I was wondering how to eliminate the PCV, EGR, Fuel Evap, and other emissions equipment on my 88 V-6/5 speed.

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Honestly officer, I was just keeping up with the flow of traffic. I know there aren't any cars in the area, that's how far behind I am.

Why?

I'd like to know as well....what about sticking some breathers on each valve covers like the v8 guys?

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UNDER CONSTRUCTION

Rebuilt 2.8, Zr-1 Cowl
Induction Hood, 1/4 Window scoops,
removed spoiler, awaiting blue paint...

the url was too long for me to write out & post correctly. Do a search-tt&q: search terms-"egr epa"-parameter-"entire thread"
You'll find what you need there , or directions to one that will work. Hmmm, why does the term 'mwbackus' suddenly come to mind??
(Now, I'm gonna run & hide before Orief sees this)

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 03-03-2002).]

I want to eliminate them so it's one less thing to break or leak.

You will need to purchase, install, and program then tune , an aftermarket ECM like the Electromotive TEC-II.

Otherwise the engine will run lean and burn a hole through your pistons (I've seen this on a blocked-off EGR Fiero with stock ECM.)

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Artherd- if anything the car will run richer without the egr system. it should only run lean if the system is improperly blocked. also, how much would something like a tec-II cost? i'd like to either install a new ingnition or a completely new computer, but i'm just a high school kid on a budget. by the way I love the silver formula. how's the engine swap coming along?

what do the coolant lines going into the TB do?

i was thinking about valve cover breathers. they not only look neat, but then the pcv system isn't plumbed into the intake hose.

The coolant lines to the throttle boby are for cold weather use. They keep the butterfly valve from freezing in position. Some members have removed them and claim to have had no problems to 30 below.

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Here's a link to the explanation of why it's not a good idea to just block off the EGR without reprogramming the ECM.
http://www.mindspring.com/~fierosketch/osg/EGR.html#info6

What about the PCV system...couldnt we just use little breathers on the valve covers?

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UNDER CONSTRUCTION

Rebuilt 2.8, Zr-1 Cowl
Induction Hood, 1/4 Window scoops,
removed spoiler, awaiting blue paint...

First of all there is no performance advantage to unhooking anything/everything. To have fewer parts to fault is more realistic reason but I still would not remove anything. A slight vacuum in the crankcase helps to ensure better ring seating. Pressure on top and vacuum on the bottom allows the ring design to 'be all it can be' with regard to ring seal. I did disconnect my TB lines as I live in south Florida, but if you drive the car in 10 below zero degrees Fahrenheit weather, you may get icing (enough to cause a problem), depending on elevation and humidity.

I just removed my throttle body tubes, tonight. It'll be nice to have them out of the way.

The PCV system doesn't use any horsepower, and it helps to stop an oil film from getting all over your valve covers.

The fuel evaporative system doesn't use any horsepower, either. And, in 28 years of driving and messing with cars, I've only had one evap canister that *might* have been bad. Seems to me like it's not worth screwing with.

EGR. I'm not gonna disconnect mine. And if it breaks I'll fix it. Aside from having to pass Atlanta emissions, I believe that Ed Parks has stated that every 2.8 that he's ever seen that had burned pistons had been run with the EGR disconnected. Good enough for me.

In the early 70s, emission controls were cobbled together and hung all over the engine. They really strangled performance. And (IMHO), carburetors are so imprecise, that they cannot be reliably tuned for clean emissions and decent performance.

Technology and electronics are wonderful things, though. The thing about emissions controls on EFI cars is that the entire engine was designed to operate with them. Removing them will require that a new chip be programmed, at the very least. Not doing at least that much will probably cause you to lose performance, if not damage your engine.

Just my $.02.
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Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-03-2002).]

After you do this, Please post the pic's of the piston(s) with the holes burned into them! try to document the miles your engine lasted.

The last engine I pulled that had the EGR blocked off had a hole in number 5
The guy figured he got around 15,000 miles on the engine before it went to hell (had 78,000 original)

The EGR thing has been beaten to death. EGR sends burnt gasses to the cylinders. Burnt=NO O2, less fuel burns, cooler combustion chambers, good for the Feds, good for your motor.

Banzai !!!!!!!!

Hey man, the EGR system dumps burned (inert to combustion, no fuel, no O2) gasses into the intake, effectively lowering the displacement of the engine. Smaller engines use less gas/air.
So less fuel is dumped in.
If you block the EGR, the space the burnt gasses displace will be taken up by oxygenated air now, and you get a *very* lean, and very *hot* combustion situation. (way too hot, and a radical drop in power too.)

You could replace the PCVs with breathers, but it'd prolly cost more than new PCV valves

The best performance change you can make will be replacing the stock catalytic converter (restrictive, HOT, and prone to explodeing its guts) with a new model high-flow cat.

