Will, judging by your post, you are in the Military? ("being stationed to CA") If so you can avoid the vehicle being tested if you license it in your home state. If the home state has testing, Most will exempt you from emission testing while assigned to a military post outside of that state. When I was in the Military in the early 80's, Registration in the state I was stationed in was a sliding scale based on the car. If I remember correctly it was like $175 for registration. But at my home of record its was only $48.00. Guess where I registered it?
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03:32 AM
Hym-The-Man Member
Posts: 65 From: Lawrence,KS,U.S.A Registered: Jan 2001
What happened to the topic. Guys, I don't know why you are arguing these points, nut they need to end. I think that there is an O/T section in the forum that this can take up space in.
Archie no one would ever doubt your reliability, you have the know-how, experience and reputation. Let that speak for itself. To all others, do what you want to the fiero, as long as you have the money to do so, does it really matter?
I personally want to put a N* in a fiero with a 5-speed. That is my choice and I know that , as in all hotrodding, I take a risk. We all take that risk and are, for he most part, willing to take the chance on doing it. So lets quit the bickering and get back to what we all want to know.
Fiero+Northstar+Getrag/Isuzu+hard work+ luck= a sweet ride!
Fist off the V8 pushrod has been done nothing new old technology. Everyone is going over to Overhead cams and Four cams are better than one. You cannot beat the high revving low torque power of the N*. So if you do get it built great. Some points though you might want to use an Aurora ECM. They have less sensors on the 4.0 as opposed to the 4.6 so you can easier adapt it to an engine that will be missing a lot of sensors i.e no Transmission and perhaps some other stuff.
Archie please stop saying that you have been in the business for 15 years. I'm sick of hearing it. All that means is that you have been the shining beacon of star back for about 10 years. What are you doing now? Are you keeping up to date with the new enignes. Are you seeing how the pushrods are being done with nice and quietly. How are you going to fill the void when the pushrods are gone scurrying in wreckyards? Not intended as a flame but you being in the business for 15 years is getting old and starting to mean nothing.
Later
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09:12 AM
northstar87 Member
Posts: 340 From: Fort Wayne, IN USA Registered: Jan 99
Originally posted by Archie: You say Gm engineers would not use the Getrag with a V-8, is that true? WHO CARES? You totally ignore the actual on the road record of V-8's in stick shift Fieros. If a group of engineers were evaluating that situation today, they would take the current record into consideration in their final evaluation. But not you, you totally ignore the real world record in your analysis.
50 miles at 50 MPH.... Who Cares?..... Even Cadillac dropped that line of advertizing in favor the "On Star" (or whatever) system. A reasonable person wouldn't drive their car if they knew there was something wrong with it. They would pick up the cell phone and call the autoclub just like Cadillac advertizes now. When you go to that "Auto Instructor's Update seminar" ask your instructors how many would recommend a 50/50 drive without fluids as opposed to a call to the auto club. A maximum education doesn't always mean a maximum knowledge.
It's hard to believe that someone who makes these kinds of statements to back up his position has all the education & certifications you claim to have. I'm just a backwoods uneducated bumkin, I bow to your superior knowledge on everything...... & if Tim Allen agrees with you, I'm convinced.
Archie
Mr Archie, Sounds like you might be upset with me. Are you upset because someone is actually trying to argue with you? I don't have to comment on the first paragraph because Will did a very nice job on that. I forgot that everyone has a cell phone. How could I be so stupid. As for the last paragraph, I did not know you were a backwoods uneducated bumkin. You should think higher of yourself. You don't have to bow to me, you might get your knee's dirty. I must agree with Hym-the-Man. You are right about taking risks. If we do any kind of transplant that was not meant to be in this car we take a risk. I am sorry if you thought we were in competition with each other because we are not. We are just 2 totally different people with totally different backgrounds that like to play with Fieros. We are both Fiero people. We all just need to get along for the Fiero's sake. Thanks for your time.
Chris Moore ASE Master Auto Tech and Auto Instructor 1986 GT Convertible Northstar 1987 GT Northstar 1988 GT T-TOP 3.4 5 speed 1988 GT T-TOP stock
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09:21 AM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
You know, this isn't about NStar vs SBC, it isn't about push rods vs OHC.
This is about several people who want to bolt a NStar up to a Getrag. I say "go for it" you say they shouldn't do it because it will fail. You also say "If you have any questions I would be happy to try to answer them."
I, in reference to all of the Fiero V-8 cars with stick transmissions that exist, asked you "Why would you ignore all the facts, and declare the getrag too weak to use with a V-8?"
You never have answered that question.
You've given us the "How could I be so stupid" routine 8 or 9 times, but you've ignored the question.
You've talked about reliability & gas mileage, but you've ignored the question.
You've talked about your superior education, but you've ignored the question.
