Here's a link with some recent tests conducted on an L98 383 using various combinations of TPI setups. The end of page 1 and onto page 2 shows HP and Torque off Dyno runs conducted. While this engine was bored out a little, used Trick Flow heads, hotter than stock cam, it is a road map to getting more out of your L98. I'm not going to go into everything done to mine, just sharing this info:
So Calikid, that dyno has really got me interested in a L98 swap. What kind of electronics are required to run your motor and does anyone make a premade harness and computer to run the L98. What kind of bang for the buck does this swap give you. I see there is a huge aftermarket for this motor, what kind of motor could i get with about 6,000.
Painless wiring makes a harness to put a TPI engine in just about anything. You need the ECM for that engine. If you mod the engine, you'll need to burn a chip to properly tune it - likely requiring some dyno tuning to get everything out of whatever combination you do.
TPI engines have been hot rodded countless ways and swapped into countless types of cars.
So Calikid, that dyno has really got me interested in a L98 swap. What kind of electronics are required to run your motor and does anyone make a premade harness and computer to run the L98. What kind of bang for the buck does this swap give you. I see there is a huge aftermarket for this motor, what kind of motor could i get with about 6,000.
First let me say that I've got a rough estimated $27,000 into my car. Secondly, I wouldn't recommend for someone in High School to venture into these waters (unless they're rich of course). There are more important things to be doing at your age. Not trying to lecture, just giving advise.
As already posted, you need the ECM, and preferably the engine wire harness with the purchased engine. In addition the ECM out of your Fiero should be supplied along with it for modification/fabrication. Here's the outfit that did mine, and everything works same as the electrics in the Fiero right down to pulling correct error codes: http://www.hotrodlane.cc/
Chips have to be burned for the setup, I had one burned with the "hot setup", and one burned for "moderate setup". My original thought was to swap in the moderate chip for long trips, but the moderate chip never seems to find it way into the nest !
As far as "Bang for the buck" you can't beat a properly built up SBC, and the L98 (preferably the Corvette engine) is no exception to this rule. It wil treat you very well without the long term durability issues of pumped up smaller engines.
Calikid, Okay i understand everything you have said. Now i am by no means rich and thats why i am going to be buying a 3.4 DOHC and putting it in over next summer. But i was wanting to hear what you had to say about the L98. After Highschool i am going to be swapping a SBC into my fiero and im taking the time and deciding which V8 i am going to go with. I dont like stock engines so any SBC i get, i am going to be modifying and building up. I just want to have one that responds well with the mods and runs well enough to drive it on the street. If i do go the L98 route, then i will definitely buy the motor complete with harness and computer and i am going to make sure it comes out of a vette. When it comes time to do the electrical issues ill be sure to give those people in your link a call and see what they can do for me. I am going to be getting the archie kit to install it, and i know you use the highly modified Zumalt kit. A + to you Cali for the helpful info and could i also get that companys name that built you those axles you have in it right now? Thanks Daniel
could i also get that companys name that built you those axles you have in it right now?
Thanks Daniel ! Just saw a picture of your car with description posted in another thread. You are commended for achieving what you have so far on your car, and still being in High School, my hat is off you !!!
You can get the custom fabricated Halfshaft Assemblies through:
Evola Service 250 North Rose Mt. Clemens, MI 48083 586-463-8380 Ask for Todd or Keith
The cost is now up to a touch over $1,700, and I believe they need your halfshafts, required for the end units, and getting the exact length right to order. Expensive, yes, but I was shearing Mark Williams Enterprises racing axles every 10,000 miles. These custom fabricated assemblies are guaranteed for as long as you own the car. Knowing what I know about this outfit:
I'd even go the extra measure, by having Evola Service cryo all the parts prior to assembly. With strenght increases of 100 to 400% with this treatment, you can't go wrong with the $3.50 per pound treatment fee. In addition, if your going to use a getrag, or auto, have all the parts treated (works equally well for ferrous and non-ferrous parts).
A note on the Corvette L98 Aluminum Heads (used by quite a few hot rodders), they can be ported / fitted with larger valves to produce results very close to aftermarket heads. Lower stock aluminum intake porting also produces some very good results. You just have to way what you can correctly do yourself, v/s shop expense, v/s purchase after market replacement parts. Mix in a nice cam, with 1.6:1 Roller Rockers setup, and nobody will wipe the smile off your face.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 12-09-2005).]