This will make your sound better, grab 5-10hp or so, and make your car run cooler and more reliably.

The electromotive system I belive runs around $1,200-1,500, not exactly chump change But it's the ONLY way to elminiate the EGR properly (and withought a loss in HP due to running lean, engines make their best power a little tiny bit rich actually.)

Also, an MSD6-AL ignition (and coil) will do wonders for your car. Can be had in the $50-100 range if you get a used one from someone going to an electromotive or such

Thanks for the compliments on the silver car, I'm having a lot of fun with it!! Still a fair bit left to go, gotta get my -AN hoses for the fuel and oil systems, get the hubs and spindles machined, get the new suspension links&rods, and get new axels machined up.... Hopefully by this summer! (PS: I'm only 21, us young guys can still do cool stuff!)

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by trigger: Artherd- if anything the car will run richer without the egr system. it should only run lean if the system is improperly blocked. also, how much would something like a tec-II cost? i'd like to either install a new ingnition or a completely new computer, but i'm just a high school kid on a budget. by the way I love the silver formula. how's the engine swap coming along? what do the coolant lines going into the TB do? i was thinking about valve cover breathers. they not only look neat, but then the pcv system isn't plumbed into the intake hose.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Someone said that the Hypertech Perf. chip removes the EGR system from the ECM. If thats the case couldnt you safely block it off at that point?

now does this apply to the duke too???cause i did the egr block off and have 2 open element breathers on the valve cover..(the ones from apc at your local parts store they fit right in the grommets and they match my air filter ) i also cut the the filter housing down so now i have an open element k&n ,,removed ac stuff no cat straight throo muff and it really runs great and sounds freakin mean as hell! but any way could i richen it up a litlle to compensate by a adj. fpr?????

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fun is rowin throo my 5-speed

quote Originally posted by Nbodyraser: now does this apply to the duke too???cause i did the egr block off and have 2 open element breathers on the valve cover..(the ones from apc at your local parts store they fit right in the grommets and they match my air filter ) i also cut the the filter housing down so now i have an open element k&n ,,removed ac stuff no cat straight throo muff and it really runs great and sounds freakin mean as hell! but any way could i richen it up a litlle to compensate by a adj. fpr?????

Did the same thing to my 84(no cat,noegr, and a k&n,). I also opened up the air intake a bit. Not triping any codes either. I would bet a gain of 5hp or so. Throttle response is much better also.

I'm grasping at straws here, but I've also seen a burnt v6 with (I belive) a Hypertec chip. I am therefore speculating (with a cappital 'S') It may delete the EGR solonid's *function*, but not the dip in the fuel map that the EGR compensates for.

I really would leave the EGR alone unless you're willing to spend the $ to do it properly (Read: electromotive.)

Unless you like replacing engines (more expensive than even the electromovite

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

How about a different perspective?

You will be polluting the environment that we all share unnecessarily - leaving a legacy of environmental damage for future generations. Even if it is legal, it doesn't make it right.

What's wrong with fixing it correctly.

quote Originally posted by fierodave: After you do this, Please post the pic's of the piston(s) with the holes burned into them! try to document the miles your engine lasted. The last engine I pulled that had the EGR blocked off had a hole in number 5 The guy figured he got around 15,000 miles on the engine before it went to hell (had 78,000 original)

Well, I'm up to about 10k miles on mine.

when i thought i was going to keep my 2.8 i was planning on getting these PCV breathers

i got one for my blazer at champion auto parts for $7, i cant remember what brand they are though. they had 2 differant colors, blue and red. i was going to get the red ones for my fiero. i think it would really dress up the engine.

lou_dias- did you eliminate the fuel evap system with the egr then? and I run 91 octane most of the time, but I do have access to 110 octane if I want to pay extra for it.

the car has a test pipe and since the motor is out of the car I figured I'd take car of this stuff while it's easy to get to. what does the line going the the trunk side valve cover to the bottom of the upper intake do?

I'd still like to know if theres any downsides to running breathers instead of PCV valves. Would there be a noticible power loss? danger? or just the fact that its more effecient to use the pcv?

quote Originally posted by Kasdan: I'd still like to know if theres any downsides to running breathers instead of PCV valves. Would there be a noticible power loss? danger? or just the fact that its more effecient to use the pcv?

PCV stands for POSITIVE CRANKCASE VENITLATION
PCV is GOOD for your engine.
Don't F@#$ with the PCV system and everything will be cool.

If you look on your engine you will see a tube going from the rear valve cover to the intake manifold. You will also see a tube going from the front valve cover to the air inlet tube UPSTREAM of the throttle body.

