The Turbo 3500 F23 swap (Page 70/70)
ericjon262 APR 05, 02:34 AM

quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

I've never tried ATF but I've always had good luck with Seafoam added to the oil 500 miles or less before an oil change. Does a good job cleaning things out. Is your PCV system functioning properly?

Did your rod and main bearings show enough wear that you think the metal particulate originated from them? You said the rockers were worn a bunch, could all the particulate not have originated from them? If your preload on the lifters was off, could your oiling of the rockers be lacking as well? Did you inspect the lifters/cam when you pulled the pushrods? It's not a similar issue to Patrick with oil not landing on the rocker arms? I would be surprised if you had had particulate up in the heads that did not originate up there, but I guess it's possible. Might be worth spinning the oil pump with a drill and seeing if it comes out all the pushrods evenly as a sanity check.

Is the oil pump drive ok? I know those are known to wear on the drive/cam, could be a metal particle source?

If you pull the pan, could you weld a baffle (or studs to bolt a baffle to) around where the oil drain from turbo enters the pan? Just to prevent possible aerated oil from getting sucked up by the pump. If you are going to weld a new bung on the new pan you could weld it to enter at top of pan at 90* so any aerated oil just sits on top of the oil level.

I don't think you need a restrictor for the turbo, the turbo is a restriction enough for the oil IMO, but it probably would not hurt.

I will say the LZ9 oil pump makes that LX9 oil pump look tiny, not the worst idea to grab another LX9 and an LZ9 at the same time if you do intend to make that happen at some point.



ATF has a ton of detergents in it, it's supposedly pretty good at pulling junk out of an engine, and it also still provides lubrication. at the moment, my PCV system is non functional, it's one of the things on my list to work on.

it's hard to say about the main and rod bearings, they had wear, but it didn't look crazy. I also didn't measure anything so who knows for sure. the lifters had more wear than expected not the rockers. the rockers looked pretty good really. the majority of the particulate was found in the valley and oil pan.

the oil pump drive is a possibility, I haven't pulled it back out. it was in OK shape when I installed it a few months ago, and the cam is a cast core which should be compatible with the gear just fine.

I'm planning on pulling the pan tomorrow or the next day and installing a higher volume oil pump, not sure it will fix it or not though. I built my drain the way I did to improve the maintainability of the car. it's in othersize dead space, and maintains tight tolerance to the starter. when I pull the pan to install the HV pump, I'll go ahead and put a baffle in the pan as well. the tricky part will be ensuring that it clears the rest of the rotating and reciprocating assemblies.

I am not planning on using the LZ9 pump, it doesn't fit without more modifications than I want to do, instead I'll run a high volume stock replacement.
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I went for about a 60 mile drive today to do my taxes, afterwards, I dumped the oil and did a oil change, the filter this time, had no large metal particulate inside., however, finer particles did still exist. I'm hoping this means that there is no further residual material in the engine, I'll have a better idea when I pull the pan to put in the high volume pump.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

zkhennings APR 06, 09:25 AM
I was more suggesting getting an LZ9 ready for the car if LX9 eats itself again partly due to its superior oiling. Hopefully all is well with the new oil pump though!
ericjon262 APR 07, 12:46 AM

quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

I was more suggesting getting an LZ9 ready for the car if LX9 eats itself again partly due to its superior oiling. Hopefully all is well with the new oil pump though!



if an LZ9 was a bolt in and go replacement for the LX9, I would be all about that plan, right off the hit, the LZ9 will need new exhaust manifolds, a new front engine mount, new coolant lines, and I'm sure several other things that will inhibit a speedy installation. I would rather not play around with too many unknowns.

I do still have the short block from the original build with the eagle rods, Diamond pistons, ect. I could get it on a stand and start getting it put back together, it does need some kind of windage tray that will clear the crank/rods, stock will not. if the weather is nice tomorrow, I'm going to take my oil filter cutter, and the tools to pull valve covers to the junkyard and see what I can find

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here's the location of my current oil drain

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

the aeration theory sounds even less appealing looking at this, I can see that the oil drain is about the same distance from the pickup as other's have put theirs without issue, just in the opposite direction, mine is behind or left of the pickup, there's is ahead, or right of the pickup, each by about 2".

just to make sure, I added a small baffle of sorts under the discharge of the drain. I stacked a few weld beads underneath the tube to provide a cup that the oil would discharge into before flowing into the rest of the pan, eliminating all of kinetic energy that could impinge the surface of the oil in the pan.







yesterday, I swapped the HV oil pump in, while under the car, I saw on the shelf under my workbench, the oil filter that was on this engine when I bought it, so I decided to do what I should have done before I brought it home.





next to a newer, cleaner filter



can't see it in the pictures, mainly because the oil in that filter is so loaded with trash but there's metal in that one too. I'm going to keep driving it, in fact, today, I beat the snot out of it and went 0-60 in 5 seconds (4.5 according to crappy GPS app) with ~2 seconds of wheelspin.



