#40.

(I just love that little guy!)

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Try to keep up!

80'sBOY, I know where you are coming from but I don't know that I would have stated it as you did.

You are very brave, I would have been flamed to high heaven if I'd have said that.

I hesitate to respond to this thread because I don't really feel like being flamed by everyone and his brother. I have nothing against stock Fiero owners and even those with bigger V-6's in their cars. These guys are all potential customers of the future.

As we know.... there are quite a few SBC owners who are active members of this list. Yet we hardly ever hear from any of them having the kinds of problems you see posted here daily by the owners of smaller engined Fieros.

Before you guys get started flaming me, take a look at something I've been watching for more than a year. The thing that I've noticed alot is also true again today as I write this. The vast majority of the posts are about people having problems with their Fieros that would have been eliminated with a SBC swap.

Try this, on any given day just review the "subject lines" of all of the posts for that day and you'll see that a large portion of them are having serious problems.

I hope no one will be offended but... As many know, I've been doing Fieros for 15 years now and many times I've asked myself the question "If you weren't doing V-8 Fieros and if they weren't so much fun to drive, would you still be a Fiero enthusiast?" I truely believe that if I was not doing V-8 kits (& someone else was), I would still be a Fiero owner. I'm sure however that I would have sought out and bought a V-8 conversion kit forom whoever was making them. I just cannot see a situation where I would have spent the last 15 years driving Fieros that had such a wide ranging potential for problems that I see daily on the various Fiero lists and forums.

Code 32, EGR, ECM, ignition modules, bad brakes, loosing races to ricers, rod knocks, leaky distributors, cracked exhaust manifolds, leaky valve covers, being beated by economy cars, bad alternators, engine fires, waterpumps, bad clutches etc., I must confess that I don't know how many of these problems I would have put up with before I moved on. If it wasn't for the fact that a good quality V-8 swap eliminates almost all of the inherant Fiero problems, I really think that I would have moved on by now.

I don't mean this to sound harsh, but this is just the way it is. You guys that hang in there and takle problems today and tomorrow are my heros.

My props go out to you guys that are the root and the future of the Fiero community. You work hard at getting and keeping your Fiero reliable and running good. Internet groups like this are a wonderful resource to help keep all those cars running as good as they do. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to keep these cars going if you didn't have a Forum like this as a helping hand?

Archie

PS, I see one guy who is saying that his 6 banger SC (yet to be completed) will beat someone elses' (yet to be completed) V-8 car. Now either this guy hasn't driven a V-8 car yet or he's building one hell of a SC car. However, I wouldn't brag that a car that hasn't been completed yet will beat a car that hasn't been started yet.

Just MHO.

Archie

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Just how fast do you want to go?

I did not know that installing a V8 would cure clutch problems.

I have to agree with 80's on this one. While my dad was pastoring in Clarkston, MI a GM excutive attended our church. He helped design the iron duke (he said one of the projects he devolped was a 450+hp turbo 4bangger that went to 185 mph on the salt flats). He told me father that the first 15 2.8s they tested ALL blow up with thier testing. The GM exectutive was against the V6 fiero.

[This message has been edited by stingant0 (edited 12-06-2001).]

that 6 banger SC will be a 3800 SC, I believe. And he'll be helped by his buddy who has an L67 powered Lumina running 12's...

As far as people not having as many problems when they put in a V8.. I'd gather to say that's because most people who di a v8 kit install a freshly rebuilt 350 with new accesories etc etc when they do the install.

No flames intended...
V8 conversion is still a minority. And I would hope that Archie conversions, that seem well-engineered and put together, aren't having problems. All Archie installed engines use the same GM engineered parts right? Well, they all fail. And I would think that most of the conversions are less than 15 years old and under 100,000 miles. Not saying Archie doesn't have them. And hey they have a decent Tech person to call directly anyway.

Any engine will make HP if you build it right. I just don't believe you need to add 150lbs doing it.

As for the 2.8s blowing up... Yup, I'd say any of the externally balanced varieties like to blow up. Well, the 60*V6 has advanced quite a bit.

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Its never going to be finished...

