK HP totals 322.xx HP. That's just the math. I've said over and over that I have NOT dyno's the car after all the mods. I will compare this dyno to my baseline when I get this done and post them both.
Ahhh...it's all clear now. I've got a 382.5 HP 2.8 I built like that. 140 HP, stock, added headers, good for 30 HP, chip gave me another 15, K&N's good for 20, already up to 205. I also got rid of the cat & muffler, went to 3" pipe all the way back, that HAS to give me at least 20. Put one of those tornado things in the intake, there's 10 (plus 5% better gas mileage!!), MSD ignition at LEAST 5, 8.8MM plug wires, 5 more there. Almost forgot the cold air intake, another 10. Larger throttle body, 32 lb injectors, ported and polished everything, added another 50% more power over the 255 everything else brought me up to, so there you go!
I'm sorry. You just can't do the HP by addition game. It doesn't work like that. If it did, we could all just use 10 K&N filters on our cars and run 10's.
Speaking of Dyno'd results, that page you mentioned is SAE Adjusted HP... at the WHEELS, not the crank. I'm not proporting to get 300+ HP at the wheels of this motor without a charger of some kind.
I realize that. That's why I said "240 HP at the wheels, he conservatively calls it 270 at the crank; figuring 20% drivetrain losses gives you 300 crank HP". As far as what you were proporting, it wasn't made clear anywhere that I saw.
[This message has been edited by Fierotech (edited 05-14-2002).]
As for the references to 400+ HP 3.4L DOHC motors... I know of two guys that run Turbos on the 3.4L DOHCs and are getting 450 HP out of them. You know them too
Do I? I've got to ask how you know who I know and don't know. Personally, I know of NOONE sucessfully running a turbo on a DOHC. Not saying there isn't someone out there, I just don't know of one. Closest is ACE's contraption, that is at least assembled, but I've not heard of it actually running, sucessfully. Though I haven't pursued that information too much, either.
So what am I saying? I'm saying that money = Horse Power and if you want to spend enough and get creative enough, you can put anything you want under the hood. But, for the rest of the world, like me... 300 HP is NOT out of reach with this motor. I know.
80 plus HP by porting the living tar out of the motor, PLUS decking it, PLUS valving it, PLUS enlargind the intake, PLUS cold air/ram air intake, PLUS custom exhaust, PLUS ECU upgrade, PLUS underdrive pulley, PLUS fuel delivery adjustments, PLUS releasing rotating mass and weight... is NOT hard to add. Not hard at all.
Nope, adding is easy. You know what else is easy? Passing on information that you aren't SURE is true. Were I without a clue, reading your post, certain things can be taken as facts. I would feel like quite the idiot had I not asked some questions of you, and spouted off to a buddy of mine who's deep into DOHC motors how "a guy I know has a 322.87 HP DOHC" "How'd he do it? You know, 3 angle valve job, porting, underdrive pulleys, roller rockers, stuff like that...".
The electric drives for the accessories is a "thought" not a practical application yet. A concept. Along with the idea of roller rockers...
IT'S an OVERHEAD CAM MOTOR....there are NO rockers to be found in a GM 3.4L DOHC motor, ANYWHERE!!! So, as I said... no offense. I didn't realize that alot of these mods were even available when I started all of this... took me a couple of years to get it all together.
Well, thank you for doing all the reaserch and laying everything out for us. I, as I'm sure many others, appreciate it.
I'll especially prepare a nice copy of the dyno sheet when it's done... just for you
That would be nice. Thanks. And whatever numbers are on it, I will take as fact. And whatever you did to reach those numbers, I would call a "recipie" for that amount of power. Until then, it's all guesses, and speculation. You may find that a lot of people will take you more seriously if you make that clear. Statements like "A ported TB will generate 25 - 50% more HP if it's mated to a ported manifold. And that to a ported lower manifold. And that to ported heads. and so on..." and discussions about roller rockers for a motor that doesn't even use rockers tend to make the reader not buy into a WORD of what you're saying...even if the rest of it does make sense.
DKOV -
Take care, and keep me posted on your progress. I'm definitely waiting.
Originally posted by terryk: I've driven Smith's car when he was doing the cam timing test and talked with him regularly about the intake and dyno results (I did the chip for the car).