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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

zkhennings APR 07, 02:48 PM
Looks good. So where do you think the wear was/is coming from?

How much boost are you running now? Under 5 seconds is pretty quick. You gotta tune this thing on a dyno while it's holding together and get some numbers!
ericjon262 APR 07, 03:14 PM

quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

Looks good. So where do you think the wear was/is coming from?

How much boost are you running now? Under 5 seconds is pretty quick. You gotta tune this thing on a dyno while it's holding together and get some numbers!




At this point, I can only assume it's coming from the valvetrain, either the camshaft, or lifters, the main and rod bearings didn't look that bad when I replaced them.

I'm thinking my boost control solenoid is inoperable, while trying to tune boost control, boost levels were all over the place, and at times while testing it, I noticed it wasn't making the expected noises. right now, with the controller turned "off" I'm getting about 6 PSI out of it. I need to get the intercooler plumbed, and then I can make a trip to a dyno, but I'm not sure where the closest one is.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

ericjon262 APR 15, 02:31 AM
I'm fairly certain my boost control solenoid has failed, I'm sitting at about 7 pounds, with the solenoid turned off, and before I messed with it, it wouldn't go over about 2.2 PSI.

I've decided I am going to put the engine I have in the garage together with the old eagle rods, and forged pistons, I'll also use my old, more aggressive cam.

My MS3 would not run full sequential do to sync loss, this is because the 3400 cam have a single tooth of short duration, and the LX9/LS1 us a half moon, long duration reluctor.
here's a composite log of the crank and cam sensor signals. green is the cam, teal is the crank, and the purple circled red lines indicate sync loss, which means the crank and cam are not in agreement.



I logged the same data, this time, with the cam sensor unplugged



overlaying the data for both indicates that the sync loss is occuring on the same teeth in either scenario, and nowhere else. The ECU is only looking in the middle of the 175 degree range of the sensor. taking the same composite log and applying the firing order and companion cylinders, I can see that the cam position sensor should start in the same place, and end just before cylinder 1 TDC power stroke, which would indicate that I have room to retard the sensor, but not as much to advance it. if I place it in the exact same place as stock, it should read just fine.



so today, I removed the tooth from the old cam, and applied a new 175 degree reluctor, this should allow me to run the engine full sequential, which should improve idle quality, and idle PW.









Later today, I am going to drop the block off at the machine shop and have it bored for the new pistons, and new cam bearings installed, I'm going to ask that the core plugs for the oil galleries be left out so that I can inspect and clean them before assembly. I also picked up an LZ engine a few weeks ago, I'm going to check and see if I can run a LZ head gasket on my LX9, because the cometic's won't work with the overbore my pistons require.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

zkhennings APR 15, 10:50 PM
How is it possible the solenoid made the turbo make less boost than wastegate pressure?

There is a 3 port GM solenoid that Subaru people use.

GM Part # 1997152

They say it is very robust being OEM. And it’s cheap compared to other 3 and 4 ports.
ericjon262 APR 16, 01:39 PM

quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

How is it possible the solenoid made the turbo make less boost than wastegate pressure?

There is a 3 port GM solenoid that Subaru people use.

GM Part # 1997152

They say it is very robust being OEM. And it’s cheap compared to other 3 and 4 ports.



I already ordered a replacement from DIY autotune, but that's definitely one to keep in mind for the future, thanks!

if the solenoid was shut prior to messing with boost control, and then got stuck partway open, then it would cause the above symptoms. unfortunately, after working all night, and then working on another project vehicle for a bit, and going to look at another potential project car(guy was smoking crack about the price), I passed out on the couch instead of getting the block to the machine shop. I won't be able to get one there until friday due to my work schedule unfortunately, but worse things could happen.
pmbrunelle APR 16, 02:08 PM

quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:
GM Part # 1997152



That's the 3-port valve I have on my Fiero.

It is however, limited in the sense that it cannot duplicate the two functions of a 4-port valve:
1. Apply full air pressure to one side of the diaphragm, while venting the other side to atmospehere.
2. Do the opposite of case #1.

With the 4-port valve, the maximum amount of force can be applied to the diaphragm in either direction.
ericjon262 MAY 20, 11:39 PM
well, the old boost control solenoid is definitely stuck open, datalogs show much more boost(~14 lbs) than I am comfortable with as the car sits, unfortunately, I don't have a replacement connector for the new solenoid, so I'll have to get one on order. I also ordered to TMAP(an IAT and MAP sensor combo) sensors, I plan to install one pre intercooler, and one post intercooler so I can see pressure drop across the intercooler, and monitor temps across. hopefully by the end of the week, I can get the plumbing figured out for the intercooler, currently IAT's are out of control, which is part of the reason I'm not comfortable with the higher boost levels.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper