It seems to be a chronic problem with these cars. What would happen if you just did without the EGR Valve. I know what its for, but would it do damage to disconnect it. Seems like its more trouble than its worth.
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02:34 PM
PFF
System Bot
triker Member
Posts: 454 From: Yreka, Ca. USA Registered: Apr 2000
ponya, I put in a thread on this a couple of days ago. You don't need an EGR unless you get tested for emissions. If you don't use it for awhile it'll get plugged up with carbon and will have to be cleaned out before you put it back in service. To eliminate it and your code 32, just hook the vacuum line from the manifold to the little square box on the solenoid. The little box looking thing is just a switch letting the ECM know that there is vacuum to the EGR and it will be happy.
I disagree. The ECM programming is designed around the fact that the EGR system is operable. Without the EGR system, you will have pinging problems which can only be avoided thru drastic changes in timing and the accompanied decrease in performance. Without the benefits of lower combustion cylinder temps due to the EGR system, one can also expect a burned piston in the future.
Mike B.
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06:41 PM
triker Member
Posts: 454 From: Yreka, Ca. USA Registered: Apr 2000
I haven't expierenced any pinging probs and believe the o2 sensor would compensate for any changes in air fuel mix probs just like it does for a vacuum leak. Any mechanic will tell you that an engine will last longer and run better without an EGR valve dumping hot exaust gas into the manifold.
Triker, you need to do more research before you make those kind of statements. You are wrong.
EGR gases contain insignificant amounts of oxygen so the oxygen sensor has absolutly nothing to do with it. The EGR system ports in these inert exhaust gases to "dilute" the combustion mixture and effectivly lower combustion temperatures. The lower temps prevent the decomposition side reactions which contain primarily NOx products.
With the EGR system disabled, the higher combustion temperatures will promote pinging under load. The fact that you have not noticed this pinging is understandable, its a mid-engined car.
Mike B.
[This message has been edited by mwbackus (edited 05-20-2000).]
The EGR system has nothing to due with the emission specs you posted, it is responsible for lowering "NOx emissions". With a good 3-way cat. converter you would see very little change even with it disabled. I would think that one would at least become familiar with what the system actually does before disabling it.
A burned piston is usually caused by combustion temperatures which exceed the limits of the system (ie. piston material). A lean mixture is a good way to increase combustion temps, but a disabled EGR system will have essentially the same effect. If you dont want to do the research on this, ask someone who works on Fiero's for a living, like Ed Parks. He has seen several instances of piston failure due to an inoperable EGR system. The only way that I would even consider doing this is with a custom prom with an enriched fuel map. Joe Wynman has developed such a chip and he offers it for a very reasonble price.
Mike B.
[This message has been edited by mwbackus (edited 05-20-2000).]
Please refer to section 203 of the Federal Clean Air Act:
Sec. 203. (a) The following acts and the causing thereof are prohibited-
(3)(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this title.
SEC. 205. CIVIL PENALTIES. (a) Violations.- Any person who violates sections 203(a)(1), 203(a)(4), or 203(a)(5) or any manufacturer or dealer who violates section 203(a)(3)(A) shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000. Any person other than a manufacturer or dealer who violates section 203(a)(3)(A) or any person who violates section 203(a)(3)(B) shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $2,500. Any such violation with respect to paragraph (1),(3)(A), or (4) of section 203(a) shall constitute a separate offense with respect to each motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine. Any such violation with respect to section 203(a)(3)(B) shall constitute a separate offense with respect to each part or component. Any person who violates section 203(a)(2) shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000 per day of violation.
This has absolutely nothing to do with your state laws, it is Federal Act.
It outlines the 1990 amendments to the act and this quote was taken directly from that document :
"Another change involves tampering and misfueling. Such activities have always been discouraged, but were previously illegal only for commercial operations. "Backyard mechanics" now are also subject to stiff penalties for deliberate tampering."
Mike B.
[This message has been edited by mwbackus (edited 05-20-2000).]
My EGR valve has been unhooked for three years and it runs great with no ping. I never have seen a EGR valve on a race car. A EGR valve is for polution only and does effect the performace of the engine.