I GIVE UP !, is this how we are educating our children these days?
Hey, you guys who want to put a NStar infront of a Getrag, you better give it up. Chris said it won't work.
Hey, you guys with the stick shift V-8 Fieros, you better get on home and put the stock engine back in it 'cus Chris said it won't work.
And we all know the teacher is always right.
My biggest mistake is thinking that someone with all your education and certifications could effectively answer just that one question.
I give up.
Archie
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11:41 AM
Steve Normington Member
Posts: 7663 From: Mesa, AZ, USA Registered: Apr 2001
Originally posted by Steve Normington: What did you have to do to these trannys to get them ready (blueprint, new gears, bearings, etc)?
Actually, I've never had one of these transmissions apart. I use them as they come. I put fresh oil in them and I'll clean & paint the outside and if needed I've replaced axles seals, but that's it.
A few customers (actually 3 customers) have asked me to have their transmissions reconditioned and I've taken them to a local transmission shop to be gone thru. But all of the transmissions in my cars and almost all of the transmissions in customer cars as recieved, bone stock, clean 'em, paint 'em & install them deals.
Someone asked if I'm keeping up with new engines....... Yep.... I think I'm keeping up just fine, in the last 2 years I've bought new Chevy Crate engines that included LM1's, 300HP "Target-Masters, 300 HP 350 HO's, 355HP ZZ4's, 385 Fast Burn engines, LT1's, Vortec's & LS1's. Each one of these engines have been installed in both stick shift and automatic cars. And these engines in these cars can keep up with any of the "New" engines.
The same guy thinks push rod engines are disappearing and that I'll be hunting junkyards for engines soon....... He needs to read any Hot Rod type magazine, push-rod type SBC engines will be around long after he & I are both eating dirt.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 04-08-2001).]
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03:01 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by terryk: You have to deal with deceleration fuel cutoff and air injection is just about the only way to handle it with a manual.
What you use in CA is simple. Use what came with the engine. Dual O2's? Then use dual O2's. A different cat can be used, but if air injection was used (and it isn't on the 3800SC), then you have to have a cat with AI.
So far, they've only used the idle/high RPM tests, no IM240 treadmill for recerts.
Other than them flat out being braindead, a manual trans 3800SC will not be recertified.
Funny, but a manual trans LT1 on a Getrag would pass.
I'm not sure we're on the same frequency. What do you mean by "handle" deceleration cutoff? Is that hard on the converter? Even if I do use air injection (even though the engine didn't come with it), and even if it can pass the sniffer, will it still not be certified because it's a manual and the engine was only offered with automatics?
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03:05 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Oreif: Will, judging by your post, you are in the Military? ("being stationed to CA") If so you can avoid the vehicle being tested if you license it in your home state. If the home state has testing, Most will exempt you from emission testing while assigned to a military post outside of that state. When I was in the Military in the early 80's, Registration in the state I was stationed in was a sliding scale based on the car. If I remember correctly it was like $175 for registration. But at my home of record its was only $48.00. Guess where I registered it?
I will be in the military beginning this summer. Registration games are certainly an option, but I would rather have it able to pass CA emissions, if for no other reason than to have some twisted bragging rights.
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03:07 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by sjp777: I will take an Archie sbc conversion over a N* any day of the week. For all its great technology, The N* was still designed for a luxury car and the HP rating is most unimpressive in stock form. I haven't seen a whole lot of performance upgrades for that engine.
Archie, buddy, how you coming with an LS1 conversion? We're counting on you big guy.
Most SBC conversions I hear mentioned on the forum are less than 300 HP. Read the rest of the thread. www.chrfab.com has heads and cams packages and has already been mentioned in this thread. Advancing the intake cams 5 degrees and porting the heads yields 50+ more HP.
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03:32 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Sillhouette.com: Wow interesting.
You cannot beat the high revving low torque power of the N*. So if you do get it built great. Some points though you might want to use an Aurora ECM. They have less sensors on the 4.0 as opposed to the 4.6 so you can easier adapt it to an engine that will be missing a lot of sensors i.e no Transmission and perhaps some other stuff.
Originally posted by Archie: You've talked about your superior education, but you've ignored the question.
I GIVE UP !, is this how we are educating our children these days?
Hey, you guys who want to put a NStar infront of a Getrag, you better give it up. Chris said it won't work.
Hey, you guys with the stick shift V-8 Fieros, you better get on home and put the stock engine back in it 'cus Chris said it won't work.
And we all know the teacher is always right.
My biggest mistake is thinking that someone with all your education and certifications could effectively answer just that one question.
I give up.
Archie
Mr Archie, Thanks for putting words into my mouth. That really makes your intelligence shine. Here are some pics for everyone. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1315468&a=10926061 Archie, Don't you think we should just both get along for Fiero's sake? Also because I will be at every show that you will be at this year? I hope we can end this.