My question is: Are you getting 322 normally-aspirated (no NOS, no boost)dyno-verified horses out of your DOHC and using what mods.... (and later he says) Apparently I didn't read close enough.
I did...and I can't find where you said "dyno-verified RWHP" or anything along those lines. Question's still a valid one, as far as I'm concerned. But, we already know the answer...so it's moot.
Jer
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11:20 PM
DRH Member
Posts: 2683 From: Onalaska, WI, USA Registered: Dec 1999
I don't want to start a flame war DKOV, but I too like to keep my grain of salt handy when reading some of your posts.
Chris West has (or had) a running 3.4 DOHC Turbo. West Coast Fiero (Eric) was posting pictures on here of the blown head gasket replacement a month or so ago. I don't know if they ever got it going again or not.
I plan to do a 3.4 DOHC turbo as I get the time and money. The way I get side tracked on other stuff, having it running this time next year would be just short of a miracle. So far my parts collection consists of a 140k mile engine with a blown head gasket and a water/air intercooler system from a Typhoon.
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11:58 PM
May 15th, 2002
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Chris said to me personally, that he was running 450 HP at the crank via his Turbo kit. He was also trying to sell me his design to run on my car. I'm taking him at face value that he is running those numbers.
Of course, it is true that 7 lbs is 50% of base HP so adding an extra 110 HP to 220 would give him around 330 if he did nothing else. He is running 14 lbs of boost which equates to 100% of base HP addind another 220 to his 220, making 440. With motor work, he could very easily be running 450 HP or more.
Posted by Fierotech -- Ahhh...it's all clear now. I've got a 382.5 HP 2.8 I built like that. 140 HP, stock, added headers, good for 30 HP, chip gave me another 15, K&N's good for 20, already up to 205. I also got rid of the cat & muffler, went to 3" pipe all the way back, that HAS to give me at least 20. Put one of those tornado things in the intake, there's 10 (plus 5% better gas mileage!!), MSD ignition at LEAST 5, 8.8MM plug wires, 5 more there. Almost forgot the cold air intake, another 10. Larger throttle body, 32 lb injectors, ported and polished everything, added another 50% more power over the 255 everything else brought me up to, so there you go!
I'm sorry. You just can't do the HP by addition game. It doesn't work like that. If it did, we could all just use 10 K&N filters on our cars and run
Don't take me to mean "random numbers". I did NOT accept the numbers advertised by K&N for their filters or any other manufacturer. ALL of these HP notes WERE verified on a Dyno in my application. Just not on MY car. Each of the hop-ups were dyno'd as they were installed on a 3.4L DOHC motor and the HP changes noted.
Now, barring any major mechanical issues with MY engine, such as toasted rings or something like that... my numbers should be the same. okay even giving or taking 25 HP that still puts me at 300 crank horse power.
I have no problem eating crow. If I'm only putting out 295 HP... so what? If I'm getting 310... so what? If I'm getting the same 322.87 that the factory car was... so what? My point is not that these motors are the very best thing out there and that there is nothing better.
I just want people to know that it CAN be done and it HAS been done.
I do get a little defensive when people say how "weak" these motors are or how "little torque" they have or how they have such limited HP. I especially get agitated when people fail to differenciate the 3.4 Pushrod from the 3.4L DOHC
So, again... no offense taken. Doubt is doubt and that's OK. Many, many people disagree with me about V8s being the WRONG swap for a Fiero. They work great, are fun and many people are enjoying them on the road today, but I just think they are the WRONG motor for this little car. In my opinion, the 3.4L DOHC is the RIGHT motor and IF a guy wants more HP out of it... GO GET IT
If you want to poo poo me and say... "He only has 250 HP", that's cool with me. I don't care. I get to drive it every day
On the topic of rockers... I know that nobody makes a roller kit for this motor. I know that a roller kit cannot be installed directly because of design. On this motor, the cams open and close the valves directly. In retrospect, I don't even know why I posted it other than the fact that I'm doing a roller kit on my Durango right now and I may have just went on auto pilot there for a minute.
In time, I might have even said that pulling the motor fan off the water pump will add around 50 HP too... Of course, that's a V8 thing
This only proves my point... I am not perfect, not are my mods. There are undoubtedly more that you or anyone can come up with that will work better. My way is just "one" way.