I have to bow to California kids experience with the SBC/Fiero combination, but I played with one for quite a while when I had my Formula Firebird. The final combination I had was a GM crate CC350 engine. Similar to the ZZ3 without some of the goodies. I had a pair of Trick Flow G1 Twisted Wedge heads, GM LT4 Hot cam, Kieth Black 10:1 Hyperteutetic pistons, LT1 manifold (modified similar to John Millican: http://www.lt1intake.com/ ), Accel DFI, etc...It was a lot of fun to wipe the smiles off smug LT1 Camaros and Firebirds, and I could run with the LS1's. Mustangs were not a problem at all. Prior to the LT1 intake, I hogged out the upper and lower plenums on the LTR tuned port setup, using siamesed SLP runners. That setup would run up to about 5500 RPMs before dropping off. (Normal TPI is good to about 4800 RPMs). If I were to do it again, I would go with a stout GM crate engine, topped with AFR heads, and a LT1 or MiniRam intake. Then I'd have to figure out what to put behind it...
Check out the archives at www.thirdgen.org for lots of SBC info. Good luck with your project...
hmmm...i just purchased a tpi system myself...i believe out of an 86 camaro..minus wiring harness.. been debatiing which route to go with this set up...but i see some doors are definitely open and possibilities seem endless...thanks for posting..tim..
Yep Bob, they can be fun engines, mine pulls hard to 6,200 rpm before the runners peak over rather sudden, set my shift point 5,900.
And how exactly do you know this?
You don't. I swore up and down my Z34 pulled to 7200rpm. Then I stopped being rediculous, got it on a dyno, and low and behold power fell off hard after 6000. Quite a bit different than what my at home dyno said.
Furthermore, you don't "set shift points" with manuals. Also, if your car pulls hard to 6200rpm (Which I find highly unlikely do to your intake manifold resonance), why not shift at 6200? Better yet, why not put the thing on a dyno and figure out your actual shift points using your gear ratios and tires sizes?
You know NOTHING about the power curve of yoru enigne, you know nothing about its air:fuel ratio, and you have absolutely no idea on optimum shift points. Just like you have no idea on whether it's making 100, or 800hp.
Also, I don't think you're in a very good position to be talking about dyno numbers, especially other people's numbers.
------------------ "all pushrod motor are better than the dohc because it has less rotational mass" -rick17, MyMonte member, owner of a 3100 Monte Carlo LS
[This message has been edited by AaronZ34 (edited 12-10-2005).]
Somebody smell something? Oh, Aaron decided to share his "wisdom."
Furthermore, Tom's car isn't an automatic - so what the fark are you talking about? Setting shift points simply means the point he chooses to shift at. Try basic reading comprehension before you go off in your mad rush to pwn somebody. You only make yourself look like more of a fool. (and I didn't think that was possible)
The idle set up for the TPI is to use the 90 modle ECM as you no longer have the electronic spark control in the engine compartment as it was moved inside the ECM .The cold start injector was done away with as the ECM adds extra fuel for the start cycle. Where the cold start injector was can be blocked off. The EGR valve can be blocked off & programed out. The ECM can be programed for speed densidy [ no mass air flow meter] only a MAP is used. Or it can be set up for MAF where both a mass air flow meter & a MAP is used. IF you use the small HEI distributor the coil can be mounted any where . The corvette had larger runners. The driveability ,the simplisty & relibity of the TPI is hard to beat.
Okay first of all Aaron, as others have said Toms car is not a automatic, its a 5 spd. getrag. He has a tach with a shift light, so most likely he set his shift light at 5900 and he simply said that is his shift point. And telling him that he doesnt know anything about his air/fuel ratios or his optimium shift points is definitely not your place to say and you dont $hit about him personally so you dont have any right to go off saying things like that.
Hey................the Village Idiot returns again, I feel so honored by your presence !
I know it's beyond your means, but you should try to read up on someone's car before you make posts like that. Again you proved you don't know what the hell your talking about. Now go back to RFT and see if you can stir them up.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 12-10-2005).]