Chris Moore ASE Master Auto Tech and Auto Instructor 1986 GT Convertible Northstar 1987 GT Northstar 1988 GT T-TOP 3.4 5 speed 1988 GT T-TOP stock
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03:58 PM
Jay Member
Posts: 1107 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: May 2000
SJP777: I've gotta say that "Bone Stock" with the auto tranny my Northstar does quite well. In fact, it's fantastic usable power. As Will said 295ftlbs of torque and 300hp is nothing to sneeze at. My car will snap your neck and plant you into the back of the seat in a real hurry!! I can't imagine another 50 or 100 horses just by getting the custom cams from chrfab. If you want performance I believe you can order all the parts that GM uses in the Aurora and the endurance Cadillac Racers. Don't know if it'll pass emmissions or if it will be drivable on the road, but there is performance out there for the Northstar. Just doing the true duel exhaust with 2 cats really opened it up for me. Shortening the belt by removing A/C and Powersteering made a difference also. I'm gonna get it on the dyno and I'll post the results.
What I believe is that we are all customizers. We don't want what is normal. We want to improve our cars for ourselves and we want to have fun doing it! I don't care what you got as long as it is different. If that means a N* with twin turbos or a N* that is bone stock or a SBC, it's all good. I've even seen and driven in a Fiero with a 454 big block (up front)Pro Street!!!Is it stupid? Sure, but it's cool too! And that is the point of Hot Rodding!! Be different!!! Try new things!!!Share the wealth of information that you learn!!!!And have a good time while you're at it!! www.members.home.net/jaygrande 86 Fiero GT Northstar
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05:21 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
This is why I've given up on you. Once again you haven't answered the question.
Instead you post up pics. of a 4 cyl. 4 speed transmission that was lunched on purpose by Tina in her 383 stroker car. But then you kow that, you would have had to read her thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/005209.html to get the link to the photos you post as evidence.
Do you think everyone here is stupid? Everybody who is following this thread has read the threads by Tina.
I dare you to let Tina "Test" your car for a half an hour & see how it holds up.
I'll tell you another thing, it's about time you stop insulting my intelligence. You insult everyones intelligence when you post up pictures like Tina's out of context.
If the engine was not available with a manual transmission in California from the factory, it's not allowed. The fact that it will pass is irrelevant. CA doesn't care about fed engines either even if the fed engine is tha same as a CA. It's either a CA certified engine or it's not. End of subject.
That combination must have been originally certified in California for the year of the engine (ie. putting a 94 DOHC on a manual is a no-no since a manual was only available in 91-93.) Well, if you have $100,000 you could pay for the certification process I guess.
Most GM manual trans combinations that are CA certified use an air pump that injects air into the exhaust stream (not cat) during deceleration. Really cleans things up. The Buick SC code supports air injection, but CA doesn't care. If GM didn't certify it, you're not using it.
I don't think there's much more so say about it.
And now back to our regularly scheduled program already in progress.
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06:21 PM
FieroLisa Member
Posts: 1992 From: Sebastopol, CA Registered: Nov 2000
It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that Chris believes that a V8 northstar should not be put with a manual transmission. It does not seem to me that he is saying there is no way it can work at all. Are there any manual northstars yet? (this is an honest question since I don't know) If Chris wants to only make auto N*s that's his own thing. Just because he doesnt want to attempt a manual does not mean he can't answer a plethora of other questions on the topic.
Just because Chris does what he thinks is most reliable doesn't mean he is saying another option won't work. If someone has opinions that it can work, someone has opinions that it won't, that's the way everything works.
If someone does put a manual with a northstar it seems there would be more modification than with the caddie auto, more *potential* to mess up and have a less reliable car.
Of course I'm by no means experienced with V8 Fieros, but I think both of you are selectively reading each others posts- only reading what you know you can get mad about.
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07:47 PM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
I think Tina pretty much proves that a northstar stick shift driven by a SCCA race team would hold up pretty well. It'd even last a whole season doing drag runs in NHRA most likely. ;0)
RE: torque, I actually find the northstar to be way TOO torquey, what good is 240lb-ft at idle? all it does is spin your tyres in 3rd off the line, I'd be fine with burnouts off the line in second, and more top-end kick
(especially in our ligher cars, as the whole driving expierence would seem to harmonize better) Time, time, paitence, and some money, and maybe a mild cam swap eventually, will tell! (then I'll tell you
Best! Ben.
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08:34 PM
WKDFIRO Member
Posts: 1637 From: Cerritos, California, USA Registered: Nov 1999
However, someone did ask about the aftermarket for Northstars and I ran across this a while ago and thought it would be VERY interesting about those who do have N* and maybe wanted to spruce them up! http://www.chrfab.com/index.htm
I apologize if this has already been put up before. If anything its just a got a lotta pretty things too look at from a mechanical point of view.