Oh and one more clarification... I did not say or mean that a ported TB will deliver 25 - 50% more HP. I said that when you mated a COMPLETE ported system, you can get 25 - 50% more HP out of the TB than if you DON'T.
In other words, if a TB delivers only 10 HP by itself, it will deliver 15 HP when used in a complete system. Similar to ported headers or intake runners or whatever. Efficient by themselves but MORE efficient when used toghether.
I'm totally cool with your questions and comments. No harm taken. Unless you are intentionally trying to be an a$$, I'm pretty easy going.
DKOV -
[This message has been edited by DKOV (edited 05-15-2002).]
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12:48 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Originally posted by DRH: Chris West has (or had) a running 3.4 DOHC Turbo. West Coast Fiero (Eric) was posting pictures on here of the blown head gasket replacement a month or so ago. I don't know if they ever got it going again or not.
Yes they did blow the gasket, and according to Chris a weeks or so ago, it's up and running again.
DKOV -
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12:50 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Originally posted by terryk: So it's not dyno'd yet....
I cut this portion out of my above post to answer you specifically...
"Don't take me to mean "random numbers". I did NOT accept the numbers advertised by K&N for their filters or any other manufacturer. ALL of these HP notes WERE verified on a Dyno in my application. Just not on MY car. Each of the hop-ups were dyno'd as they were installed on a 3.4L DOHC motor and the HP changes noted.
Now, barring any major mechanical issues with MY engine, such as toasted rings or something like that... my numbers should be the same. okay even giving or taking 25 HP that still puts me at 300 crank horse power..."
As I've said all along, I have NOT dyno'd my car yet. It's in the process of getting a Ferrari 355 reboody and it is not int he best of shape to go dyno-ing
When I do get it done, I will post it. Not a problem. Even so, these ARE dyno'd numbers on the same motor. Given that I am starting at the same point as they did, math is math. YES, there will be some variance, but not much.
I would not have posted the 322.87 number if I did not believe it to be absolutely true. I did see the dyno sheets for these modifications. They are accurate. What they actually produce on MY car remains to be seen.
Of course, that's what I've always said
DKOV -
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01:16 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
I can't make any sense of this. Rather than continue, let us know what your results are. I think everyone is hoping you get the results you are expecting.
It's just been my experience that the only way to get that kind of horsepower from a DOHC short of boosting it is to use an LT5 or L37 option.
[This message has been edited by terryk (edited 05-15-2002).]
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01:29 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14284 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by DKOV: First off, I've read that page over and over and am very impressed in what he's getting out of that motor considering he's just playing with the runner length. But then again, that's what GM had set up in their first run 3.4L TDC motors to get 275 BHP. I'm sure a different cam was involved as well.
I know this has been beaten to death, but I have to add my opinionated $0.02 here as well.
[rant]
Apparently you don't understand the significance of camming. He didn't just "play with runner length--Oh yeah, and some cam timing changes, too". The cam timing changes are responsible for the MAJORITY of that power gain. He retarded the exhaust cam 10 degrees and retarded the intake cam 18 degrees. That's an 8 degree reduction in lobe center angle. That's a !@#$load more than "playing with runner length". That's why I asked you what your cam specs are, since you claim to have a limited edition engine. Runner length changes CAN NOT deliver that kind of power gain. A power gain of that magnitude is mostly the cam.
Wow...OK. So there seems to be MUCH speculation here. On all sides.
How about this... What aftermarket performance items are abailable, where from, and how much?
Has anyone tried any that they particularly liked or didn't like? What were they?
How about stock 3.4 TDC performance? Anyone have a dyno sheet or track times?
DKOV, LOVED your videos...I'm holding my breath waiting for the ones when you actually rev it up. Shifting at 4K is a tease. Can't wait till it's broken in.
THANKS all, and let's just try to keep it clean.
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09:04 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
You are absolutely correct and I didn not mean to belittle anything he's done. As I said before, I am impressed with what he's done there and hope to someday get involved in that level of development for my car. I just don't have the resources to get into custom cam grinding on my own, so it will have to wait.
As for my CAM specs, I don't know. As I've said before, I did not start this road of motor enhancements... yes, I did all the porting and stuff, but the vavle grind and decking was done by the previous owner, a GM tech and Track official at PIR. He also did some cam work but I have NO IDEA what was done. Other than he said "it was done" and you can certainly feel it above 3500 on.