[This message has been edited by Joe Torma (edited 12-06-2001).]

quote Originally posted by WKDFIRO: Another contradiction is a Fiero GT with an engine transplant equalling power and performance and NOT old technology. If you are putting a small block in, you are putting in old technology. Thats the wonder of SBC in today's world of DOHC and variable intakes. What other performance car other than the Vette is putting out obscene power numbers with pushrod technology? Look no further than Viper which takes a VERY old school approach to making power: If you can't beat them with technology CRUSH THEM with cubic inches. Those engines don't have to wait to wind up for torque like VTECs. You have torque RIGHT F***KING NOW. No waiting, no lines. (except the two black ones you can lay down behind you.) So don't down old technology and embrace the small block at the same time. Sometimes the old ways can be best for the speed you apparently need. Give props. That POS V6 was the most powerful engine IN THE FIERO'S CLASS AT THE TIME. We are talking about the MR-2 (before superchargers and turbos) and the CRX. Lets not forget that it did have the bragging rights for power in its time. Something that the magazines never seemed to take notice of. .

I think what 80's boy was trying to say is that new tech works well with 4's and 6's, and can make a v8 even better. But if you're going to go old tech, you might as well get the cubes of a v8.

quote Originally posted by WKDFIRO: People who are so fanatical about ultimate horsepower make me nervous. Ive seen too many of them wrap themselves around poles. Which I believe is natural selection at work except when it takes out innocent drivers. I know because there have been times when I should have been "selected" during some of my races. And Im sure the 80's knows that there will ALWAYS be someone faster on the street. But he just doesn't sound like it in his first couple of posts. He sounds like too many muscle car boys AND rice boys around here that have more horsepower than common sense. Fieros didn't come with V8 for many reasons; the average insurance rate for one thing. You don't want to price it for a certain target audience that would then be screwed by the insurance companies. The engineers were already playing around with several engine combinations as well as building techniques. (Like an ALL aluminum space frame...mmmmmmmmmm!) Another contradiction is a Fiero GT with an engine transplant equalling power and performance and NOT old technology. If you are putting a small block in, you are putting in old technology. Thats the wonder of SBC in today's world of DOHC and variable intakes. What other performance car other than the Vette is putting out obscene power numbers with pushrod technology? Look no further than Viper which takes a VERY old school approach to making power: If you can't beat them with technology CRUSH THEM with cubic inches. Those engines don't have to wait to wind up for torque like VTECs. You have torque RIGHT F***KING NOW. No waiting, no lines. (except the two black ones you can lay down behind you.) So don't down old technology and embrace the small block at the same time. Sometimes the old ways can be best for the speed you apparently need. Give props. That POS V6 was the most powerful engine IN THE FIERO'S CLASS AT THE TIME. We are talking about the MR-2 (before superchargers and turbos) and the CRX. Lets not forget that it did have the bragging rights for power in its time. Something that the magazines never seemed to take notice of. I know the power of a V8 in a Fiero because I drove California Kid's Fiero during development here in California before he got it. At the time I had an 87 coupe. How hard was it to start my engine that night after driving the V8? It was brutal. You'll have no argument from me that a Fiero with a V8 is the ultimate. With a power to weight ratio near Viper level, you do have the advantage of surprise. And I would get a V8 if I won the lottery. But ONLY if its built the same as California Kid's by Keith Huff. Otherwise I would have just as much fun with a 3800 SC from Chris West. Damn! Nuff said! Except that this was a great thread.

Anthony, I suppose you didnt see the small block on the engine stand in the back of the shop + Keith's old mock up car from his Northstar project ( naughty things are to be had at West Coast Fiero )

mmuuhahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

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Technician, West Coast Fiero
www.cwestco.com
310-305-4111

V6 -vs- a V8??? as long as the V6 is on the 2.8 block i know i can win. let's not talk about 2 cars that haven't been built yet, like archie said.

oh by the way, MY new engine???

355 stroker with dart 202 heads, roller rockers and a B+M blower just to start.

my younger brother and i are pulling it from his 56 chevy show car this weekend. he's got a fresh small block 400 going in instead.

the HP??? 400+

bring it on.

I am overdue for a field trip out to Marina Del Rey for a social call...perhaps this weekend?

I don't believe for one minute that all of my Fiero problems would magically disappear with the install of a V8. I would still have headlights that will eventually go bad, power windows slowing down, dim gauge lights, clutches and hydraulics that would go out plus all the other things, Archie, that you mentioned going wrong with V6s. They can happen to 15 year old V8s just as easily. Emissions, especially out here in California would be very interesting. Though I have never had to smog a V8 out here, I would imagine that it would simply freak out the local grease monkey smog mechanic.

That there are some people who love their Fieros who have NO plans for V8s OR even V6s is amazing. Its not their race car, its just their mode of transportation that they really love. The true enthusiast, in my view, is the original owner that still has his 4 cyl Fiero and still drives it every day.

As for the 15 2.8 engines that blew up...they do have this thing called Test to Fail, where they will intentionally run it until it breaks to find out where the weaknesses are... and see if that failure is consistant through out the production line. One would surmise that a new engine would go through several of those tests...so I wouldn't doubt that an engineer would witness all sorts of engines failing.

[This message has been edited by WKDFIRO (edited 12-06-2001).]

quote Originally posted by 80's BOY: 355 stroker with dart 202 heads, roller rockers and a B+M blower just to start.

Right...lets go.
Why didn't your brother put a big block in? I mean that's the logical replacement engine for it?

[This message has been edited by Joe Torma (edited 12-06-2001).]

quote Originally posted by 80's BOY: V6 -vs- a V8??? as long as the V6 is on the 2.8 block i know i can win. let's not talk about 2 cars that haven't been built yet, like archie said. oh by the way, MY new engine??? 355 stroker with dart 202 heads, roller rockers and a B+M blower just to start. my younger brother and i are pulling it from his 56 chevy show car this weekend. he's got a fresh small block 400 going in instead. the HP??? 400+ bring it on.

I hope you spring for a tranny rebuild with that engine. Good Luck...

boy THAT'S no lie. as far as my brother?? i don't know about the 400 SB. he started working at a speed shop and picked up some bad habits like taking out perfectly good engines and re-chroming perfectly good parts. perfectionist i guess. my dad and i were both very surprised he wanted to swap engines again. the car was completely finished.

Geez...sounds like a nice car! My dad's got a 57 with a LT1.

You always want more.

I am seriously considering going the SBC route.I have a complete 350sbc sitting on the bench in my garage just waiting to be assembled.It's been honed,fluxed,head ported,forged pistons,forged crank,etc,etc....So the engine is not the problem.I've been fantasizing about this for about 5 years,but

1:I dont think it will pass smog test here.
2:I can't afford to have Archie do the master build.So I would probably do it myself.Unless I could get a break on install.
3:I have the Automatic,so I will need to beef it up.

Would 2 cats solve the emissions problem?
Would getting the basic install from Archie be in my price range?
I could get the other stuff that goes with it later,it's getting it in the car that's hard.

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85 GT Turbo intercooled

I've heard directly from 2 Archie kit builders (PFF members too!) that they deluxe kit is worth the price. Especially when compared to the time spent searching for places to buy the stuff! It'll save a lot of time!

Oh,yeah;forgot to mention.It would be carbed and not FI.

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85 GT Turbo intercooled

yeah, but searching for the right parts is half the fun, right??? i am getting the basic kit because:

1. it's a weekend project

2. i tossed the a/c compressor

3. i like getting things delivered to my house from Summit and Jeg's

4. it really keeps your brain sharp to have to figure things out sometimes.

Really 80's boy?? Hope it goes that easy. Let us know when you start so we can all judge the difficulty. I think it will take more then a weekend to get the other parts you need. I am very interested to see how you make out.

I don't even think about a V8 because there isn't a type-certificate in this country for a V8 fiero!
So lets have a look at a nice 3.4 DOHC or 3.8 SC
I have had it (sometimes, like NOW!) with the standard 2.8.....quite reliable but it quits when you least expect it.... ....I hate that.

80's BOY,
Get you some.
V8 that is, then you CAN kick a$$ and take names on the strip. You will be a Big Dog in the league of fast cars. For what you appearantly are looking for, the benifits out weigh the downfalls with a v8. While the v8 does create different problems they are also Much easier to work on. If your old engine is in need of replacement your going to have to drop a chunk of change anyhow so put in a bigger, better, proven tougher engine back in it's place.

I bought Archie's economy kit and I enjoy shopwork as a hobby so I enjoyed puttin' in a v8. It took me more than a weekend to do the swap the first time but then I was in no hurry and wanted the job done MY WAY.

Do it Your Way one of us has got to come up with a better way and somebody has the best way to date.
Keep improvin' your movin'.

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thanks Butter, that's the support i needed. BTW i'm not trying to do the swap in one weekend. i figure my car will probably be apart for quite some time (months) so there's no rush. that's the advantage of a weekend toy.

Ya still have to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

As I have implied and so shall you prove, there will always be a bigger dick on the streets.

Put a Viper GTS on the street it will rule until a Viper GTS-R comes up. Then that one will be beaten by a Hennessy Venom 650. Every year gets more powerful than the last.
It wasn't so long ago when the ZR-1 and the Porsche 959 (and the rest) were considered the most powerful street cars in the world with 400 hp.

And because you left yourself SO wide I just have to take a little joking jab at ya!

What do you mean IF you were in the third grade?

If you had made that third grade remark in front of the wise guys in my club, they would have just eaten you alive! LOL

Seriously though, I understand what you are saying. Given that the Fiero is in the third grade, the Vette would still be in grammer school compared to the Ferraris, Porsches, Saleens, Lambos and McLarens. The 80s were just recovering from the smog pumped abominations of the 70s. The giant leap backward in power outputs then would have stunted anyone's "growth."

I have pointed out in the past and will do so again. How many 88 MR-2s do you see with V6s put in them. How many with V8s? While we are at it, how many cars that ended production in the 80s are STILL EVOLVING into more and powerful cars almost 15 years later?

Sounds like you found out how to use that funny pump, third grader.

Make us proud.

quote Originally posted by 80's BOY: BTW saying the 2.8 was the biggest motor "in its class" is not a real good comment to defend the Fiero by. i mean, if i'm in the 3rd grade and i have the biggest dick in my class....it's still a little dick to everyone else. so there.

So you are saying you need a v8 to make up for a lacking in that dept.?

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'88 Hawaiin Orchid Coupe - [url=http://www.fierolinks.f2s.com/index.shtml[/url]

Ive been following this post since it started and have been thinking about why I chose a v6 over a 350.

I purchased my fiero with the full intention of doing a engine swap.A 350 was my original plan.Once I started planning it out I soon relized it was going to cost money and didnt look like much fun - adapters and custom cv joints and grunt work.

reason number 2 was as a traditional pontiac fan I dont like SBC. If Archie or somebody made a kit to put my 400ra3 in there id be the first at his door.

To sum it up it didnt seem like much of a challenge to put a chevy in there. Ive had a fun time setting up my v6 turbo - After years of big cams / big carbs /headers / All your standard hot rod stuff ive enjoyed figuring out how to adapt the wiring and turbos and fitting it my fiero.

My other fiero is looking like a V6 Buick 3.8 turbo AKA Gn motor might find its way in there 500.H.P can be had easy out of those even up to 600 H.P. according to the guys on the regal forum

Just my 2cents

CRAP!! i tried desperately to delete the "little dick" comment after i posted it. i really set myself up on that one. WKD, you seem like a fair and intelligent person. you have been very accurate in all your opinions so far. thanks for the input.

I can be fair and spout out some information that I have learned over the years.

But I had to take a walk around the block to get the notion out of my head to keep from blasting your "dick" comment wide open. Ive left myself open at times but that was just a giant target! lol

No worries, I know how power crazed you Texans can get!

As for your brother and switching out his engine again, Ive never known a hot rodder to be ever "finished" with their ride. Just a few finally sell them after being nagged by the ball and chain. >:/

quote Originally posted by zeelebuba: ...My other fiero is looking like a V6 Buick 3.8 turbo AKA Gn motor might find its way in there 500.H.P can be had easy out of those even up to 600 H.P. according to the guys on the regal forum

Now that sounds like it could be fun... just saw these pics in another post in the past week or two:

[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 12-07-2001).]

quote Originally posted by WKDFIRO: I have pointed out in the past and will do so again. How many 88 MR-2s do you see with V6s put in them. How many with V8s? While we are at it, how many cars that ended production in the 80s are STILL EVOLVING into more and powerful cars almost 15 years later?

How many v6's and v8's actually fit in an MR2? You have to work with what you can actually use. If all 4 cyl Fieros came with SD4's instead of iron dukes they probably wouldn't have made a v6 model anyway (even if they only made 92 hp stock). If MR2 motors were as frigile as 2.5's and 2.8's they wouldn't be able to do the things that they do with them and they wold be looking for something else to put in them.

