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| 2nd Gen Headlight Pin Replacement (Page 4/6) |
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Dennis LaGrua
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SEP 26, 02:56 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by theogre:
China made likely new but to make sure... New or Rebuild?
Cardone Both and come w/ same warranty but...
AZ will honor most warranties w/ just phone # to id the buyer. (I returned 10+ year old dead starter last year and AZ still honored the warranty.)
Others will bi--- unless you show the receipt and some return to Same store location too.
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Cardone used to rebuild the motors, but now sells brand new GEN 2 motors. They are Made in China look like the GM units, the motors feel heavy duty and function well. Cost is $85 each. Only time will tell if these new Cardone units will hold up but you use headlights to drive at night, so the use in not 100% of your driving time. When I encounter a motor that can not easily be repaired (broken off screws) I'll just buy the Cardone
I wish that Cardone would come out with a new GEN 1 headlight motor. My neighbor drives an 84 and his headlight motors did not go up. We checked it out and determined that both were bad. He sent them out to a guy (Bill Kennedy) to rebuild them and they were returned. Trouble was that after installation both "rebuilt" motors did not function. They tested bad again. Bill offered to make good so he returned them. On the second try the motors worked but he got hit for $28 in extra shipping costs and an additional hour of extra labor. I tell you it takes an expert to rebuild the Gen I motors. They are just so overly complex.
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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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theogre
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FEB 03, 10:17 AM
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wgpierce
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FEB 04, 01:42 AM
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Well, it's always good to know that you can just manually crank the motors up and disconnect them. At least you can still drive your Fiero!! 
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fierofool
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FEB 04, 08:32 AM
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I think few have ever seen a set of bumpstops intact. Either Genration 1 or 2. Generation 1 bumpstops are shown in one of my posts earlier in this thread. They straddle the ribs inside the plastic gear.
I have a full set of Generation 2 gears from a low mileage wrecked 87GT, I had to rebuild them because one of the motors wouldn't lift the headlight. When I disassembled them, I found that the aluminum clutch portion had spun on the motor output shaft. It's likely pressed onto the shaft during manufacture. Some have drilled through and inserted a pin successfully, while some have told me that after doing that, the shaft or aluminum clutch piece sheered.
When I opened the Generation 2 motors from the 87GT and found the clutch had spun on the output shaft, I also found that the original bumpstops were still in good shape. The material is hard plastic. They have a hole through the core. My theory is that gives them a crush zone in the event that something goes wrong with another part of the system.
The motors will continue to work with crushed bumpstops. At least until all the crumbs vacate the cavities between the clutch and gear. Just yesterday, I opened up a pair of motors that were still operating, yet 1 would continue to spin at the end of it's up or down travel. These motors looked almost new, inside and out. I assume they were aftermarket or rebuilds because they had clear decal part number decals on them.
I've never seen any crumbled bumpstops as clean as these. They looked like fine granulated sugar. Even the color was near white. The grease inside was still just a little darker than Vaseline Petroleum Jelly. They both still worked just because the bumpstop crumbs were still providing enough friction between the clutch hub and the gear.
As TheOgre pointed out earlier. Something too hard will cause another part to break. There is always a weak point in anything mechanical. Personally, I'd rather use something a little softer to absorb shock, have to rebuild from time to time, than to have a part fail that isn't available any longer, or have to go through the trouble and expense to convert to some form of flushmount.
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theogre
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FEB 04, 08:26 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by wgpierce:
Well, it's always good to know that you can just manually crank the motors up and disconnect them. At least you can still drive your Fiero!! |
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Only because the shaft had some resistance. Many times shaft will just spin and do nothing even w/ hood open.
| quote | Originally posted by fierofool:
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When I disassembled them, I found that the aluminum clutch portion had spun on the motor output shaft. It's likely pressed onto the shaft during manufacture. Some have drilled through and inserted a pin successfully, while some have told me that after doing that, the shaft or aluminum clutch piece sheered.
When I opened the Generation 2 motors from the 87GT and found the clutch had spun on the output shaft, I also found that the original bumpstops were still in good shape. The material is hard plastic. They have a hole through the core. My theory is that gives them a crush zone in the event that something goes wrong with another part of the system. |
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I betting Metal is cast w/ shaft in the mold and shaft has "ears" stamped to keep traction. I think this because you can't pull shaft out of metal after damage is done. I will take dead shaft apart to see later.
Hard hollow plastic pins are someone else Derlin pins like Eckler's. http://www.ecklerscorvette....r-set-1988-1996.html
OEM pins are tanish color and solid and left over pieces feels about like chalk dust to baby powder.
Dorman are milk or clear solid pins.
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fierofool
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FEB 04, 09:36 PM
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The ones I took out that had white powder may be Dorman. Definitely didn't smell like Columbian.
The ones with center holes from the wrecked 87 were amber. I really believe they were original because of mileage and that it was put in a barn when totaled in 1990.
I think you may be right about the casting because the brass bushing is cast into it. The shaft may be knurled to provide grip and bonding.[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 02-04-2017).]
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theogre
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FEB 06, 03:29 PM
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New motors are now in the car. They are noticeably quieter then old motors and not black finish but fits the same.
For the dead one... confirmed shaft just spins. Can turn easy all day w/ a very small wrench to grip the mounting flats for lift link.
