Gases spewed by the 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines and the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens in Washington State formed particles high in the upper atmosphere, blocking sunlight and cooling the climate for 10 of the last 20 years.
The burning of the Rain Forest in Central and South America over the last 20 years has created more than twice the same amounts of pollution as produced by automobile/truck exhaust in the last 50 years, contributing to an overall global warming trend.

Now if one has that much difficulty presenting facts to support an issue .......

A few comments:
1) the reason I disconnect the EGR is twofold, one it gives better throttle response in normal driving, two I like to eliminate one more variable that could fail
Also, I have run tens of thousands of miles with egr disconnected without burning a piston. A clogged cat is a more likely culprit....

2) while I leave PCV operational on all street cars, the drag cars I work on keep the intake valves vastly cleaner with breathers only. We take them apart and look at them when we freshen the motors up.

3) I say, if you can still pass emissions with the EGR disconnected and no cat, then what's the big deal.

Bruce

Hey Will!
Don't you understand the English language?
Trigger did not ask if he should, he asked HOW...
Now, if he had asked SHOULD, then I would of asked how the car was to be driven, off road or street, and if he said street, I would of said no, it isn't worth the hastle...

But again, if he wants to disconnect the polution bull$hit, then he has every intention of doing so, no matter what you or I say about it...

As for me, I disconnect what I want and leave what I want...
I don't ask how or why, I just please myself and let everyone else do as they please...

As to the efectiveness of the bull$hit, why do cars pass testing without the stuff?

"What are you wanted for?"
"Rape, arson, vandalism, and rape..."
"Wait, you said rape twice..."
"I like rape!"

Hey Trigger!
What do you think of the topic?
It happens everytime the subject comes up...
If you do decide to disconnect anything, don't tell anyone, and try to make it look stock, like using cut pieces of welding rod to block vacume lines to disable the Thermac, and block off plates to disable the EGR, and don't forget to remove the cat guts, but leave the shell...
A tune up and a warm engine will pass emissions most every time, and a few bucks given to the examiner ensures it!
crash...

Originally posted by Fierowrecker:
Hey Will!
Don't you understand the English language?
Trigger did not ask if he should, he asked HOW...
Now, if he had asked SHOULD, then I would of asked how the car was to be driven, off road or street, and if he said street, I would of said no, it isn't worth the hastle...

It is my opinion that he should know the whole story before he does any such thing. A good bit of what you posted is either incorrect, not entirely correct, or just "things that make ya go 'Hmmmm.....'".
I set the record straight.

But again, if he wants to disconnect the polution bull$hit, then he has every intention of doing so, no matter what you or I say about it...

Yes, he may have already made up his mind to do it, but he should know the full story of what he's doing and what he may screw up and why before he does it.

As to the efectiveness of the bull$hit, why do cars pass testing without the stuff?

Because a lot of shops can't afford the good equipment that can actually measure levels lower than "chopped up dinosaurs spewing from the tailpipe".

Hey Trigger!
What do you think of the topic?
...to disable the Thermac...
crash...

Hey Trigger!
Do you really want to take the advice of someone who keeps talking about disabling a system the car doesn't have?

im just really glad up here in the great white north we dint have smog checks(YET)!!

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fun is rowin throo my 5-speed