Runnere lengths are important too. Not the only factor, true, but WHERE the power hits is effected here as well. This is something else I'd like to explore, but I can't stomach the idea of that "box" on top of my motor
I hesitate to metion steps that were taken BEFORE I had possession of this motor for the simple fact that I cannot answer these kinds of questions because I don not have adequate documentation or knowledge of what was done BEFORE I owned the car.
This is exaclty why I have avoided the issue of CAMs. Decking is pretty self explanitory as well as vavle jobs. He also told me that the "stroke was differnet". After a year of research I've concluded that this is another way of him saying the motor was decked. His point was that the compression was up a point or so and that is a result of decking.
So go ahead and rant... I probably would too. I'm sorry a I cannot make you feel better about all of this. It's not my job but I wish I could. Still, I wonder why it is SO important for some of you that these motors can NOT make up to 300 HP?
I would be the first to argue that a 240 ZX, for instance, cannot make big HP, but I bumped into a guy at the Friday Night Drags that is carrying around a Dyno Sheet saying his has nearly 800 HP!!!
Or argue that there is no functional, road worthy 450 HP Turbo 3.4L DOHC... when both ACE and West Coast Fiero has driven and competed with them. True, both BLEW THEM UP at one point or another
Really... no ill feelings on my part. I'm trying to see it your way and understand.
DKOV -
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12:56 PM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
That list I posted originally, is all available currently, right up to the electric options. These are all things that I have done to my car, as I've said before. The performance numbers are "fairly" accurate as well. NEVER a Guarentee on those kinds of things...
RSM will do the Decking and Vavle jobs for you if you want, but they run over $2000 for the total package. Seems like there was a compnay called Ram Air Technologies that did this kind of work too, but I can't find a listing for them anywhere, any longer.
I'll go through my receipts for the contact info for the shop that did my intakes and TB. The Headers and exhaust were done locally so you could have them done here or find a performance hot-rodder recommended shop local to you.
For that matter, they could do you intakes too, probably.
Total cost for Porting/Polising and TB should run around $600 or so. Give or take.
Pulleys run $100 - $150. Custom idlers are cheap, less than $100 and I can send you a design for replacing the PS pump.
Exhaust work ran me around $400 from the collector back. All custom of course. The Headers I didn't pay for since I had a buddy that I race with do the work for me in exchange for work I did for him, so...
Fuel Pressure riser cost me I think under $200 bucks. I put new injectors in too, at $116 each x 6.
That's what I can remember off the top of my head... I hope that helps
With these mods you can expect to get Horse Power increases well more than 2HP!!! maybe even 5 if you run on a cold day
As for more videos... I'm scouring my little DV collections looking for car footage. Lots of pics of my two boys though...
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01:10 PM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
It is "said" to be the baseline dyno for a stock 3.4L DOHC although it has been pointed out that it looks more like a 3.4L Pushrod motor... I'd have to agree.
SAE Adjusted HP
DKOV -
[This message has been edited by DKOV (edited 05-15-2002).]
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02:57 PM
lowCG Member
Posts: 1510 From: seattle,WA U.S.A. Registered: Jun 99
Oh,cams,huh? That is probably the biggest factor alone in helping these motors make power;the stock heads/ports flow A-PLENTY. Sometime you'll have to get out the degree wheel,and dial indicator so we can find out what you gots.
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03:31 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Check out http://www.60degreev6.com for some hop up info. 300HP is doable out of a NA 3.4DOHC, I believe, without a cam change. But that's probably pushing it. Custom headers could really make a difference, I've heard.
Chris West's turbo 3.4DOHC is a good example of a 400+HP turbo application.
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04:03 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14284 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by DKOV: Still, I wonder why it is SO important for some of you that these motors can NOT make up to 300 HP?
I would be the first to argue that a 240 ZX, for instance, cannot make big HP, but I bumped into a guy at the Friday Night Drags that is carrying around a Dyno Sheet saying his has nearly 800 HP!!!
I'm not saying it can't make 300 HP. I'm saying that it can't make 300 HP NA without cam or cam timing changes. Further, I'm saying that those camming changes will be responsible for most of the power gains.