I hear what your saying. My shift light is also set about 3-400 rpm lower than peak cause there is no way i can shift it fast enough. So if i set my shift light earlier i can hit the shift at the right rpm.
One thing though... How the hell do you pump $27,000 USD (27 THOUSAND) into a Fiero? Funny thing is that myself and a friend had a "how much money have you spent on your car" talk and we both max'd out at approx $16,000 CDN thats with a full body off paint job, custom suspension, rims and wheels, upgraded brake package, new engine, new tranny, axles, redone interior, stereo and all the little bits inbetween...
Where did you spend the other $10,000?
[This message has been edited by DOHC_SWAPPER (edited 12-10-2005).]
I hear what your saying. My shift light is also set about 3-400 rpm lower than peak cause there is no way i can shift it fast enough. So if i set my shift light earlier i can hit the shift at the right rpm.
One thing though... How the hell do you pump $27,000 USD (27 THOUSAND) into a Fiero? Funny thing is that myself and a friend had a "how much money have you spent on your car" talk and we both max'd out at approx $16,000 CDN thats with a full body off paint job, custom suspension, rims and wheels, upgraded brake package, new engine, new tranny, axles, redone interior, stereo and all the little bits inbetween...
Interesting test. Would like to see it on a chassis dyno with accessories, though. Adding drivetrain loss, etc. , those numbers aren't quite as impressive as first glance would suggest.
------------------ My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build. You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped mine's mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs.
HeHe, my car is not even a show stopper and I bet I have over 16,000 into the car over the years. Granted that is 12 years, 5 motors and 5 tranny's, 3 diffrent sets of wheels and countless tires.
But back to the topic.
The L98 is a great motor to hop up, and if my 2.8 had not gone south and the 4.9 finding it rather easily (engine came from a running car got the entire harness, ecm and all the goodies for $695 USD) I probably would have went with a SBC. But with any luck cam and intake should get me up to a real V8 power curve. Once done, I will put it on a Dyno and see what it makes.
------------------ 85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com
Interesting test. Would like to see it on a chassis dyno with accessories, though. Adding drivetrain loss, etc. , those numbers aren't quite as impressive as first glance would suggest.
Ya, those accessories and manual trans just kick the crap out of HP and Torque. Typically the alternator requires 1.5-2 HP, the electric water pump they used gains 6 HP over an under drive pump (I use a smaller Ford pulley on mine), and the Fiero Getrag has been mentioned as a 10% loss. But hey, you have to keep in mine that nearly all engine dyno runs are done the exact same way, to bad your not impressed..
Ya, those accessories and manual trans just kick the crap out of HP and Torque. Typically the alternator requires 1.5-2 HP, the electric water pump they used gains 6 HP over an under drive pump (I use a smaller Ford pulley on mine), and the Fiero Getrag has been mentioned as a 10% loss. But hey, you have to keep in mine that nearly all engine dyno runs are done the exact same way, to bad your not impressed..
I have said this many times and I'll say it again. The TPI is the cheapest fuel injected SBC you cam build. You use your stock V6 harness (free) and add two injectors and extend couple sensors. Then use a 165 ECM ($50) with the BIN for Australian SBC cars. You will need to tune your PROM (stock is for 5.0) but if you are changing cams, heads, etc you will need it anyway. thirdgen.org is to TPI like Pennocks is to 2.8 Fieros. Search there and most rave about the AFR 190s for the TPIs. For intakes there is a lot of positives for the Holley mini ram which for $299 (Summit) is a great value. You will need a $170+ fuel rail kit too but still is cheaper than a set of SLP runners and an Edelbrock lower intake. And of course you will need custom PROM to benefit from it
One thing though... How the hell do you pump $27,000 USD (27 THOUSAND) into a Fiero? Funny thing is that myself and a friend had a "how much money have you spent on your car" talk and we both max'd out at approx $16,000 CDN thats with a full body off paint job, custom suspension, rims and wheels, upgraded brake package, new engine, new tranny, axles, redone interior, stereo and all the little bits inbetween...
Where did you spend the other $10,000?
I can't believe that at all, unless you did all the work yourself. There is no way that you farmed any of it out for that kinda monies, heck it would have cost more than that JUST for all the NEW parts!
------------------ still plays with cars..
[This message has been edited by Kameo Kid (edited 12-10-2005).]