The fact is that you could easily rebuild the stock V6 to specs where it would not require the EGR system to cool combustion temps. A "race" engine has obviously been built with that in mind. duh.. If you feel that disabling the EGR system will not promote engine problems then that is your choice, but combustion thermodynamics predict that damage WILL occur, and in my opinion it amounts to nothing less than sheer ignorance and stupidity.
Mike B.
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12:45 AM
Phaeton Member
Posts: 1437 From: Interior Alaska Registered: Dec 1999
Too many variables for definite generalities, the biggest one is the drivers right foot.
The physics are as stated, but a stock engine can be raced without an EGR for years also. Variables, not an item to promote high blood pressures, but differing experiences.
Start it up and go? Idle for long periods groovin' to the Hi-Fi? Got the one in a thousand anti-lemon?
I get realy tired of asking questions just to get a lot of hersay.
I would like to hear experiences of others who have actualy done a modification.
Not ramifications of what ifs, and this should happen if my calculations are correct bull shizz.
The fact that you may have all the information in the world at your disposal should not give you the right to discourage peoples opinions or experiences period.
Read my thread on EGR's it is the biggest longest thread on EGR's in this forum.
I looked at it from both sides and decided to screw the tech heads and find out for my self (no ill sided effects so far)
I have my engine apart and the cylinders look fine.
I will not even go into the logistics of EGR's just that allow people to voice opinions and experiences without persecution.
Who would you like to work on your car? a fresh college student with the latest greatest in education or someone with years of now how and experience? They both have their place and abilitys give them both a chance!
You talk about bills and acts but you forget the most important one, freedom of speach.
I enjoy good information but never discourage others from posting opinions or true experiences!
mwbackus this is not directed at you or anyone in particular.
mwbackus have you had an engine fail or ever seen in person a failed engine due to EGR failure?
You may have seen a tidy little picture or Bob the mechanic says it may happen. But have you ever thought that maybe other malfunctions such as improper maitenance may have caused or aided cause of such engine failures?
take this thread for example people stopped responding due to being over whelmed by your tech talk and legal information, for what good? So your dominant over this discution, save the pissing match! let other deside for them selves.
I need to take my medication now!
[This message has been edited by FIEROCIOUS (edited 05-21-2000).]
Waaa... The Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association is the largest group of professional rebuilders in the US. The organization has been in existence since 1922 and has thousands of members.
They ARE the experts (not you or me), on this subject, and if you refuse to take the information I have submitted that has been written BY this organization as fact then that is your problem. I post facts, to give the users of this forum the information they need to make the best decision about their car. The "i did it and it worked ok so far" statements (the epitome of hearsay) carry absolutely no weight when one is considering something with substantiated ramifications that could cost them hundreds of dollars down the road.
Mike B.
BTW, if you are incapable of debating a topic without resorting to personal flames, perhaps it better we discuss this in person. I only live 30 miles away and would welcome the opportunity.
[This message has been edited by mwbackus (edited 05-21-2000).]
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12:30 PM
Phaeton Member
Posts: 1437 From: Interior Alaska Registered: Dec 1999
Don't shoot me! This is just personal observation of my own vehicle and not meant to rile anyone.
MY egr is activated only when the manifold pressure drops below a certain value. If I jump in and go without idling anywhere the egr does not engage.
There are two roads I drive regular that do not have a stopsign or traffic light for three hundred miles. Whether or not my egr would function doesn't matter, the pressure never drops low enough to engage. This experience could lead me to say an egr is unnecessary and can be disconnected without harm.
Going to work I jump into commuter traffic that takes 45 minutes to go 11 miles. Putt putt putt, the manifold pressure never gets above six inches. The egr is constantly engaged and this experience would lead me to admonish folks to never disconnect the egr as the engine will fail right soon.
Variables in driving habits significantly affect mechanical responses. More than just mileage is controlled by the right toe.
mwbackus, you obviously took my post the wrong way.
I apreciate your knowledge and wisdom.
I tend to not take information as fact due to I've done this far to long to belive everthing I'm told.
I do however again appreciate your information, you have been a value to me and this forum time and time agian, but because someone disagrees with you does that give you me or anyone the right to discourage others?
I agree with you (it worked so far) if it were short term. but five (5) years, come on!