As for your second question. (Assuming that you meant "more and more powerful" insetad of "more and powerful" to which I'd have to answer no since they quit making them and the numbers wouldn't grow.) Almost all of them. What else are you going to do with a 15 year old car?

A late entry to the discussion....basically I do agree with 80's boy. A basic warm over of the 2.8 in my formula would have cost about $2000. That's without going into the bottom end. Switching ot a 3.4 would have added another $1000 to that and still would barely put the car into the low 14's. Instead, for just over $1000, I picked up a low mileage '96 3800 SC. Combined with a 5 spd, that shoudl be good for low 13's before mods. My first choice was the SBC, as the swap has been well engineered and tested and the goodie list for that engine is positively huge, not to mention it's all around basic goodness. Unfortunately, a set of "must have" aluminum heads would have cost more than the engine I bought. Oh well, maybe next time. Then again, the parts bin for the 3800 is growing every day

[This message has been edited by Wannabe (edited 12-07-2001).]

If your'e happy with what you have in the Fiero that's great. If you are unhappy with it then get rid of it or do something worth while but most of you sound like a bunch of little boys trying to build a better sand castle or have an over dose of testosterone.

Why don't you post something worthwhile on this site instead of your childish bickering? It might benefit the hobby more.

Oops, I should proof read more and more carefully!

I actually meant that Fieros are evolving into more powerful cars almost 15 years later.

What I do to a 15 year old car depends on the car. My point is that you are more likely to find a V8 Fiero that is 15 years old than, say, a 15 year old Buick Skylark. They both would have the same basic powertrain. Why are most Skylarks in the salvage yard? Because its what most people do with a 15 year old car.

And I'll agree with you that the MR-2 was outright a better engineered car than the Fiero. It has been proven that an MR-2 (2nd gen) can be built up to 400 hp. But at what cost? You now have an engine that is right on the edge of power and punching a hole through the block. A built SBC can make 300hp before 4000 rpm where the teeny tiny 4 cyl is screaming at 6000 + rpm to make the same. Americans typically want their torque like their Big Macs: Right now. Japanese imports no matter how powerful are not known for being torquey.

Perhaps it is because the Fieros didn't come with the 3.0 DOHC SD-4s (God,that would have been bad ass.) that we are so obsessed with building the "Fiero that GM didn't build."

Its this kind of talk, Mike, while being on the brash side, a little on the crude side, that built this "hobby." Kids with an overdose of testosterone were unhappy with their old man's 32 Ford Coupe. They did something about it. This childish bickering has been going on for a long time and has lead on to engines and cars that are bigger, better and badder.

Sometimes the better sand castle can be a little boy with a dream of a car with an engine having 10 cylinders with almost 500 cubic inches of displacement.

Wouldn't that be a worthwhile benefit...

When it's the middle of July and it's 95 degrees in the shade and you pull up to a traffic jam and everything stops, enjoy watching your temp. guage with your power mad V8. There's give and take with everything. The ability to put my fiero in almost any weather and not worry about the guages and transaxle is worth more to me than foolishly smoking my tires at every stop sign to try to impress the Junior High Kids. You can only get so much power to the ground before it's wasted anyhow.

Scott

Y'all guys maybe don't know that 80's Boy is into autocrossing. He may be into other forms of racing, I don't know. But to him it's not just for making noise and waking up the neighbors. In racing, you want power and as much reliability as you can get, and at the best price. Yes, he's a young guy, but as a 44-yr-old even I can understand his motivation.

quote Originally posted by Firebug: When it's the middle of July and it's 95 degrees in the shade and you pull up to a traffic jam and everything stops, enjoy watching your temp. guage with your power mad V8. There's give and take with everything. The ability to put my fiero in almost any weather and not worry about the guages and transaxle is worth more to me than foolishly smoking my tires at every stop sign to try to impress the Junior High Kids. You can only get so much power to the ground before it's wasted anyhow. Scott

Well Scott if you had a v8 you'd know better.
I don't try to impress anyone with a burnout.
The trick is to keep the power on to the point of just before breaking traction. The G pull is awesome. But then if you don't grab for that brass ring you'll never know.

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