So next time you've got your engine out, do like LowCG says, get out the degree wheel, dial indicator and go to town.
Does your engine idle smoothly?
Was it a 240Z otr a 240SX? If it was a 240Z, then it probably had a V8 under the hood (Although I guess just maybe it could have had an RB26DETT).
That dyno sheet looks like a Pushrod 3.4 dyno graph. It's max torque comes on low and is about 200, while its max power is only 140's.
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05:09 PM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Originally posted by Will: So next time you've got your engine out, do like LowCG says, get out the degree wheel, dial indicator and go to town.[B/]
I will be taking the motor out at the end of the summer for sure, possibly sooner. I want to replace the rings and pistons for a possible NOS shot. At the very least, I'm preparing it for the Turbo install. I don't want to make the same mistakes that both ACE and WCF made...
[B]Does your engine idle smoothly?
No to bad. It does "lope" a bit and FieroJunkie, when he drove it, commented that it sounded like it rough at idle, but I didn't think so. In restrospect and now that you ask, it does not really like to idle at anything less than 1100 rpms.
Was it a 240Z otr a 240SX? If it was a 240Z, then it probably had a V8 under the hood (Although I guess just maybe it could have had an RB26DETT).
I don't know jack about 240s at all but he did say it was "the Japanese version" motor. I know it was NOT a V8 though. He draggs it every week down there then parks it. I can't fathom owning a car and NOT driving it other than in a straight line! He keeps trying to get me to drag my Lotus Esprit Turbo or my Fiero/F355 but I'm a road course guy myself.
That dyno sheet looks like a Pushrod 3.4 dyno graph. It's max torque comes on low and is about 200, while its max power is only 140's.
Could be... I got it off this forum and they said is was a DOHC dyno but it looked way to low for a stock DOHC motor... still, I thought it was interesting none the less. Thought I would post it... for what it's worth
DKOV -
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05:48 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14284 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by DKOV: No to bad. It does "lope" a bit and FieroJunkie, when he drove it, commented that it sounded like it rough at idle, but I didn't think so. In restrospect and now that you ask, it does not really like to idle at anything less than 1100 rpms.
I don't know jack about 240s at all but he did say it was "the Japanese version" motor. I know it was NOT a V8 though. He draggs it every week down there then parks it. I can't fathom owning a car and NOT driving it other than in a straight line! He keeps trying to get me to drag my Lotus Esprit Turbo or my Fiero/F355 but I'm a road course guy myself.
Hmm... If it needs to be at 1100 to idle well, then it's had a healthy dose of cam. Whether that's regrind (lift & duration changes), or timing changes remains to be seen.
A 240sx is a 90's car. A 240Z is a 70's car. They're pretty easy to tell apart. I suppose a 240sx with a built SR20DET could put well over 400 to the wheels.
I like roads that curve myself, but they don't keep any in Florida.
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11:56 PM
May 16th, 2002
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Originally posted by Will: Hmm... If it needs to be at 1100 to idle well, then it's had a healthy dose of cam. Whether that's regrind (lift & duration changes), or timing changes remains to be seen.
I managed to get the swap all together on on the road not TWO DAYS before the car had to clear DEQ and that Idle made me VERY nervous... In Washington State, the idle MUST be below 1100 to PASS. Plus, I am not running a CAT and my car is VERY loud as the exhaust is 2.75 inches and about "that" long to the muffler! They could fail me for the Idle easy, if not the lack of CAT or the noise volume...
But... I tweaked with the idle and got it to idle "fairly" well at 1000, loped alot but not enough to completely die and they never looked for the CAT. The volume didn't bother anyone either. So it was all up to the SMOG counts... PASS!!! Not just by a smidge either, WAY low on the count!
Whew... THAT was close
A 240sx is a 90's car. A 240Z is a 70's car. They're pretty easy to tell apart. I suppose a 240sx with a built SR20DET could put well over 400 to the wheels.
It must have been an SX then... looked more modern than a 70's car. In fact, it looked 90ish to me. I'll ask him on Firday
I like roads that curve myself, but they don't keep any in Florida.
Triad....man you kill me! You have not even STARTED? on you new engine (do you even have it yet?) yet here you are getting all hyped up getting specs. Seems like you would have done that first! I just think it is funny, Course I just got my 3.8SC and I am looking all around for "stuff" to do to it as well ! have fun and save money ! we will need some later with our swaps!!!