Well guys, it's like she said. Each is entitled to their opinion. Archie don't be so defensive. Chris is going with an engineered proven drivetrain NS and auto; and anyone wanting to mess with that combination is asking for a lot of headache, let alone suspect reliability. Archie, you believe in your SBC install with both auto and manual trannys, and claim to have claim to many satisfied customers. Well it is my opinion you probably do have many satisfied customers, however they say how hard they drive it. My opinion, I would not be comfortable with all that torque from a SBC driving thru a manual tranny. I believe you are confident but I along with Chris are not. That's because we need to rely on imperical data, not just seat of the pants experimentation that you did. The manufacturers of those manual trannys do not recommend it Archie, and Cris being technically trained goes along with them Because The Data Does Not Support Their Use Beyond The Engineered Parameters. Chris's installation is sound with engineered reliability. I suspect the degree of reliability that Archie would portray has a certain amount of luck attached to it, because the data does'nt seem to want to paint that rosy of a picture. But clearly there is a market for the ironblockOHVcarburated SBC, and for the aluminumDOHC sophisticated NSauto drivetrain. For the moment Archie, keep up the the good work. You have made many a Fiero owner that much more enthusiastic, whereas Chris keeps us dreaming for the future.
Originally posted by terryk: If the engine was not available with a manual transmission in California from the factory, it's not allowed. The fact that it will pass is irrelevant. CA doesn't care about fed engines either even if the fed engine is tha same as a CA. It's either a CA certified engine or it's not. End of subject.
That's damn stupid. I suppose I should be used to half senile, mechanically incompetent hexagenerians lobbied by enviro-Nazis slobering their drivel all over us by now.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-10-2001).]
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10:09 AM
PFF
System Bot
BigTurbo87GT Member
Posts: 90 From: Leesburg, VA, USA Registered: Oct 2000
Just to add a point for future reference for anyone interested in results, I (an over ambitious backyard wrencher that doesn't know anywhere near as much as he thinks and subsequently ends up way over budget) am in the process of procuring a Northstar to be installed in an 87GT with a 5 Speed.
Boring details follow ...
I was planning to go with huge boost and a really stout short block 2.8 but I came across a pretty cheap northstar so... what the heck!
My Getrag has 136,000 miles on it and the 4th gear syncro is going so if it can stand up to a Northstar for a while, that should show some amount of durability. I don't wanna prove anybody Wrong or Right I just want a stick shift. Maybe someone can take some useful info from my experience (once I've had it of course). At some point I will rebuild the Getrag to fix the existing problems but for now I’m curious to see what will happen to it behind some serious torque. Of course it may die instantly and I'll hafta go with an automatic (boy I hope not). My estimate on completion is July - August possibly sooner. The Northstar I'm getting isn't complete so it may take a little while to get missing pieces.
------------------ 87 GT, Clean near stocker 01 IS300
I say we all get on bended knee and offer our first born as thanks to chris moore for gracing our presence.He is the ultimate fiero god...If you don't belive me,ask him!He will not listen to any opinion that does not start with him being right.He can give it,but he can't take it. there,that should start a good war!!!!!!!!!
I say we all get on bended knee and offer our first born as thanks to chris moore for gracing our presence.He is the ultimate fiero god...If you don't belive me,ask him!He will not listen to any opinion that does not start with him being right.He can give it,but he can't take it. there,that should start a good war!!!!!!!!!
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01:15 PM
FieroLisa Member
Posts: 1992 From: Sebastopol, CA Registered: Nov 2000
elfiero- I assume you are just saying that to start a fight, and if so, I'm sorry that you are that bored. That was an extremely close minded post, and I imagine you have never met or talked to Chris in depth. Chris is a great mechanic, enjoys fieros and enjoys meeting Fiero people. He is not one of the people that screws people over in not getting parts shipped out or services done.
My question to those who feel is conceited or anything like that:
Tell me please, Is there something wrong with accomplishing a beautiful looking, fast, fun to drive engine conversion? I'd sure be proud of it to. Chris is proud of his work, and he has every reason to be, but it doesn't go beyond that.
I probably shouldn't be involved in this whole thing, but Chris is a friend of mine, an honest guy and great with cars, and why deprive other people of the chance to get his assistance when certain other people are trying to screw him over? He's not the best their ever was, I'm not saying that, but he is good at what he does.
------------------ Lisa 86 violet pearl 4 speed GT- 17 in. rims, lowered, cold-air, AOL IM: FieroLisa
isn't EL Fiero the one who got in an argument with Chris on the phone over the Northstar? IS someone a little jealous??? How immature can you get. Chris is just about the nicest guy there is when it comes to fiero's he has helped Fierolisa and I several times.
EL Fiero take the stick out of your ass... Chris has some knowledge and you may benifit from it.