At part throttle, the manifold is at high vacuum. Air (and oil/fuel vapors) is pulled from the rear valve cover into the intake manifold and burned inside the engine. Clean air to replace what was drawn out comes from the tube attached to the front valve cover. Thus a steady flow--positive ventilation--is maintained through the entire crankcase.

You will gain nothing from changing it, and it isn't costing or hurting anything the way it is.
Leave it alone.

Similarly for EECS (Evaporative Emissions Control System). It operates only at part throttle, and doesn't hurt the engine's performance in any way. The EECS system makes your car safer by cleaning flamable vapors out of your gas tank. Don't mess with it either.

The only thing which isn't great for your engine is EGR.
As has been said many times, improperly removing EGR is worse for your engine than leaving it.
In order to properly remove EGR, not only must you remove the hardware, but you must reprogram the ECM. Proper reprogramming of the ECM is significantly rarer than improper reprogramming of the ECM. Not only must the code which activates the EGR be removed, but the fuel tables, timing tables, and possibly BLM limits have to be changed because the stock computer will run the engine lean and with too much timing if these items are not changed.

Please note that all three of these systems operate ONLY at PART THROTTLE. They have NO EFFECT on full throttle performance.

If you want full throttle performance, follow the advice given in a previous post: high flow cat, strong coil, ported stock manifolds, etc.

quote Originally posted by trigger: lou_dias- did you eliminate the fuel evap system with the egr then? and I run 91 octane most of the time, but I do have access to 110 octane if I want to pay extra for it. the car has a test pipe and since the motor is out of the car I figured I'd take car of this stuff while it's easy to get to. what does the line going the the trunk side valve cover to the bottom of the upper intake do?

all I mentioned is all I did.
I should note that the full power gain wasn't realized overnight and that it actually happened over a period of 2 months and that coasting in gear below 1800rpms was shaky but again it smoothened out over time. So I feel the computer adjusted it's settings over time. this is an 88GT 5 speed.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 03-04-2002).]

Burnt piston with the proper Hypertech chip is pure BS. I had mine (Stage III) in one car for about 10 years and no piston was burnt. So I guess they did fix up the fuel map. I have that one now in my 3.4 too. I'll tell you in 10 years the results on that. Now, on a stock car?? That I don't know.

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Alex4mula
:) Red-Original Owner & Yellow AP-1/94 with PM (:

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I'd still like to know if theres any downsides to running breathers instead of PCV valves. Would there be a noticible power loss? danger? or just the fact that its more effecient to use the pcv?
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The PCV Valve is very important!

If you Run a breather instead of a PCV valve you won't be able to control your idle speed!

It would idle around 2,000 rpms with just a breather!

Don't disagree until you go out and pull your pcv valve and run the car without one!

The PCV valve is nothing short of a controled vacumn leak! that's why it's important to replace a PCV with a quality GM part, and not from some "Help!" parts section!

Get the correct PCV Valve for your application!

So ~NO~ you can't run a breather filter in place of a PCV valve. (unless you like a high idle)

FD

quote Originally posted by fierodave: ________________________________________ I'd still like to know if theres any downsides to running breathers instead of PCV valves. Would there be a noticible power loss? danger? or just the fact that its more effecient to use the pcv? _______________________________________ The PCV Valve is very important! If you Run a breather instead of a PCV valve you won't be able to control your idle speed! It would idle around 2,000 rpms with just a breather! Don't disagree until you go out and pull your pcv valve and run the car without one! The PCV valve is nothing short of a controled vacumn leak! that's why it's important to replace a PCV with a quality GM part, and not from some "Help!" parts section! Get the correct PCV Valve for your application! So ~NO~ you can't run a breather filter in place of a PCV valve. (unless you like a high idle) FD

I should clarify something here...
The connection from the front valve cover to the air intake tube can be replaced with a small "breather" (filter) without any detrimental effect. Why you'd want to is beyond me... as I said, you won't gain anything from it.

What Fierodave is talking about is replacing the connection from the rear valve cover to the intake manifold with a filter.
I think that he's made one critical mistake. IF YOU DISCONNECT THIS TUBE, YOU MUST PLUG IT OR YOU WILL HAVE A LARGE VACUUM LEAK. Large vacuum leaks cause high idles. Common sense strikes again

Also, if you replace the rear valve cover connection with a filter, there will be no vacuum source ventilating the crankcase, destroying the function of the PCV system. With no positive ventilation, fuel, oil, and corrosive blowby vapors buld up inside the crankcase. You don't want that stuff in there. Just leave the PCV system alone.

quote Originally posted by trigger: I was wondering how to eliminate the PCV, EGR, Fuel Evap, and other emissions equipment on my 88 V-6/5 speed.