Originally posted by revin: sorry guys I just had to cut in here .
Triad....man you kill me! You have not even STARTED? on you new engine (do you even have it yet?)
Yup, I have the engine, and we're just getting started. I'm redoing all the suspension and everything at the same time, so it'll be a long process.
quote
yet here you are getting all hyped up getting specs. Seems like you would have done that first!
Yeah, I got some first, but there's just very few sources on this, and wanted to see if any new ones could come out of the woodwork. I had to move ahead on this sooner than I would have normally, since I blew the 2.8 and there was an available 3.4 locally (with most of what I need).
quote
I just think it is funny, Course I just got my 3.8SC and I am looking all around for "stuff" to do to it as well ! have fun and save money ! we will need some later with our swaps!!!
Yeah, tell me about it.
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08:49 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Still *damn* impressive! Depending on what conversion factor they used, you could be over 300 at the crank. In any case, you're in breathing distance!
Look at that TORQUE CURVE! FLAT from 3k to 6.5k! Pulling *hard* at 7grand! (still 200lb-ft)
Very, very nice. Basically N* power out of the 3.4.
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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05:23 PM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Don't want you to wait TOO long for the "others" to chime in...but I've only got a few minutes, not the time for my usual novels.
First of all, I've not been a "naysayer". I've NEVER said you can't get a certain amount of HP out of a certain motor. Heck, with enough $$, enough bottom end work, and enough boost, you can get 1000 HP out of a 2L 4cyl. What I HAVE been saying, is that, from what I've seen so far, you haven't given any sign that you had a clue what you're talking about when it comes to your own motor, and things have been phrased "misleading". Thank you for your clarification on the ported TB, etc...THAT makes sense, I'll give you that. But your original post definitely read the way I took it. Sorry for misreading.
What concerns me is the seeming lack of knowledge you seem to have about your own motor, but your willingness to tell everyone what they need to do to get X amount of HP out of theirs.
Like I said earlier, if you've done what you say you did, then, awesome! I humbly bow down to you. If that is a legit dyno pull from your car, congratulations! That IS the kind of power I'd like to see a DOHC put out. But...I don't see it happening with just porting and decking. Oh, and a pressure riser, $700 worth of injectors, and "weight reduction" in the form of removing a power steering pump. What I'm challenging you to do is one of three things: 1) share your secret with the world, tell us all exactly what's been done to you motor so we can all sing your praises while we break motor mounts. 2) Be selfish, tell us all it's none of our damn business, your personal secret, or 3) say you honestly have no clue what has been done, and no way to find out, and anyone else who wants the same results is pretty much on their own, and the fact that you previously made it sound like you can do it with bolt ons and porting was possibly pretty far off base. Because if you read back over, that's what it sounds like.
I'm impressed with ya, you haven't gone off on a silly rant about all this, and haven't been pissy about it, and have stuck around. Impress me more, and start adding some "maybe's" and "sometime's" and "usually's" to your posts. Comments like 7lbs of boost will give you 50% more HP. It doesn't always. Sometimes less, sometimes more. Every motor is different. This isn't an exact science. Comments like all you need to spin 8K safely is a modded ECM. Conflicts with what I've heard, from several sources. But hey, I'm the type of guy who tends to take the word of someone who's actually driven a car, and told me exactly what happened at what RPM's, and has never been shy about telling me when he does or doesn't know something. But, maybe he was lying. Maybe you do run your car at 8K all day long with no valve float. Maybe you've got stock springs, maybe not. Do you know? If you do, I'm interested. Learning from other people interests me. Teach me. I'd rather learn what "is" rather than what "may be" presented as what "is". If you *think* you can run safely at 8K, but tell me you CAN run safely at 8K, I'm not gonna be real happy when I tear something up at 7900RPM's cause I didn't know what that funny buzzing noise was behind me. Conversely, if you KNOW you can safely do it just by doing a simple mod, then that is good info, cause I may not have thought of that on my own. That's what these forums are about, sharing ideas, knowlege, and facts. That's a lot easier when you can tell which is which, though.
I gotta go...sure everyone's dissapointed...(ya, right...)