One thing though... How the hell do you pump $27,000 USD (27 THOUSAND) into a Fiero? Funny thing is that myself and a friend had a "how much money have you spent on your car" talk and we both max'd out at approx $16,000 CDN thats with a full body off paint job, custom suspension, rims and wheels, upgraded brake package, new engine, new tranny, axles, redone interior, stereo and all the little bits inbetween...
Where did you spend the other $10,000?
Obviously on things you can't see, but the list would be very long, and doesn't go un-noticed by the Judges in Hot Rod Shows.
So to get 410 crank hp they had a 383 with a high 10-1 compression ratio, huge cam, long tube headers, trick flow heads and other high performance parts.
What exactly does this engine share with California Kid? Other than the style of intake, nothing.
Long tube headers is a major factor in making hp, not really possible in a fiero without alot of innovation. As Indy said, accessories also make a big difference.
No I stand by my previous comment. I built my car for 16,000 cdn give or take....not counting a previous engine swap cause thats not the car now. But its true. I can PM you a list of what everything cost me. And yes I do do my own work.
I read your history thread Cali. How did you get a 1.17 lateral G on a skid pad with stock fiero suspension and aftermarket shocks and poly bushings?!
Ok im not attacking you or anything... Just really curious. Cause if you can hit a 1.17 with basically a rebuilt stock suspension, hell i should hit 1.50G's in my car! Sweet!
Here's a link with some recent tests conducted on an L98 383 using various combinations of TPI setups. The end of page 1 and onto page 2 shows HP and Torque off Dyno runs conducted. While this engine was bored out a little, used Trick Flow heads, hotter than stock cam, it is a road map to getting more out of your L98. I'm not going to go into everything done to mine, just sharing this info:
The cube difference between the 383 and 350 using an optimum ballpark of 1 HP per cubic inch, would result in a 33 HP difference.
Looks like I should re-post this a little lower in the thread, since some people can't read very well, and make a lot of incorrect Assumptions. I made this post to assist anyone here with a L98, or is considering a L98, because it's a very good, affordable alternative when considering a V8 swap.
Crazyone, I know you've got a hardon for me, but posting things that aren't true is really showing everyone else what a jackass you are:
Your comments " What exactly does this engine share with California Kid? Other than the style of intake, nothing. " Is incorrect. My engine is a 91 Corvette, which came with 10:1 compression, and no I haven't lost any of it. I run a TPIS L98 Super Profile Cam with 1.6:1 roller rockers, modified heads, and other performance parts. The thread is about ways to improve the L98 with modifications over factory stock parts. As far as long tube headers, you can't run them in a Fiero anyway, so it's rather a mute point, I think most people with some common sense understand this.
As I stated in my first post, this thread isn't about me, or my engine, just passing on some test information for those that might find it useful. If you've got something positive to assist someone doing an L98 buildup, then post it here, or get the hell out of the thread. Same goes to a couple others that jumped into the thread trying to divert attention. I've seen what's been posted on RFT, which is a joke in itself, like a bunch of little kids with no hard facts, jumping on someone.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 12-11-2005).]
No I stand by my previous comment. I built my car for 16,000 cdn give or take....not counting a previous engine swap cause thats not the car now. But its true. I can PM you a list of what everything cost me. And yes I do do my own work.
I read your history thread Cali. How did you get a 1.17 lateral G on a skid pad with stock fiero suspension and aftermarket shocks and poly bushings?!
Ok im not attacking you or anything... Just really curious. Cause if you can hit a 1.17 with basically a rebuilt stock suspension, hell i should hit 1.50G's in my car! Sweet!
The car is not stock regarding the suspension system, the 88 Cradle has be heavily modified, and honestly I don't know if the front suspension parts have been modified a little by the previous owner (they would have to be compared directly with stock parts to determine that (haven't needed to replace anything). As I've posted before, it was run under ideal conditions at GM's Milford Proving Grounds, with adjustments made by their people to attain that best run number over multiple runs. Every car has to be dialed in with parts/adjustments, just because it works on mine, doesn't mean it will produce the same effect on yours.