It wasn't to long ago that people belived that if you went faster than 60 MPH your face would rip off!
People exceed limits test boundrys, that is what our hobby is all about. If Me you and joe Q didn't modify and break rules the automotive industrie would still be in it's infancy!
How many engines do you think Smokey Yunick, Isky, Garlits, Clay Smith and countless other blew up in search of performance? Let each individual decide and live with the concequences.
This or my previous post are not personal flames directed towards you! I quote "mwbackus this is not directed toward you or anyone in particular."
Maybee it's a little hard to read while seeing RED! I appologize if you took it wrong.
Quite frankly I listen to people who think they are gods gift to automobiles every day. They are always right and can't be told differant! The only fact I know is we are all wrong and can always learn to some degree! I am not above beeing wrong and appreciate being told I am from time to time! Otherwise I would never learn.
You can remember the fireing order of every engine made, know every color a 69 GTX came in but you would still be a statustition! Not a ace mechanic!
I could debate all day long till I'm blue in the face but you'll still be right and I will still be wrong!
I just added to the piss puddle. let's not drown in it!
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03:52 PM
Phaeton Member
Posts: 1437 From: Interior Alaska Registered: Dec 1999
So an "opinion" that doing something regarded as detremental to an engine by the majority of professionals in the industry is "ignorance and stupidity" is childish? You have done nothing but show this forum your extreme lack of intelligence by making outlandish statements that are easily proven to be the BS they are. Did you inform the buyer of these cars that you illegally disabled the EGR system? I highly doubt it, and this is nothing more than a demonstration of your lack of integrity.
If I told you you sh!t neon pink you would belive me if I had a doctorate in feces? Or would you take a peak before you flush?
Who is flameing? mwbackus, I'll always have extreme lack of intellgence and make outlandish statements matter of factly every thing I say is BS as for my integrity, never had any!
Your still right, I'm still wrong!
I'm blessed with your heavenly divinity. how is the gift of GOD?
I stated an opinion and YOU called me "childish" bud. THAT is a flame, and one good turn deserves another. :-) The statements you made were total BS and I simply submitted facts to prove it. I never replyed to your grovel Fierocios, it just wasn't worth it, but I am sure we will meet some day!
One last little note. Regarding known violators of the clean air act and just how seriously the EPA considers these issues of "back yard" tampering and disabling of emission control systems. The link below is a very interesting page used to submit just this type of information: http://es.epa.gov/oeca/main/enforce/file.html
I'm not sure if they have encountered many cases where the violators have actually "admitted" in public to the things they have done, seems they would welcome such an easy to prosecute case.
Well thats an interesting deduction Orief. But in reviewing the sentence in question it seems I did not name any one inparticular. In fact it was an opinion directed at the act of disabling the system, not at those that have done it. It is you own guilt and insecurity that have caused this situation. Perhaps you should seek some professional help. You know, a Psychiatrist and maybe a Lawyer.
Mike B.
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11:43 AM
triker Member
Posts: 454 From: Yreka, Ca. USA Registered: Apr 2000
For any EPA eavsedroppers out there, or anyone seeking a reward for turning me in, I promise to put the cats back on both of my Fieros and restore the EGR valves to good working order. And I probably have an old AIR pump lying around that I'll hook up just for good measure.
Reading this humbling discussion sure brings to the forefront two views of life.
One view of life is with liberty of choice and the other is stiffled and strangled because someone somewhere knows more than the person they want to regulate. I say the last is total BS.
How many times has our government told us something anything that was meant to help educate us. Telling us that if we did something, that particular something would hurt/kill us or hurt/kill someone else, and after a time it turns out to be totally false.
Yet how many times has our government in the last century, knowly exposed its citizens to radiation and other KNOWN causes of death, just to see the results, trying to make better warfare preparedness (atomic testing).
The government and the epa are not the authorities on everything and just because they make a claim does not make it so.
Take a look at oreif's data: As for emission testing: HC~ spec is 1.262 [he] had 1.255 CO~ spec is 11.211 [he] had 5.042 CO2~ spec is NA [he] had 2.23
It seems to me that he had a lower rating on 2 of the 2 known measurables, that's 100% better. If a lower rating is better than the minimum required "by law" then who should care if he eliminates the egr from his car(s).
If he chooses to do something that is better performance and "passes testing" why should it matter to anybody?
Over regulation, and too many rules choke, stiffle and ultimately kill inovation and imagination. What has happened to this country that everything must be checked by government regulators and EXPERTS?
Non-experts gave us the telephone (Alexander Graham Bell) and the cotton gin (Eli Whitney). These people took what they knew, applied that knowledge, produced a product and American society benefitted and the whole world for that matter.
Regulatory minded people, have taken their "cause" too far and destroyed personal freedom and iginuity(sp).
On the flip side, if someone chooses to do something and their choice causes failure, then that person needs to live with their choice, no one made them make that choice.
Yet governments and experts automatically assume things based on interpretted data and prevent people from making choices, which is just as wrong as people making unsavory choices.
So who is more to blame? Someone who makes a bad choice, or the government/experts that prevent choice from being made?
Within the confines of the U.S. Constitution, it is my contention that the people preventing choices from being made are more to blame than those exercising their natural right to choose.
[This message has been edited by Gold-86SE (edited 05-22-2000).]
No Mr. Kopielski, that drivel does not even come close to a formal apology. And I refrain from apologies from those that admit to federal crimes anyway. You see Gold-86SE your right to choose ends when it violates the laws that the majority of this great country have decided upon. That’s how it works here in the US, if ya don’t like it, leave!
Hey backus, actually the right to choose never ends. Because the founding of this country was based on a choice to revolt against an overbearing tyrannical british government. A government that had too many rules and a government that would not allow people to speak or assemble or do any of the freedoms that this country was granted by its founding fathers.
These rights were given to everyone who comes to this country, and if i choose to do something that is my right. The founding fathers never wanted a tyrannical government, that is why the powers NOT GIVEN TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WERE RESERVED TO WHOM? The states and their people.
Federal crime? I love it. Unless I misunderstand the numbers Oreif's numbers are better than the Federal Government's requirement. So what is the big deal if he chooses to operate his engines with out the EGR?
People who think that someone has to dictate what others can do and what they cannot do with their property are the type of people the revolutionaries founght against.
If you don't like freedom, leave.
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02:21 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Hey Gold-86SE, Don't waste your time arguing with him. He's obviously here to just harass people and act as a government watchdog. Now he's even spending time looking up people so he can post their real names. Next week he plans on posting all those he thinks commited a federal crime on his new website, "Iamastoolpigeonforthegovernment.com" We're just a bunch of law breaking rebels. Like those others in history, You know the ones That dumped tea in the harbor and opposed the the tyrant leaders that tried to control and tax everyone.
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02:57 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Hey Gold-86SE, Don't waste your time arguing with him. He's obviously here to just harass people and act as a government watchdog. Now he's even spending time looking up people so he can post their real names. Next week he plans on posting all those he thinks commited a federal crime on his new website, "Iamastoolpigeonforthegovernment.com" We're just a bunch of law breaking rebels. Like those others in history, You know the ones That dumped tea in the harbor and opposed the the tyrant leaders that tried to control and tax everyone.
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03:00 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Hey Gold-86SE, Don't waste your time arguing with him. He's obviously here to just harass people and act as a government watchdog. Now he's even spending time looking up people so he can post their real names. Next week he plans on posting all those he thinks commited a federal crime on his new website, "Iamastoolpigeonforthegovernment.com" We're just a bunch of law breaking rebels. Like those others in history, You know the ones That dumped tea in the harbor and opposed the the tyrant leaders that tried to control and tax everyone.
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03:03 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Hey Gold-86SE, Don't waste your time arguing with him. He's obviously here to just harass people and act as a government watchdog. Now he's even spending time looking up people so he can post their real names. Next week he plans on posting all those he thinks commited a federal crime on his new website, "Iamastoolpigeonforthegovernment.com" We're just a bunch of law breaking rebels. Like those others in history, You know the ones That dumped tea in the harbor and opposed the the tyrant leaders that tried to control and tax everyone.
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03:04 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Hey Gold-86SE, Don't waste your time arguing with him. He's obviously here to just harass people and act as a government watchdog. Now he's even spending time looking up people so he can post their real names. Next week he plans on posting all those he thinks commited a federal crime on his new website, "Iamastoolpigeonforthegovernment.com" We're just a bunch of law breaking rebels. Like those others in history, You know the ones That dumped tea in the harbor and opposed the the tyrant leaders that tried to control and tax everyone.
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03:05 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Hey Gold-86SE, Don't waste your time arguing with him. He's obviously here to just harass people and act as a government watchdog. Now he's even spending time looking up people so he can post their real names. Next week he plans on posting all those he thinks commited a federal crime on his new website, "Iamastoolpigeonforthegovernment.com" We're just a bunch of law breaking rebels. Like those others in history, You know the ones That dumped tea in the harbor and opposed the the tyrant leaders that tried to control and tax everyone.
Well, from my very recent correspondence with the EPA, it seems that they do take these "federal crimes" very seriously. As a matter of fact, I was previously under the impression that a fine of up to $2,500 would apply for each part of each vehicle that was intentionally tampered with and disabled. I was suprised to find out that when you "sell" a vehicle that has the emmission systems intentionally tampered with/disbled per 203(a)(3)(A) that you fall under the dealer classification and are therefore subject to fines up to $25,000 for "each" vehicle. Any further correspondence regarding this should be directed to:
Richard Biondi, Associate Director, Air Enforcement Division, Office of Regulatory Enforcement @ (202) 564-2260
Thanks, and you all have a nice day too!!
BTW Oreif, It really dosn't matter that you deleted all of your posts, I made a copy of this page long ago when I submitted it to the EPA. :-) I also do not need a "web page" with all the violations posted, as I am sure it will suffice to make an example out of this alone!
[This message has been edited by mwbackus (edited 05-22-2000).]
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03:23 PM
Monkeyman Member
Posts: 15845 From: Sparta, NC Registered: Nov 1999
I hate to get involved in this flame war, but I just had mine changed out today. For what it's worth, my mechanic (I know absolutely nothing about cars) said that you need the EGR valve and selenoid for more than just emissions. He said that, when/if I decided to rebuild it (3.2?) I can have it rebuilt/modified so that the EGR isn't needed, but for my stock application it's neccessary. I don't care a bit about whether or not a modification is legal (no inspections in Indiana). If my cat didn't look so new, I'd have had them rip that out.
May I humbly suggest that everyone take a chill pill (does anyone still say that?!?)?
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05:18 PM
PFF
System Bot
olympic Member
Posts: 544 From: Saskatchewan,Canada Registered: Oct 1999
AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, I haven't seen such a childish bunch of crap since about third grade. Sheesh, get a life. If you cant take a little friendly(or even not so friendly) debate without resorting to legal threats and other childish actions just don't get involved in the first place.
Hmmmmm, that don't look too stock to me. Maybe all 1000 forum members should click on the link you so graciously provided and give them your list of mods!!! (Olympic raises his hand in the air and runs toward the principal's office exclaiming "I'm telling!, I'm telling!, I'm Telling!, I'm telling!......."
[This message has been edited by olympic (edited 05-22-2000).]
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08:22 PM
olympic Member
Posts: 544 From: Saskatchewan,Canada Registered: Oct 1999
Do you even know what Liable is Orief? Maybe you should spend some time reading the US Code, you are making mistakes that will cost you any future you would have had with your libelous remarks! I intend to contact my Attorney tomorrow, I would suggest you do the same!
Mike B.
[This message has been edited by mwbackus (edited 05-22-2000).]
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08:33 PM
jhogans Member
Posts: 258 From: Lawrenceville, GA USA Registered: Sep 1999
With all the violent crime and illegal drugs in this country, you would think that would be more important than trying to "rat" on somebody because they disable their EGR.
"Can't we all just get along." - Rodney King.
Let hug and make up
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09:00 PM
GT Bastard Member
Posts: 2243 From: Rapid City, SD Registered: Sep 1999
MWBACKUS, I have now lost ALL respect for you as a human being. It's one thing to encourage people to use cat converters and other emmisions equipment, but it's something else entirely to THREATEN forum members with persecution. Just what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Cleaner air for all mankind? If so you're looking in the wrong place. Try doing something in life that matters you backstabbing filth...
[This message has been edited by GT Bastard (edited 05-22-2000).]