quote Originally posted by Will: Originally posted by Fierowrecker: [b]Hey Will! Don't you understand the English language? Trigger did not ask if he should, he asked HOW... Now, if he had asked SHOULD, then I would of asked how the car was to be driven, off road or street, and if he said street, I would of said no, it isn't worth the hastle... It is my opinion that he should know the whole story before he does any such thing. A good bit of what you posted is either incorrect, not entirely correct, or just "things that make ya go 'Hmmmm.....'". I set the record straight. Yes, your opinion, as wrong AS MINE... But then, who says he will listen to the full story? As to a straight record, even I let others make their own mistakes... But again, if he wants to disconnect the polution bull$hit, then he has every intention of doing so, no matter what you or I say about it... Yes, he may have already made up his mind to do it, but he should know the full story of what he's doing and what he may screw up and why before he does it. Again, your opinion and conjecture... Removing and disabling the polution control will not burn up engines, or cause the earth to turn into a cinder... Most of the government mandated equipment is INOP at wide open throttle, or idle or both... The ECM does have enough range to compensate IF the sensors are good... And engines have burnt because the sensors were bad, but all the polution control was still in place... As to the efectiveness of the bull$hit, why do cars pass testing without the stuff? Because a lot of shops can't afford the good equipment that can actually measure levels lower than "chopped up dinosaurs spewing from the tailpipe". Depends also on the engine, as I have found time and again, the polution control equipment that the feds demand is only there because the feds can't repeal bad laws even when the manufacturer proves the equipment does no good, but better engineering is proven to work... Hey Trigger! What do you think of the topic? ...to disable the Thermac... crash... Hey Trigger! Do you really want to take the advice of someone who keeps talking about disabling a system the car doesn't have? Yes, the V6 does NOT have Thermac, but the Iron Puke does, and why not talk about ALL the systems??? Like having low compression ratio to lower the oxides of nitrogen, oh wait, the EGR has that under control...

So trigger!
Again, do what you want and feel free to experiment and learn...
Going by what others think and "feel" are right will only keep you from doing what you want to do, go faster!

[This message has been edited by Fierowrecker (edited 03-05-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Will: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Fierowrecker: [b] [b]Now, your EGR is a bit easier... A block off plate will remove a potential vacume leak, and restore the missing power your engine can produce... An EGR equipped engine isn't missing any power because EGR is turned off at wide open throttle!!!!! The EGR is just like the PVC system, useless at wide open throttle, and only works at idle and cruse... As to leaning out and burning pistons, the O2 sensor will correct for any changes, and besides, the EGR and PVC are INOP during WOT conditions... Why is there an EGR system? To "cool" the combustion temperature, and reduce oxides of nitrogen (polution), but again, it is useless at WOT... Compare the time the average engine spends at WOT versus the time it spends going down the road with EGR on. That's when EGR is working. [/B]

if WOT is an acceptable engine condition then the engine should be designed to run in that condition for any length of time. If you don't need/have EGR at WOT and the ECM can supply enough fuel to the engine at WOT and at peak operating rpm then it should never need EGR and never run lean because the ECM can supply the needed fuel to make the system run at the correct A/F ratio.

EGR just makes our engine run like smaller engines when we are not at WOT but there are too many variables to make it an ideal solution. In the end, designing an engine to have EGR does more bad to the motor then good. A better solution is exponential throttle response or shutting down cylinders which is what the next generation of engines are going to be doing.

By exponential throttle response I mean that is your foot is half way down, you are at only at 1/4 - 1/3 throttle, but WOT is WOT. Maybe use a 1/COS() function. Again this is only doable on electronic throttle control equipped engines.

Finally as a driver, I'd prefer a clean efficient engine, if the goverment is worried about air quality so much then mandate that every new building construct must have some sort vegetation on it's property. We should see a tree on every street corner. They clean the air naturally. Oh but then the government would have to spend money raking leaves off the streets so it's cheaper for them to just pass legislation onto automakers that we end up paying for at the dealer's showroom.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fierowrecker:
Yes, your opinion, as wrong AS MINE...
But then, who says he will listen to the full story?
As to a straight record, even I let others make their own mistakes...

If he doesn't listen when he has correct information, that's his problem.
Let's think about this for a second: If he asks how to remove the stuff, then he obviously does not have a suffcient understanding of the systems and their components, because in the presence of such understanding, the problem of how to remove them is trivial.

Again, your opinion and conjecture...
Removing and disabling the polution control will not burn up engines, or cause the earth to turn into a cinder...
Most of the government mandated equipment is INOP at wide open throttle, or idle or both...
The ECM does have enough range to compensate IF the sensors are good...
And engines have burnt because the sensors were bad, but all the polution control was still in place...