The car is not stock regarding the suspension system, the 88 Cradle has be heavily modified, and honestly I don't know if the front suspension parts have been modified a little by the previous owner (they would have to be compared directly with stock parts to determine that (haven't needed to replace anything). As I've posted before, it was run under ideal conditions at GM's Milford Proving Grounds, with adjustments made by their people to attain that best run number over multiple runs. Every car has to be dialed in with parts/adjustments, just because it works on mine, doesn't mean it will produce the same effect on yours.
okay thanks for the info. I agree with you about "what works for me wont necissarily work for you" but again...we both have the same car. How was your cradle modified to improve your handling? Its hardmounted obviously (cause it was an 88). there is little or no rear bumpsteer (again cause its a 88) so what was done to the cradle to take it further? I cant really see a alignment taking you from a stock fiero G load to 1.17...unless GM MPG gave your car some serious camber (? top of the wheel angled in)
I have a solid mounted cradle / rear coil overs / rear poly A arms / rear sway bar / front tubular suspension / front coil overs / and agressive alignment cause I autocross...
Do you think I could do better than 1.17G on a skid pad?
[This message has been edited by DOHC_SWAPPER (edited 12-11-2005).]
As I stated in my first post, this thread isn't about me, or my engine, just passing on some test information for those that might find it useful. If you've got something positive to assist someone doing an L98 buildup, then post it here, or get the hell out of the thread. Same goes to a couple others that jumped into the thread trying to divert attention. I've seen what's been posted on RFT, which is a joke in itself, like a bunch of little kids with no hard facts, jumping on someone.
Excuse me. Is there something WRONG with saying it would be interesting to get the same motor on a chassis dyno?
No we don't have the same car, far from it. Best way to find out what your car will pull is to have it tested.
I could be wrong, but it appears we have another thread hi-jack in progress.
Sorry if im hi-jacking here but i really want to know... Ofcourse we have the same "platform"...so same car. Thats why im very interested in your suspension set up. Only difference is your a 5spd V8 and im a 4spd V6 turbo.
DOHC_SWAPPER, you should know by now that slapping a shopping cart full of parts on a car doesn't automatically give perfect results. If that were the case, all NASCAR Cup and Busch Series cars would always finish the race at the same time.
You listed a lot of parts for your suspension, but you didn't list... spring rates you're using ride height (lower is not automatically better) what dampers you're using and how they're adjusted what's your corner to corner weight distribution? what swaybars are you using? What does you tubular front suspension change? It could hurt handling, if not set up properly what wheels and tires are you running? what air pressures are you running? what are your alignment specs?
Also, a car set up for AutoX may not generate higher lateral g than one setup specifically for skidpad testing. Transient response and turn in is much more important in AutoX.
Even if 2 people have exactly the same shopping list, the car's will not perform identically. It's all in how you set the vehicle up. Anyone who's ever built a car that involved more than slapping in a cam and headers should know this.
As for engine mods - porting is everything. That's why many race teams conceal their intake manifolds, so you can't tell what they're doing. And that's just the parts you can see. Most heads can be ported to flow much better than stock. And again, that gets back to the setup. You want to port them to flow best in their intended usage. Awesome .700" lift flow numbers mean nothing if you're running a .525" lift cam.
DOHC_SWAPPER, you should know by now that slapping a shopping cart full of parts on a car doesn't automatically give perfect results. If that were the case, all NASCAR Cup and Busch Series cars would always finish the race at the same time.
You listed a lot of parts for your suspension, but you didn't list... spring rates you're using ride height (lower is not automatically better) what dampers you're using and how they're adjusted what's your corner to corner weight distribution? what swaybars are you using? What does you tubular front suspension change? It could hurt handling, if not set up properly what wheels and tires are you running? what air pressures are you running? what are your alignment specs?
Also, a car set up for AutoX may not generate higher lateral g than one setup specifically for skidpad testing. Transient response and turn in is much more important in AutoX.
Even if 2 people have exactly the same shopping list, the car's will not perform identically. It's all in how you set the vehicle up. Anyone who's ever built a car that involved more than slapping in a cam and headers should know this.
Okay fair enough. But...if Calikid can say very little about his suspension and claim 1.17Gs.... Why not say that a superior suspension (part wise) can do better?
been debatiing which route to go with this set up...but i see some doors are definitely open and possibilities seem endless...thanks for posting..tim..