Hey Trigger!
Are you confused by all the Bull $hit answers??!!??

The truth is, you can do any thing you want to do...

To remove the PVC system, you need to plug the hose barb the pvc valve goes to, and install breather caps in the valve covers...

The PVC system only sucks at high manifold vacume, such as idle and cruse, otherwise it does not do anything, especially at wide open throttle...

As to providing better cylinder sealing, when it is needed, such as WOT, it is INOP...

Why is there a PVC system, because it sucks the fumes and gasses from the crankcase and burns them, there by reducing "polution"...

Now, your EGR is a bit easier...
A block off plate will remove a potential vacume leak, and restore the missing power your engine can produce...

The EGR is just like the PVC system, useless at wide open throttle, and only works at idle and cruse...

What it does is allow burnt gasses and carbon particles to flow back into the cylinders, and if you doubt the carbon particles, pull the EGR and tap on the pintle as the service manual calls for to clean the EGR valve, large chunkies will fall out...

As to leaning out and burning pistons, the O2 sensor will correct for any changes, and besides, the EGR and PVC are INOP during WOT conditions...

Why is there an EGR system? To "cool" the combustion temperature, and reduce oxides of nitrogen (polution), but again, it is useless at WOT...

The fuel evap system just keeps gas vapors from exscaping into the atmosphere...
It does this by using a vacume leak to draw the vapors into the manifold and burning them...

If you want to know the real cause for burnt valves and pistons, it is VACUME LEAKS!
And the biggest source of vacume leaks is the polution crap tacked onto the engine...

Another system you can remove is the thermac system...
Everyone I know is adding cold air intakes, but none of them speak of removing the heat riser and temp valve...
If they are not removing them, then the cold air intake is useless, as the temp valve is making the engine get it's air off the exhaust manifold...

As to the cat, you already have yours cut off, right?
You do know that the cat converts hydrocarbons into sulfur products, and in the atmosphere, it is converted by sunlight and moisture into sulfuric acid...
You remember acid rain? HMMM, wonder where that came from...

So stand by for the flames Trigger! As many people here do not like it when people like you and I talk about removing polution controls off our engines...

As to it being a federal offence, and only intended for off road vehicles, you and I know, the polution systems of the 70's never did work right and only cause the engine to burn more fuel than needed...

Oh ya, almost forgot to mention, when Mt. Saint Hellen blew it's top, it released more polution than all motor vehicles ever have or ever will produce. Sence then other volcanos have blasted off, and released huge amounts of polution, and yet our cars are causing global warming... NOT!!!

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crash... The Fierowrecker

[This message has been edited by Fierowrecker (edited 03-05-2002).]

so putting the egr blockoff plate on like i did my duke and its well sealed btw ..this WILL or WILLNOT cause it to run lean beyond the range of the o2 sensor????and if it does ...would bumping up the pressure a few pounds cure the lean and richen it some???oh yeah and where exactly is the fpr on my 88 duke?????

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fun is rowin throo my 5-speed

uugh, I give up. Do whatever you uneducated idoits want to your motor.

Just don't come crying to me when your motor siezes and say "OMG Fieros suck!"

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

so just what is your goddamn background hot shot??????us uneducated idiots would like to know???ARTHERD = LIMPWRIST!btw my new a/f meter will tell the tale either way i want to know.and then i will take appropriate measures to cure it. i asked questions for answers and now im an uneducated idiot.im really glad noone on this board would like any kind of tech info here intsead they just get put down for there lack of knowledge!really ****in nice!

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fun is rowin throo my 5-speed

quote Originally posted by Nbodyraser: so just what is your goddamn background hot shot??????us uneducated idiots would like to know???ARTHERD = LIMPWRIST!btw my new a/f meter will tell the tale either way i want to know.and then i will take appropriate measures to cure it. i asked questions for answers and now im an uneducated idiot.im really glad noone on this board would like any kind of tech info here intsead they just get put down for there lack of knowledge!really ****in nice!

Easy there, Killer.
A couple of posts up I explained why these systems are in place, why they do more than just control pollution, and why you should leave them alone if they're working correctly.

Fierowrecker contradicts everything I said and you take him at his word rather than I. Why? The only reason I can think of is that he's telling you what you want to hear.

Ask your questions before you make up your mind about the answer you want.
Sometimes I don't even know why I bother.

now see thats more what i was lookin for the 2 contradicting points and the reason behind each one ....sorry i got a little fired up but nobody could come to middle ground so to speak....as for my engine im going to do some work to richen the mix to get me by while im looking into reprogrammed ecm..now does this only require a chip to be burned or a new ecm????i want to eliminate all this (personal pref)but i also want it right!

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fun is rowin throo my 5-speed