Took quick look at the gear etc. Gear is same as above and Rodney's dowels still look new.
No time to do more, maybe tomorrow.
Posts here and elsewhere tell how tried to fix the shaft (Most fail soon after.) but never find what inside.
I have extra parts so I'll see with this one.
I forgot brass on the Output shaft... Might be simple thrust bearing (Because teeth load the shaft axially while rotate the part.) or more complicated.
I'm trying to section the pot metal and maybe brass if needed w/o totally destroying it to show exactly how they work together. Maybe a better fix for dead ones too.[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-13-2017).]
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theogre
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APR 12, 09:56 PM
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Late but as "promised" Driver's side Gen2 HL Motor output shaft sectioned. (Finally had time and weather to work outdoors.)
1.The shaft is just knurled to hold/grip when the Aluminum is cast on the shaft.
2.The brass bearing is only a thrust bearing to handle heavy loads when the motor is lifting the headlight. Higher load because has to push up the doors too but door springs fight that.
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Yes the Shaft is "Weak" but GM made the motor with dowels to fail easier then the shaft.
Even plastic gears with Delrin pins can beat the shaft and break it as I did after rotating the gear to give me more time. In my case was ~4 years but I drive ~1000miles/year and mostly during daytime.
Many vendors including Rodney sell Metal gears but just mean the shaft will fail and likely soon if you regularly drive at night or in bad weather.
I'm not the only one that have problems w/ Delrin for this use. Several posts over the years with dead output shaft just on PFF.
Some have pinning/screwed the shaft parts but many that tried fixing have problems and soon fail again.
I betting most have sold or junk the car w/ Delrin pin before having problems.
Dorman told me the pins are "Thermoplastic polyurethane (TPU)." I guess same family/class but different formulas... Old version milky color as posted in that page, new version is clear and some say they're better. In general TPU plastics have Impact strength and are Flexible so they can absorb/buffer the loads as showed above vs Delrin passes all shock and other loads directly from gear to the shaft and other way around.
You're better off to using Dorman pins and deal with the fact they might be "weak" or very likely others things will overload and break them or just use Cardone new motors. If you do have HL lift and/or door problems then even new motors could fail but Cardone have a warranty.
Metal gears alone cost ~$40 each but new motors can be as low as ~$90 each and no headaches.
Other notes:
Shaft is not hard steel and can be easily cut by the hacksaw used here. In fact was hard not to damage the shaft cutting thru the aluminum. (or worse maybe is pot metal?)
Likely I could pry off the bearing to save it but molding flash said the bearing is in the mold too so I cut it.
The damaged gear has "healed" itself somewhat likely because the white grease and moving damage area so won't get loaded at end of travel. The cracks show above are there but not so obvious and if I didn't mark them likely couldn't find them now.
(edit to fix images.)
ETA 10-2-19 I finally found my Dorman part but won't fit w/o doing something to file/sand them down. IOW Likely Works but not a direct fit. I only bought to have spares on hand so didn't try to file them. Note: This Dorman part is made to fit Ford PW motor & likely fit them w/o sanding.
E2A--> Easiest way to install the Dorman 74410 is...
Grab a pin on flat sides w/ pliers then sand off the round side to fit. Small "Water pump" pliers & some other types may hold better.
Any power sander w/ 120 to 220 grid works well & doesn't "eat" too fast. Don't use a grinder w/ high RPM.
If no power tool available, tape sand paper to a flat surface.
They don't need a lot of work. ALMOST fit as is & I just sanded off the factory surface so the gear fit the driver lobes w/o effort.
It doesn't matter if you sand & get a minor flat spot(s). Motor will force a flat spot over time w/ door closed & pins stay loaded enough to deform.
Even if OE or Cardone motors break these pins... I'll install these again & check for other problems. Better then buying Any Delrin pins so will break the gear, output shaft or both next time door jams for any reason.[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 12-29-2023).]
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theogre
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APR 13, 03:57 PM
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Here's the bearing off...
I think the bears is in the mold before casting because of the flow wraps around and in the bearing.
Bearing is tight on the shafts but bonded so likely can carefully pry it off and even reverse it if it has wear issues.
The metal maybe pot metal because it melts very fast, like small scraps melt is ~2 seconds and flows easy.
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Rodney
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APR 13, 04:37 PM
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Failures like this are extremely rare. I've seen a few spin on the shaft thru the years. Maybe a few dozen over many many years. I've sold thousands of kits. Firebirds and C4 Corvettes also. If spinning on the shaft was a common problem it would be discussed here on a regular basis. It is not because it rarely happens. At most a handful of people have contacted me thru the years with slipping aluminum pieces. That is Fiero, Firebird and C4 Corvettes combined. C4 Corvettes take a lot more abuse and some (not all that uncommon) actually strip the teeth out of the factory plastic gear. Yet very, very few C4 Corvette owners ever have the aluminum piece strip on the knurled shaft. ------------------
Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
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My left D side motor's gear or output shaft, shown above, finally died last night. (Note that I drive ~1000 miles per year and mostly during daytime last few years now.)
If you keep the car and drive at night... You might get luckly and last years but some only last a few days to months before next weak area breaks and likely means the gear as shown above or the output shaft.