Helicopter/passenger plane collision. No survivors, 67 reported dead (Page 4/7)
cliffw FEB 01, 02:16 PM
I have never been wrong. I have been mistaken lots and lots of times, .
Sage FEB 01, 04:45 PM
Had a friend who's "motto" was: "I've never made a mistake.....I've just paid a lot for some bad information.".....and....."I thought I was wrong once...but I was mistaken!"


HAGO!


Somebody was wrong that night....and everybody involved paid...the ultimate price.
blackrams FEB 01, 05:29 PM

quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

The Black Hawk crew, using night vision goggles, flew the training mission along the Potomac River on a path known as Route 4. As the Army comes under scrutiny for operating at night near a busy airport, officials have pointed to the battalion's sensitive operations.
"Some of their mission is to support the Department of Defense if something really bad happens in this area, and we need to move our senior leaders," said Jonathan Koziol, the chief of staff of the Army's Aviation Directorate.

https://www.reuters.com/wor...eadiness-2025-02-01/




Honestly, I am shocked if this is correct. I guess that could explain the zigzagging of the route along the river.

Rams
maryjane FEB 01, 06:29 PM

quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Honestly, I am shocked if this is correct. I guess that could explain the zigzagging of the route along the river.

Rams


https://www.wsj.com/livecov...ru9GLj?siteid=yhoof2


From the WSJ:

quote
Army Officials Say Helicopter Pilots Were Likely Wearing Night-Vision Goggles

Army officials said Thursday the pilots of the UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter that collided with the American Airlines jet had night-vision goggles and likely were wearing them at the time of the crash. Officials said using NVGs, as they are often called, would likely be useful in an urban environment as they help the pilots navigate at night. The NVGs would help them see the other aircraft, especially over the Potomac River, which is only lit along the shorelines.


From Business Insider:


quote
The US Army Black Hawk that collided with an American Airlines flight was training on a familiar flight path.

The 12th Aviation Battalion frequently navigates Washington DC airspace for VIP transport.

Pilots were flying with night vision goggles and are trained to deal with those challenges.

The US Army crew of a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter that fatally collided with an American Airlines passenger jet on Wednesday was on a routine training flight on a well-known flight path at the time of the incident, an Army official said Thursday.

Jonathan Koziol, a retired Army chief warrant officer aviator with nearly three decades of military flight experience, said during a media roundtable this flight would have likely been deemed "low risk," not medium or high risk.

Such designations are required elements of pre-flight risk assessments and briefings to military mission approval authorities and take into account variables like weather, mission type, and potential hazards. Koziol, the Headquarters Department of the Army Aviation Directorate Chief of Staff, was not involved in flight operation or oversight.



There are several discussions ongoing within current pilot organizations that explain the current NVGs filter out light in urban areas instead of blinding the pilots like the older ones do. I wouldn't know from experience as NVG came out after i had left the military but using NVG in urban settings seem to be pretty commonplace in parts of the modern battlefield and in training.
blackrams FEB 01, 06:49 PM

quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


There are several discussions ongoing within current pilot organizations that explain the current NVGs filter out light in urban areas instead of blinding the pilots like the older ones do. I wouldn't know from experience as NVG came out after i had left the military but using NVG in urban settings seem to be pretty commonplace in parts of the modern battlefield and in training.



Well, I'm prepared to eat crow for dinner, I do understand most equipment has been improved. I didn't know they had reached that level of advancement. Please pass the salt and pepper.

Being worn is one thing, being in operation in that much light pollution is still shocking to me.


Rebecca Lobach ID’d as female soldier inside doomed Black Hawk during DC crash

https://www.aol.com/news/re...emale-222954653.html

For those interested.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-01-2025).]

maryjane FEB 01, 07:49 PM

quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Well, I'm prepared to eat crow for dinner, I do understand most equipment has been improved. I didn't know they had reached that level of advancement. Please pass the salt and pepper.

Being worn is one thing, being in operation in that much light pollution is still shocking to me.


Rbecca Lobache ID’d as female soldier inside doomed Black Hawk during DC crash

https://www.aol.com/news/re...emale-222954653.html

For those interested.

Rams



I saw that a little bit ago. She was the pilot at controls when the impact took place if everything I've read is correct. She had done a stint not too long ago as an aide or attache with the previous white house staff.


Patrick FEB 02, 12:07 AM

quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

(but Patrick, like everyone else, (myself included) has been wrong lots of times. He just doesn't ever admit it)



"lots of times"? I'll admit to being wrong once, and I owned up to it... which makes you wrong.

maryjane FEB 02, 10:24 AM
Pentagon has continued the practice flights in the crowded airspace around Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, even as flights into and out of the airport have grown in number in recent years.

The Government Accountability Office said in 2021 that there had been some 88,000 helicopter flights in the area between 2017-2019, 37% of which were military flights. The report was commissioned by local lawmakers because of noise complaints stemming from all the flights.

Bloomberg.

https://www.bloomberg.com/n...ive-evacuation-plans
maryjane FEB 05, 11:29 AM
"WASHINGTON (TNND) — The Army Black Hawk helicopter that collided with an American Airlines passenger plane was flying too high, according to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

The flight traffic data that NTSB has obtained confirms that the helicopter was flying at 300 feet according to the air traffic control display, which is 100 feet more than it should be flying the nation's capital.

The maximum altitude for a helicopter to fly in the area is 200 feet.

Since radar data is rounded to the nearest 100 feet, NTSB knew that the helicopter was flying anywhere between 251 feet and 349 feet. With the data from air traffic control, they were able to confirm the high altitude of the helicopter.

The passenger plane was at an elevation of 325 feet and was cleared to land into Ronald Reagan National Airport."
blackrams FEB 05, 11:56 AM

quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

"WASHINGTON (TNND) — The Army Black Hawk helicopter that collided with an American Airlines passenger plane was flying too high, according to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

The flight traffic data that NTSB has obtained confirms that the helicopter was flying at 300 feet according to the air traffic control display, which is 100 feet more than it should be flying the nation's capital.

The maximum altitude for a helicopter to fly in the area is 200 feet.

Since radar data is rounded to the nearest 100 feet, NTSB knew that the helicopter was flying anywhere between 251 feet and 349 feet. With the data from air traffic control, they were able to confirm the high altitude of the helicopter.

The passenger plane was at an elevation of 325 feet and was cleared to land into Ronald Reagan National Airport."



Yep, I read that also. But, with an error potential of 100 ft? How they can determine that precisely is somewhat of a guess. I have no doubt it's a close estimate but, an estimate it is. Both aircraft should have set their altimeter to the reported Density Altitudes so, the altimeters should have been showing accurate readings. I have little doubt the airliner was at the reported altitude and so it makes sense the Blackhawk was within feet of the airliner's altitude but, I'm thinking the helicopter data estimated altitude (supposedly from the tower is more based on the airliner's black box and not on data from the tower. My understanding is that the Blackhawks data has not been retrieved and won't be until the fuselage has been recovered and inspected. I don't understand that decision but, I don't get paid for crash analysis.

Edited: BTW, while I may be wrong, I still don't believe the Blackhawk crew was under NVGs prior to the collision. Just an opinion but, it's all mine and I'm sticking to it.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-05-2025).]