The BLM adjustment window is less than 20% either direction. You really have a thing with the government, don't you? Pollution controls may have been bad in the '70's, but technology has advanced to the point that modern engines are at once more powerful, more efficient, more driveable, and cleaner than pre-smog engines ever were. This advancement is entirely because the federal government mandated pullution controls in the first place. Time has gone by, technology has advanced, and pullution controls are no longer the bane that they once were.
In fact, you may not even see a measureable increase in performance by removing them (provided they were working correctly in the first place).

Depends also on the engine, as I have found time and again, the polution control equipment that the feds demand is only there because the feds can't repeal bad laws even when the manufacturer proves the equipment does no good, but better engineering is proven to work...

Again with the feds thing. Get over your resentment. The end result of pollution controls is better cars.

Yes, the V6 does NOT have Thermac, but the Iron Puke does, and why not talk about ALL the systems???
Like having low compression ratio to lower the oxides of nitrogen, oh wait, the EGR has that under control...

He asked about the V6, not the iron duck.
I think you realize that lowering compression for the sake of NOx is just silly.
All right, lets talk about ALL the systems. Junk your fuel injection. After all, EFI was only developed to make engines capable of dealing with federal pollution regulations. Rip it out and put a carb in its place; go back to the days of calibrated gas leaks.

So trigger!
Again, do what you want and feel free to experiment and learn...
Going by what others think and "feel" are right will only keep you from doing what you want to do, go faster!

Obviously what you feel is right will make the car its fastest. Even though you've demonstrated an obvious and irrational resentment of the federal government and its hand in the development of automotive technology over the last 25 years.

The fact of the matter is that modern pollution controls don't affect the car's performance much if at all.
If you still want to get rid of them, do it. Just do it by making an informed choice rather than basing your decision on myth and hype.

quote Originally posted by Will: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Fierowrecker: [b]Yes, your opinion, as wrong AS MINE... But then, who says he will listen to the full story? As to a straight record, even I let others make their own mistakes... If he doesn't listen when he has correct information, that's his problem. Let's think about this for a second: If he asks how to remove the stuff, then he obviously does not have a suffcient understanding of the systems and their components, because in the presence of such understanding, the problem of how to remove them is trivial. Again, your opinion and conjecture... Removing and disabling the polution control will not burn up engines, or cause the earth to turn into a cinder... Most of the government mandated equipment is INOP at wide open throttle, or idle or both... The ECM does have enough range to compensate IF the sensors are good... And engines have burnt because the sensors were bad, but all the polution control was still in place... The BLM adjustment window is less than 20% either direction. You really have a thing with the government, don't you? Pollution controls may have been bad in the '70's, but technology has advanced to the point that modern engines are at once more powerful, more efficient, more driveable, and cleaner than pre-smog engines ever were. This advancement is entirely because the federal government mandated pullution controls in the first place. Time has gone by, technology has advanced, and pullution controls are no longer the bane that they once were. In fact, you may not even see a measureable increase in performance by removing them (provided they were working correctly in the first place). Depends also on the engine, as I have found time and again, the polution control equipment that the feds demand is only there because the feds can't repeal bad laws even when the manufacturer proves the equipment does no good, but better engineering is proven to work... Again with the feds thing. Get over your resentment. The end result of pollution controls is better cars. Yes, the V6 does NOT have Thermac, but the Iron Puke does, and why not talk about ALL the systems??? Like having low compression ratio to lower the oxides of nitrogen, oh wait, the EGR has that under control... He asked about the V6, not the iron duck. I think you realize that lowering compression for the sake of NOx is just silly. All right, lets talk about ALL the systems. Junk your fuel injection. After all, EFI was only developed to make engines capable of dealing with federal pollution regulations. Rip it out and put a carb in its place; go back to the days of calibrated gas leaks. What the fu(k??!!?? Fuel injection a polution item??!!?? Fuel injection has been used for performance sence the thirties/fourties, and heavilly used in World War II on aircraft to develop the 1500+ HP per engine so our fighters could go over 375 to 500 MPH with propellers!!! In fact, WWII was the birth of hot rodding in America, with superchargers, turbo chargers and fuel injection on car engines, done by average Joes AND Janes who now had the knowledge!!! So trigger! Again, do what you want and feel free to experiment and learn... Going by what others think and "feel" are right will only keep you from doing what you want to do, go faster! Obviously what you feel is right will make the car its fastest. Even though you've demonstrated an obvious and irrational resentment of the federal government and its hand in the development of automotive technology over the last 25 years. The fact of the matter is that modern pollution controls don't affect the car's performance much if at all. If you still want to get rid of them, do it. Just do it by making an informed choice rather than basing your decision on myth and hype. I base my decisions on fact, knowledge (mine and other peoples), and experience (again, mine and other peoples)... [Music=God Bless America] I do not resent our government, I resent the fact that their decisions are based on false and misleading information provided by minority special interest groups with lots of money to lobby the government into making poor choices for the American people... Like closing national forests to human contact because some endangered species MIGHT reside in the area, and when proof can't be found, it gets planted to make it LOOK like it is inhabited by the endangered species...(Thank God that was discoverd and sounded a wake up call to our reps!) I resent the fact that newly elected people do not keep campain promises to rally change to the bad laws... I am proud to be an American, and I reserve all rights to be held by the PEOPLE of America, and not priveledge to be dispensed by burocrats... I am ready to fight and die for our great nation, and that includes having to kill the enemy when necessary! But I will uphold the laws of GOD and America, and until I find in the Bible where it says "Thou shalt not speed, I will build my cars to go fast! [/Music] No, I am NOT a member of the Michigan millitia, OR running for congress ... [/B]