Sorry if something doesn't "read" right here, I'm rushing. But, if anyone wants clarification on what I'm saying, if it's too hard to grasp, etc., LMK. I can elaborate, give examples, etc.
Ya, that was brief. Later... Jer
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07:30 PM
88formula Member
Posts: 2361 From: Worcester, MA Registered: Oct 1999
Skipped over the long thread and found the dyno chart. All I have to say is that’s dam impressive for a DOHC 3.4-liter v6. What ever you did to that motor you did it right.
------------------
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08:57 PM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Originally posted by Fierotech: Don't want you to wait TOO long for the "others" to chime in...but I've only got a few minutes, not the time for my usual novels.
First of all, I've not been a "naysayer". I've NEVER said you can't get a certain amount of HP out of a certain motor. Heck, with enough $$, enough bottom end work, and enough boost, you can get 1000 HP out of a 2L 4cyl. What I HAVE been saying, is that, from what I've seen so far, you haven't given any sign that you had a clue what you're talking about when it comes to your own motor, and things have been phrased "misleading". Thank you for your clarification on the ported TB, etc...THAT makes sense, I'll give you that. But your original post definitely read the way I took it. Sorry for misreading.
What concerns me is the seeming lack of knowledge you seem to have about your own motor, but your willingness to tell everyone what they need to do to get X amount of HP out of theirs.
Like I said earlier, if you've done what you say you did, then, awesome! I humbly bow down to you. If that is a legit dyno pull from your car, congratulations! That IS the kind of power I'd like to see a DOHC put out. But...I don't see it happening with just porting and decking. Oh, and a pressure riser, $700 worth of injectors, and "weight reduction" in the form of removing a power steering pump. What I'm challenging you to do is one of three things: 1) share your secret with the world, tell us all exactly what's been done to you motor so we can all sing your praises while we break motor mounts. 2) Be selfish, tell us all it's none of our damn business, your personal secret, or 3) say you honestly have no clue what has been done, and no way to find out, and anyone else who wants the same results is pretty much on their own, and the fact that you previously made it sound like you can do it with bolt ons and porting was possibly pretty far off base. Because if you read back over, that's what it sounds like.
I'm impressed with ya, you haven't gone off on a silly rant about all this, and haven't been pissy about it, and have stuck around. Impress me more, and start adding some "maybe's" and "sometime's" and "usually's" to your posts. Comments like 7lbs of boost will give you 50% more HP. It doesn't always. Sometimes less, sometimes more. Every motor is different. This isn't an exact science. Comments like all you need to spin 8K safely is a modded ECM. Conflicts with what I've heard, from several sources. But hey, I'm the type of guy who tends to take the word of someone who's actually driven a car, and told me exactly what happened at what RPM's, and has never been shy about telling me when he does or doesn't know something. But, maybe he was lying. Maybe you do run your car at 8K all day long with no valve float. Maybe you've got stock springs, maybe not. Do you know? If you do, I'm interested. Learning from other people interests me. Teach me. I'd rather learn what "is" rather than what "may be" presented as what "is". If you *think* you can run safely at 8K, but tell me you CAN run safely at 8K, I'm not gonna be real happy when I tear something up at 7900RPM's cause I didn't know what that funny buzzing noise was behind me. Conversely, if you KNOW you can safely do it just by doing a simple mod, then that is good info, cause I may not have thought of that on my own. That's what these forums are about, sharing ideas, knowlege, and facts. That's a lot easier when you can tell which is which, though.
I gotta go...sure everyone's dissapointed...(ya, right...)
Sorry if something doesn't "read" right here, I'm rushing. But, if anyone wants clarification on what I'm saying, if it's too hard to grasp, etc., LMK. I can elaborate, give examples, etc.
Ya, that was brief. Later... Jer
damn - very well said
------------------ ( the above was the thoughts, views, and opinions of a disgruntled Fiero mechanic, and do not express or imply those of West Coast Fiero, Fieros West, or any other organization - just that of this poor bastard ) :) Eric Nelson Technician, West Coast Fiero 310-305-4111
Roller rockers can be had as well to help reduce friction and increase performance.
So far my parts collection consists of a 140k mile engine with a blown head gasket and a water/air intercooler system from a Typhoon.
yet here you are getting all hyped up getting specs. 