im kind of relieved we have the malitia and still a little weary of them....actually im more worried about the position of me in the middle of them and the govt...

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fun is rowin throo my 5-speed

Uh, you've never been on a motor design team, have you?

I've driven a 1/cos throttled car (newer Z3s, hop in) It sucked. Drivability just horrible. Give me lin following anyday.

Best!
Ben

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: if WOT is an acceptable engine condition then the engine should be designed to run in that condition for any length of time.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by Fierowrecker: What the fu(k??!!?? Fuel injection a polution item??!!?? Fuel injection has been used for performance sence the thirties/fourties, and heavilly used in World War II on aircraft to develop the 1500+ HP per engine so our fighters could go over 375 to 500 MPH with propellers!!! In fact, WWII was the birth of hot rodding in America, with superchargers, turbo chargers and fuel injection on car engines, done by average Joes AND Janes who now had the knowledge!!!

The systems you're talking about were mechanical fuel injection. EFI is a very different beast for one simple reason: it has a feedback loop. Hilborn and Kinsler setups only run well at WOT, because they don't have vacuum dependent fuel metering. Rochester units have vacuum dependent fuel metering, but are still relying on "blind" calibrations which have no provision for AFR to impact fuel delivery.

Yes, electronic fuel injection was developed to allow cars to meet ever more stringent federal pollution regulations. It just so happens that it is also infinitely superior to carbueration for combining driveability, economy, clean running, and of course power in one engine.

[Music=God Bless America]
I do not resent our government, I resent the fact that their decisions are based on false and misleading information provided by minority special interest groups with lots of money to lobby the government into making poor choices for the American people...
I resent the fact that newly elected people do not keep campain promises to rally change to the bad laws...

I am proud to be an American, and I reserve all rights to be held by the PEOPLE of America, and not priveledge to be dispensed by burocrats...

I am ready to fight and die for our great nation, and that includes having to kill the enemy when necessary!

<nods of general agreement>

Not all powers belong to the people. By living in this country you tacitly agree to give up some of your powers of self-determination in order to live in a safe and orderly society. The degree to which people are willing to give up some of their rights to the government is disturbing at best... but neither is freedom a license for chaos, and all things, including idealism, should share moderation.